ISME getting in bed with the far right

Tony EH

Deleted User wrote: »

We have far left parties with seats in the Dail, on councils, etc.

But sure you can fool yourself all you like.

No...we don't.

They're just "far left" to people like you.

ThunbergsAreGo

mike_cork wrote: »

Gript would be centre right to me.
I mean I don't agree with everything they publish article about....But they aren't exactly the neo-fascists some people on twitter seem to portray them as.

Tells you more about the people Tweeting than about GRIPT

Tony EH

mike_cork wrote: »

Gript would be centre right to me.

Gript and McGuirk would certainly qualify as quite right wing. More to the right than a lot of commentators. But labelling them as "far right" is going over the top.

Geuze

Tony EH wrote: »

We don't have "far left" or "far right" in this country.

Is it not reasonable to say the following:

PBP = far-left?
Solidarity = far-left?

Geuze

Geuze wrote: »

Is it not reasonable to say the following:

PBP = far-left?
Solidarity = far-left?

No. Tony is the authority on political science in Ireland.

(In his mind)

Geuze

Deleted User wrote: »

No. Tony is the authority on political science in Ireland.

(In his mind)

He has made a mistake over on the LPT thread, and I am glad to provide the correct information.

I am not as confident here, and if he is a political scientist, I would like to hear his opinion.

I feel PBP, Boyd-Barrett, Coppinger, etc,. are far-left.

Geuze

Geuze wrote: »

I feel PBP, Boyd-Barrett, Coppinger, etc,. are far-left.

They would agree.

Burt Renaults

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

I’ve no dog in the fight and only became aware of gript about 2 months ago

Two points I’d make -

They are certainly not “far right”. Yes they have an agenda which is more right wing but all media organizations have agendas. The Irish times for example is clearly very much left wing.

If you regard the Irish Times as being "very much left wing" I'd say you absolutely have a dog in the fight, however hard you try to deny it. Either that or you don't fully understand what 'left-wing' means and wrongly equate it with liberalism. The Irish Times' default editorial stance is soft liberal, not left-wing.

Far-right or not, Gript is a very right-wing website. According to its editor, John McGuirk, some of its writers and one of its directors are members of the far-right organisation Youth Defence. Which is fine. Nobody has to read it.

Tony EH

Geuze wrote: »

Is it not reasonable to say the following:

PBP = far-left?
Solidarity = far-left?

No.

Tony EH

Deleted User wrote: »

No. Tony is the authority on political science in Ireland.

(In his mind)

You can be a dickhead if you wish, but I wouldn't consider either of those entities to be "far". In the same way as I wouldn't consider McGuirk as "far".

"Far" is an extremist position, and none of them actually qualify.

There's too much of a tendency to cry about far this and far that these days. When really all we have are quite moderate degrees in our general political circles.

Mad_maxx

Burt Renaults wrote: »

If you regard the Irish Times as being "very much left wing" I'd say you absolutely have a dog in the fight, however hard you try to deny it. Either that or you don't fully understand what 'left-wing' means and wrongly equate it with liberalism. The Irish Times' default editorial stance is soft liberal, not left-wing.

Far-right or not, Gript is a very right-wing website. According to its editor, John McGuirk, some of its writers and one of its directors are members of the far-right organisation Youth Defence. Which is fine. Nobody has to read it.

youth defence is not " far right "

Gript is centre right , it might appear quite conservative within the context of the overwhelmingly left liberal media in this country

Danzy

Tony EH wrote: »

No.

It's very reasonable to call pbp etc far left.

There may be others further on that spectrum but far left is reasonable.

Mad_maxx

Tony EH wrote: »

You can be a dickhead if you wish, but I wouldn't consider either of those entities to be "far". In the same way as I wouldn't consider McGuirk as "far".

"Far" is an extremist position, and none of them actually qualify.

There's too much of a tendency to cry about far this and far that these days. When really all we have are quite moderate degrees in our general political circles.

PBP and Paul Murphy believe private property and enterprise should not exist and that borders shouldnt either

thats extreme in my book

Hotblack Desiato

John Hutton wrote: »

They might be a crap publication who you don't like (although I think they have showed considerable journalistic courage in recent times, particularly around trans issues)

Hitting out at the most marginalised minority in society, how brave of them.

JPCN1 wrote: »

I see the readers of this far right threat to society and indeed civilisation have voted Peadar Tobin (60%) as their favourite party leader... Aontu being a party of the left.

They're right wing but would vote for a party composed of Lenin, Stalin, Marx and Trotsky if it promised to outlaw abortion.

It's the only possible reason anyone would vote for that utter lackwit Toibin.

Mike Murdock wrote: »

It's incredible that people still think there is a massive Far-Right in this country to rail against.

They're very small, but also very well resourced, and not all from within this country either. Political funding from outside the country is illegal.

Mike Murdock wrote: »

And the thing is, his two organisations are just two small pieces in a giant NGO Industry puzzle in this country.

A puzzle that we, the taxpayer, are funding. At least partially anyway.

90% of the vast NGO industry we are funding in this country are tentacles of the Catholic Church, using taxpayers' money to inflict their vile agenda on our most vulnerable citizens. State services should never be delivered by a church, never mind one with a sordid history of child abuse.

Geuze wrote: »

I voted against SSM and abortion, and I consider myself centre-right.

Well done on voting to take away rights from other people on issues that don't affect you, it's as magnanimous as f*ck. :rolleyes:

Hotblack Desiato

Mad_maxx wrote: »

youth defence is not " far right "

Youth Defence are far-right, they have form in beating up people they don't agree with.

Tony EH

Danzy wrote: »

It's very reasonable to call pbp etc far left.

There may be others further on that spectrum but far left is reasonable.

It's only "reasonable" depending how far to the right one is. The further away to the right, the further left they look.

Burt Renaults

Mad_maxx wrote: »

youth defence is not " far right "

Gript is centre right , it might appear quite conservative within the context of the overwhelmingly left liberal media in this country

Justin Barrett of the National Party left Youth Defence in 2004 because its methods were a bit extreme for his liking. Although I suppose you think he's moderate too? It's the very definition of a far-right organisation and has long-standing links with other European neo-Nazi groups.

Gript is not centre-right. It might not necessarily be helpful to label it as far-right because that lumps it in with people who are even more extreme, and who lack the ability to cloak their views in moderate language. It is very right-wing though. And that's grand.

John McGuirk is a horrible, sneaky little creep, with no morals whatsoever and a seriously dubious past, but he's Gript's biggest asset. Sufficiently media-literate to ensure that the site doesn't become too... obvious. I suspect when he inevitably falls out with Gript's owners (like he always does), it'll become less media savvy and will lurch even further to the right before fading into obscurity.

Tony EH wrote:

It's only "reasonable" depending how far to the right one is. The further away to the right, the further left they look.

With the exception of one or two tiny fringe organisations, they're about as left-wing as you're going to get in Irish politics, so I think it's not unreasonable to call them far-left.

Tony EH

Burt Renaults wrote: »

With the exception of one or two tiny fringe organisations, they're about as left-wing as you're going to get in Irish politics, so I think it's not unreasonable to call them far-left.

It doesn't work that way.

Dank Janniels

Mad_maxx wrote: »

youth defence is not " far right "

Gript is centre right , it might appear quite conservative within the context of the overwhelmingly left liberal media in this country

Funnily enough the guy who does The Liberal is self proclaimed right wing!

Geuze

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Well done on voting to take away rights from other people on issues that don't affect you, it's as magnanimous as f*ck. :rolleyes:

I did not do that.

I voted against acquiring the right to intentionally destruct unborn children.

I did not vote to remove an existing right from anybody.

I don't see abortion as the solution to any problem, there are better solutions.

These issues do affect me, as I live here.

Burt Renaults

Geuze wrote: »

These issues do affect me, as I live here.

If there was a referendum to repeal the Thirty-fourth Amendment in the morning, would you vote to repeal it, or do you accept that marriage equality ultimately hasn't affected you?

Rjd2

Tony EH wrote: »

We don't have "far left" or "far right" in this country.

Agreed.

I suspect their is an element online who secretly want a more creditable fascist movement to rally against to give their lives more meaning but thankfully we don't no matter how much people try to hype up a threat of them.

The national party got SWA in the election and while we see those on the streets causing trouble thankfully it is a very small and wretched minority who the police are able to keep on top off quite easily.

We don't have far left presence in politics, yep we have some online who make noise but they don't really matter in the grand scheme of things.

Eric Cartman

Seems like anything right of stalin is ‘far right’ these days

Eric Cartman

Tony EH wrote: »

We don't have "far left" or "far right" in this country.

I think we definitely have a far left , they have seats in the dail in the guise of PbP , thankfully coppinger didnt get back in.

We’ve had antifa show up at protests etc...


However for far right we have a handful of lunatics who are more just idiot reactionaries than ‘far right’ who thankfully have never had political power and likely wont

AndrewJRenko

Burt Renaults wrote: »

.

John McGuirk is a horrible, sneaky little creep, with no morals whatsoever and a seriously dubious past, but he's Gript's biggest asset. Sufficiently media-literate to ensure that the site doesn't become too... obvious. I suspect when he inevitably falls out with Gript's owners (like he always does), it'll become less media savvy and will lurch even further to the right before fading into obscurity.



.

McGuirk will be gone like a hot snot as soon as the money runs out. It's no coincidence that Gript is just one letter away from grift.

Tony EH

Rjd2 wrote: »

Agreed.

I suspect their is an element online who secretly want a more creditable fascist movement to rally against to give their lives more meaning but thankfully we don't no matter how much people try to hype up a threat of them.

The national party got SWA in the election and while we see those on the streets causing trouble thankfully it is a very small and wretched minority who the police are able to keep on top off quite easily.

We don't have far left presence in politics, yep we have some online who make noise but they don't really matter in the grand scheme of things.

Oh there are definitely those who'd love a fascist party here.

But apart from the odd fringe group, like Gemma and her band of gobshites, there isn't anyone who leans too deep that can have any part on our political stage. There just isn't any appetite for it.

The fact of the matter is that here in Ireland we have always had a large middle ground that makes up our political organisations, in major and minor, and the "fars" don't really get a look in because in general nobody's interested. That goes for both left and right.

Dyr

Lads, are we claiming that rich boy barrett, paul murphy and the rest of the loolahs are not on the extreme left?

Bit of cop on required

TomTomTim

Bambi wrote: »

Lads, are we claiming that rich boy barrett, paul murphy and the rest of the loolahs are not on the extreme left?

Bit of cop on required

You don't even need to get down to economics to find "extremes" on the left. Anyone who is rabidly politically correct, and supports censoring their rivals, is an extremist to me. Just because this type of behaviour has been normalized, doesn't make it any less extreme in my view. Sadly many of these types see themselves as moderates.

Mad_maxx

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Youth Defence are far-right, they have form in beating up people they don't agree with.

So do ANTIFA

Yellow_Fern

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

McGuirk will be gone like a hot snot as soon as the money runs out. It's no coincidence that Gript is just one letter away from grift.

First point, writers and journalists are entitled to get paid. There is nothing sinister about that. I detest this attitude that if you don't do something for free it's somehow 'unpure'. Second point, Why should they run out of money? They have steady base. People like me support them and I am not going anywhere.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

. It's no coincidence that Gript is just one letter away from grift.

Supporters like me know exactly what we support. To be honest I doubt you regularly read it and qualified to comment on its quality. Gript has outstanding journalism, namely their exclusives on Barbarie Kardashian, the Journal.ie non official fact checks marketed as fact checks and their excellent coverage on Irish-China relations.

paw patrol

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

their excellent coverage on Irish-China relations.

THIS!
Not one Irish mainstream media ever looked at that.
why? It's cos they are corrupt and want a free dinner.

Gript looks at things the other media doesn't , specifically where tax money is spent and I laud them over that.

People don't like McGuirk, I do. So what though.
Once the articles are correct we should all support investigative journalism like Gript.
Unless, of course, you either have a different agenda or if you are stunted intellectually where you rather read what Stefanie Preissner learned off a 6 year old or that some feminist loon from the IT is considering therapy cos a dog looked at her sideways.

Yellow_Fern

Bambi wrote: »

Lads, are we claiming that rich boy barrett, paul murphy and the rest of the loolahs are not on the extreme left?

Bit of cop on required

The likes of Claire Daily and Mick Wallace would be considerably more left than boyd barrett, at least boyd barrett will criticise China over Hong Kong. Claire Daily and Mick Wallace are on another plane.

Dyr

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

The likes of Claire Daily and Mick Wallace would be considerably more left than boyd barrett, at least boyd barrett will criticise China over Hong Kong. Claire Daily and Mick Wallace are on another plane.

RBB, Clare Daly, the rest of the dolly mixture in the Dáil, all trots, all the extreme left.

rossie1977

Bambi wrote: »

RBB, Clare Daly, the rest of the dolly mixture in the Dáil, all trots, all the extreme left.

Yes all extreme left like Stalin, Lenin, North Korea, Mao etc.. gtfo

We have at best leaning left in this country. Not one publicly elected official in the Dáil or Europe is as left wing as James Connolly was.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Seems like anything right of stalin is ‘far right’ these days

When you have people on here calling Boyd Barrett extreme left and FG, Merkel, May, Clintons 'left wing' the opposite is true.

Justin Barrett has spoke at far right rallies so yes Ireland like every western nation has a growing far right problem.

rossie1977

rossie1977 wrote: »

Yes all extreme left like Stalin, Lenin, North Korea, Mao etc.. gtfo out of here.

We have at best leaning left in this country. Not one publicly elected official in the Dáil or Europe is as left wing as James Connolly was.



When you have people on here calling Boyd Barrett extreme left and FG, Merkel, May, Clintons 'left wing' the opposite is true.

Only a moron would call the Clinton's, et al. left wing.

rossie1977

rossie1977 wrote: »

Justin Barrett has spoke at far right rallies so yes Ireland like every western nation has a growing far right problem.

Has he ever been elected to anything? A dislikeable hoor to most regular voters I think.

Bambi

Bambi wrote: »

Lads, are we claiming that rich boy barrett, paul murphy and the rest of the loolahs are not on the extreme left?

Bit of cop on required

I don't know. I don't agree with their views on public spending being far too low.

But their views on taxation being too high and government charges too much are attractive to me. The US republican party may be well in agreement with them there.

Mixed.:D

Yellow_Fern

Burt Renaults wrote: »

Justin Barrett of the National Party left Youth Defence in 2004 because its methods were a bit extreme for his liking. Although I suppose you think he's moderate too? It's the very definition of a far-right organisation and has long-standing links with other European neo-Nazi groups.

Gript is not centre-right. It might not necessarily be helpful to label it as far-right because that lumps it in with people who are even more extreme, and who lack the ability to cloak their views in moderate language. It is very right-wing though. And that's grand.

Youth defence was never radical. A few members without approval did some mad things 20 years ago but that is the height of it.

Burt Renaults wrote: »

John McGuirk is a horrible, sneaky little creep, with no morals whatsoever and a seriously dubious past, but he's Gript's biggest asset. Sufficiently media-literate to ensure that the site doesn't become too... obvious. I suspect when he inevitably falls out with Gript's owners (like he always does), it'll become less media savvy and will lurch even further to the right before fading into obscurity.

I am pretty sure being a nasty sneaky creep is a requirement of a good journalist. You have to be find the truth. I dont care about journalists personal morals. I care about if they follow journalistic ethics and McGuirk does. A lot of other gript people are more centre than McGuirk like Dwyer so if McGuirk left they would still have balance.

blanch152

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I think we definitely have a far left , they have seats in the dail in the guise of PbP , thankfully coppinger didnt get back in.

We’ve had antifa show up at protests etc...


However for far right we have a handful of lunatics who are more just idiot reactionaries than ‘far right’ who thankfully have never had political power and likely wont

The far left is a bit of a misnomer. We are the only country in Europe where the far left oppose property taxes and water charges. It shows up the limited intellectual capacity of those parties and their inherent populism first nature. It also doesn't help that many of the leading lights - Murphy, Boyd-Barrett, O'Broin - actually come from very privileged backgrounds and are more like student hacks than grown-up politicians.

Mad_maxx

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

First point, writers and journalists are entitled to get paid. There is nothing sinister about that. I detest this attitude that if you don't do something for free it's somehow 'unpure'. Second point, Why should they run out of money? They have steady base. People like me support them and I am not going anywhere.

Supporters like me know exactly what we support. To be honest I doubt you regularly read it and qualified to comment on its quality. Gript has outstanding journalism, namely their exclusives on Barbarie Kardashian, the Journal.ie non official fact checks marketed as fact checks and their excellent coverage on Irish-China relations.

I donated 150 quid to GRIPT last november , will do the same this november , better than paying RTE for left wing propoganda

amazing how a small little conservative outfit gets progressives ( who dominate public discourse ) so indignant ?

Mad_maxx

paw patrol wrote: »

THIS!
Not one Irish mainstream media ever looked at that.
why? It's cos they are corrupt and want a free dinner.

Gript looks at things the other media doesn't , specifically where tax money is spent and I laud them over that.

People don't like McGuirk, I do. So what though.
Once the articles are correct we should all support investigative journalism like Gript.
Unless, of course, you either have a different agenda or if you are stunted intellectually where you rather read what Stefanie Preissner learned off a 6 year old or that some feminist loon from the IT is considering therapy cos a dog looked at her sideways.

McGuirk is a little smug admittedly but the ire he causes in some is bizarre , hes polite to the point of being almost annoyingly so and can take criticism on the chin , hes very affable on Twitter

Mad_maxx

Bambi wrote: »

RBB, Clare Daly, the rest of the dolly mixture in the Dáil, all trots, all the extreme left.

SF have plenty of far left too , Eoin o Broin to name one

Yellow_Fern

Burt Renaults wrote: »

Justin Barrett of the National Party left Youth Defence in 2004 because its methods were a bit extreme for his liking. Although I suppose you think he's moderate too? It's the very definition of a far-right organisation and has long-standing links with other European neo-Nazi groups.

Let me clear I in no way support the National Park but this line about neo nazis links is something that is such a sneaky writing trick. What they did was give talks at a far right group meeting. Does that really qualify as 'links'? When Fine Gael TD Jennifer Carroll MacNeill gave a talk to an Iranian terrorist group Mujahedin-e Khalq, no one reported that Jennifer Carroll MacNeill has links to this group. The same when Clare Daly went to meet Hashed al-Shaabi in Iraq, another extremist group. Don't get me wrong these politicians were criticised but it wasn't constantly held against them like it was the National Party. I want to be clear, Justin Barrett was wrong to give talks at these radical groups but there is a double standard being applied here.

Mad_maxx

rossie1977 wrote: »

Yes all extreme left like Stalin, Lenin, North Korea, Mao etc.. gtfo

We have at best leaning left in this country. Not one publicly elected official in the Dáil or Europe is as left wing as James Connolly was.



When you have people on here calling Boyd Barrett extreme left and FG, Merkel, May, Clintons 'left wing' the opposite is true.

Justin Barrett has spoke at far right rallies so yes Ireland like every western nation has a growing far right problem.

it only has a " far right problem " in the minds and hopes of NGO employed hustlers out for a well paying gig

AndrewJRenko

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Let me clear I in no way support the National Park but this line about neo nazis links is something that is such a sneaky writing trick. What they did was give talks at a far right group meeting. Does that really qualify as 'links'? When Fine Gael TD Jennifer Carroll MacNeill gave a talk to an Iranian terrorist group Mujahedin-e Khalq, no one reported that Jennifer Carroll MacNeill has links to this group. The same when Clare Daly went to meet Hashed al-Shaabi in Iraq, another extremist group. Don't get me wrong these politicians were criticised but it wasn't constantly held against them like it was the National Party. I want to be clear, Justin Barrett was wrong to give talks at these radical groups but there is a double standard being applied here.

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill apologised. She made a mistake.

Justin didn't.

Mad_maxx

been reading up on Youth Defence and bar opposing abortion , I cant get anything which suggest they are " far right "

far right in my mind is white supremacism , naked racism , anti semetism and espouses a large authoritarian state

Eric Cartman

Mad_maxx wrote: »

been reading up on Youth Defence and bar opposing abortion , I cant get anything which suggest they are " far right "

far right in my mind is white supremacism , naked racism , anti semetism and espouses a large authoritarian state

The last two could be considered corbynism on a good day.

Why anyone lumped abortion into a ‘far right’ sphere is beyond me, being against abortion is an apolitical and a moderate view regardless of what side people are on. Now forced abortions might be far something depending on reasons but this business of labeling any anti abortion group as ‘far right’ is just asinine

Tony EH

Eric Cartman wrote: »

The last two could be considered corbynism on a good day.

Corbyn was neither an anti semite, nor was he in favour of an authoritarian state in any way.

Eric Cartman

Tony EH wrote: »

Corbyn was neither an anti semite, nor was he in favour of an authoritarian state in any way.

we'll have to agree to disagree as I don't want to drag the thread off topic.

Dyr

Mad_maxx wrote: »

been reading up on Youth Defence and bar opposing abortion , I cant get anything which suggest they are " far right "

far right in my mind is white supremacism , naked racism , anti semetism and espouses a large authoritarian state

remove the white supremacism and you have the modern far left