Hyundai Ioniq 5

liamog

Hyundai are switching to a new platform (e-GMP) that will underpin next-gen EVs from Hyundai and Kia. Hyundai are also switching Ioniq to be an EV subbrand, similar to I.D. by Volkswagen.

One of the first cars will be the Ioniq 5. The Ioniq 5 is an electric crossover whose size is roughly the same as the current Hyundai Tucson. According to a spec sheet linked to an Austrian pre-order, the first edition will have an AWD system with 230kW of motor power, and acceleration of 5.2s 0-100km/h. The on-board AC charger is capable of 11kW. Notably the car comes with 800V DC charging, and will reportedly allow a 20% to 80% charge in 15 mins when charged via a capable DC charger (think Ionity). Range is expected to be 450km WLTP.

A formal reveal is expected in February.

That's a BEV I might actually buy that might make me consider ditching the Rex if the charge times are true and there's no major slow down in the Cold. In reality I have the Diesel Outlander but I never like driving a manual diesel after the i3.

Ireland's Public charging network needs to seriously improve.

Is the ESB 150 Kw chargers even capable of 800v ?

It does look quite small in that pic though ?

Probably take orders end of Q4 2021 ?

Bjorn did show there wasn't much of a difference in charge times between the Porsche Taycan electric 800v and I think it was the Model s at higher current.

800 volts will be more efficient and the Tesla ramps power down fast where as the Hyundai 800v system might be able to sustain this for much longer and it obviously does if those specs are to be believed and because there is less current the battery shouldn't heat up as much, the high current causes the Tesla battery to heat up fast.

liamog

Reports indicate June/July for the first deliveries in Europe, so wouldn't be surprised to see it as a late '21/Jan '22 car here.
It's 4,640mm long, 1,600mm tall and 1,890mm wide. For ref, the new Tucson is 4,475 x 1,645 x 1,850.

I'm definitely adding it to the list for our Ioniq replacement, I think 800V DC charger will be required for mainstream adoption, even if we don't see a broad network for a few years.

Black_Knight

liamog wrote: »

Reports indicate June/July for the first deliveries in Europe, so wouldn't be surprised to see it as a late '21/Jan '22 car here.
It's 4,640mm long, 1,600mm tall and 1,890mm wide. For ref, the new Tucson is 4,475 x 1,645 x 1,850.

I'm definitely adding it to the list for our Ioniq replacement, I think 800V DC charger will be required for mainstream adoption, even if we don't see a broad network for a few years.

Given the Tucson pricing, if expect it to be €40k+.

Sadly it'd mean having kearys as my service dealer, and they've been useless at every opportunity with my Ioniq.
If, when spec'd up against the likes of the id4, it was significantly cheaper I might consider it. But I feel I'd regret it (because of the dealer, not the car)

liamog

Black_Knight wrote: »

Given the Tucson pricing, if expect it to be €40k+.

Sadly it'd mean having kearys as my service dealer, and they've been useless at every opportunity with my Ioniq.
If, when spec'd up against the likes of the id4, it was significantly cheaper I might consider it. But I feel I'd regret it (because of the dealer, not the car)

I'm expecting it to come in between 40k and 45k too, have you considered using a non local dealer?

Black_Knight

liamog wrote: »

I'm expecting it to come in between 40k and 45k too, have you considered using a non local dealer?

It's crossed my mind, though the next 2 nearest dealer are both kearys. Not sure if they're all equally poor, but that ship has sailed for me.

Clonmel or Waterford city are the next 2. I bought my Ioniq from Boland's in Waterford, and while I've not dealt with them since (side from getting an email proving my 3rd service - done on the car before I bought it but not in the service book) they seemed more concerned for me and my satisfaction than kearys ever were. The range on the ioniq always meant they were never an option for servicing or warranty issues.

Edit:
I've taken this thread off topic already. We can leave it at that. When the time comes, we'll see what I do.

liamog

Let's hope Hyundai don't stick with the 15,000km servicing interval on the Ioniq 5.

Round Cable

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Is the ESB 150 Kw chargers even capable of 800v ?

The Ioniq 5 uses the electric motor to upgrade the voltage from 400V chargers to 800V to charge the battery. If it's a 800V charger then it goes straight to the battery.

the_amazing_raisin

Round Cable wrote: »

The Ioniq 5 uses the electric motor to upgrade the voltage from 400V chargers to 800V to charge the battery. If it's a 800V charger then it goes straight to the battery.

Yeah but you lose the advantage of the higher power an 800v charger offers. For example an Ionity charger will supply 350kW at 800V but 175kW at 400V

the_amazing_raisin

I'm very excited for this car, if I didn't have my heart set on the ID.4 then I'd be seriously considering this one

A couple of the things which I'm looking forward to

- 800V charging, faster charging and also potentially less battery heating issues
- Efficiency, the Kona, Ioniq and E-Niro are some of the most efficient EVs around, so Hyundai know how to make an efficient car
- Big battery, should be good for 400km range
- V2H/V2L, having a socket with a decent power output is really handy for camping, charging a laptop on the go or if there's a power outage

Some things which I'm a bit of a wait and see mode about are

- Tech, I think Hyundai tend to play it safe with the technology in their cars so I'm not expecting cutting edge
- Boot space, I feel the Kona in particular has a rubbish boot for the size of the car, hopefully this car has a decent bit of room
- Battery heating, Hyundai have had issues with cold battery charging in the past where the battery heater doesn't switch on when it probably should

I think this is gonna be a great car overall, maybe I'll try and convince the missus to get one

I'd say availability is going to be a major issue, particularly in 2021. If Austria got 150 first editions then I'd say Ireland will get more like 15 for this year. The E-Niro has so much demand that the prices keep going up rather than down.

So I imagine only a lucky few we'll be able to get one this year

It just possibly might be on my list 2nd hand for 2023 or 2024, I'll wait and see how the charging works out, long time I'd say before we have 350 Kw chargers. One thing for sure, unless there is a major change to infrastructure and charging times I won't be changing any time soon.

I did read somewhere where it starts at 50K USD which will be 55K Euro's here after VAT, whatever VRT extra and of course any import duty. Could see it cost a lot here.

unkel

That looks like a formidable candidate, would tick a lot of boxes for a lot of people. I fear €40k in Ireland is very optimistic though, that's barely more than a Kona. I expect it to be at least €45k, probably more like €50k. Which is fair enough for what you get. Tucson starts at €33k for comparison.

@cruisey1987 - agree with most of your post, but:

cruisey1987 wrote: »

- Tech, I think Hyundai tend to play it safe with the technology in their cars so I'm not expecting cutting edge

Really? What technology? As an example, the original 2016 Ioniq had a very well working autonomous driving level 2 system (ACC / LKAS / AEB) that was not a million miles off Tesla Autopilot. Standard on all cars, including the one I bought for €25k on the road. The vast majority of cars for sale for 2, 3 even 4 times that money did not have this (as standard) at the time.

cruisey1987 wrote: »

- Battery heating, Hyundai have had issues with cold battery charging in the past where the battery heater doesn't switch on when it probably should

In owning an Ioniq for 3 years, I have never noticed any issues. I didn't even notice it fast charging any slower in cold weather (or hot weather)

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

That looks like a formidable candidate, would tick a lot of boxes for a lot of people. I fear €40k in Ireland is very optimistic though, that's barely more than a Kona. I expect it to be at least €45k, probably more like €50k. Which is fair enough for what you get. Tucson starts at €33k for comparison.

@cruisey1987 - agree with most of your post, but:



Really? What technology? As an example, the original 2016 Ioniq had a very well working autonomous driving level 2 system (ACC / LKAS / AEB) that was not a million miles off Tesla Autopilot. Standard on all cars, including the one I bought for €25k on the road. The vast majority of cars for sale for 2, 3 even 4 times that money did not have this (as standard) at the time.



In owning an Ioniq for 3 years, I have never noticed any issues. I didn't even notice it fast charging any slower in cold weather (or hot weather)

The cold charging issues were after the ioniq28. The Kona/niro/soul and the new (ugh) ioniq38 all coldgate awfully. They changed chemistry.

the_amazing_raisin

unkel wrote: »

Really? What technology? As an example, the original 2016 Ioniq had a very well working autonomous driving level 2 system (ACC / LKAS / AEB) that was not a million miles off Tesla Autopilot. Standard on all cars, including the one I bought for €25k on the road. The vast majority of cars for sale for 2, 3 even 4 times that money did not have this (as standard) at the time.

My concerns would more be around the connectivity and infotainment side of things. As I recall, the E-Niro only just got the ability to check charge and preheat remotely, something the Leaf could do since 2012.

And the interface is good but it's not exactly what you'd call cutting edge

But certainly as you mentioned the assistance systems are excellent for cars in that price bracket

the_amazing_raisin

ELM327 wrote: »

The cold charging issues were after the ioniq28. The Kona/niro/soul and the new (ugh) ioniq38 all coldgate awfully. They changed chemistry.

I just remember watching Bjorn testing the E-Niro in winter and the battery heater didn't seem to switch on even when it was selected. The Ioniq38 he was testing also cold gated pretty badly

Kramer

cruisey1987 wrote: »

I'm very excited for this car, .........

I think this is gonna be a great car overall, maybe I'll try and convince the missus to get one

That's exactly how to do it - let the missus have the battery car & the boss then gets a proper, old school, petrol V8 .

unkel wrote: »

I fear €40k in Ireland is very optimistic though, that's barely more than a Kona. I expect it to be at least €45k, probably more like €50k. Which is fair enough for what you get. Tucson starts at €33k for comparison.

Is that €50k after the €10k taxpayer subsidy?
That would make it a €60k Hyundai :eek:.

If it's comparable to the Tuscon at €33k, charging an extra €27k would be shocking :pac:.

Silent Running

I haven't even taken delivery of my ID.3 yet and this is turning my head for my next car.

Maybe a January 2023 purchase, depending what's on offer then.

The big problem is that, historically, Hyundai Ireland have had a very bad habit of stripping a lot of the goodies out of their cars for the Irish market. That would turn me off completely!

unkel

Kramer wrote: »

Is that €50k after the €10k taxpayer subsidy?
That would make it a €60k Hyundai :eek:

No. That makes it a €50k Hyundai

As long as we are keeping the current subsidies though of course. They should really have been phased out already by now as they go straight into the manufacturers pockets. Hopefully with more competition this year, the government will decide to remove them (well, at least the €5k grant) and use that tax payers money in a more cost effective way. I'd say free motor tax for EVs will work wonders. Chape tax is a major bragging point in Ireland. I remember years ago a BMW520 from 2008 was worth €20k and the exact same model from 2007 was worth just €10k - no chape tax on that one

Round Cable

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Yeah but you lose the advantage of the higher power an 800v charger offers. For example an Ionity charger will supply 350kW at 800V but 175kW at 400V

I thought that was the advantage of this system that Hyundai were claiming. A max of 232kW charging from an 800V charger straight into the battery. While it can also take full power from a 400V charger, by using the electric motor as a DC step-up converter (while reducing the amps). So it should be able to take the full 150kW from a 400V charger.

liamog

Round Cable wrote: »

I thought that was the advantage of this system that Hyundai were claiming. A max of 232kW charging from an 800V charger straight into the battery. While it can also take full power from a 400V charger, by using the electric motor as a DC step-up converter (while reducing the amps). So it should be able to take the full 150kW from a 400V charger.

It's an advantage compared to the Taycan approach where the car had a separate 400V DC charging system. There will be a rating on the DC DC convertor and some losses. I'd hope that it was capable of at least 100kW with a 400V input, but time will tell.

the_amazing_raisin

Round Cable wrote: »

I thought that was the advantage of this system that Hyundai were claiming. A max of 232kW charging from an 800V charger straight into the battery. While it can also take full power from a 400V charger, by using the electric motor as a DC step-up converter (while reducing the amps). So it should be able to take the full 150kW from a 400V charger.

Not exactly, the limitation is on how much current the charger can supply. A 150kW charger at 400V will supply 375A of current. If the car converts this to 800V then the current will drop by 50%, so it's still 150kW. The charger can't supply additional current because that's all it's rated for

In terms of converting the 400V to 800V, they actually have to do that anyway. You charge a battery by connecting it to a higher voltage source, so you need 800V to charge an 800V battery.

Connecting directly to a 400V source would cause the battery to discharge. It's a bit like water pressure, you can't put water into a high pressure pipe from an lower pressure one

Using the motor to do the conversion is smart, it reuses existing components and saves cost and weight

ELM327

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Not exactly, the limitation is on how much current the charger can supply. A 150kW charger at 400V will supply 375A of current. If the car converts this to 800V then the current will drop by 50%, so it's still 150kW. The charger can't supply additional current because that's all it's rated for

In terms of converting the 400V to 800V, they actually have to do that anyway. You charge a battery by connecting it to a higher voltage source, so you need 800V to charge an 800V battery.

Connecting directly to a 400V source would cause the battery to discharge. It's a bit like water pressure, you can't put water into a high pressure pipe from an lower pressure one

Using the motor to do the conversion is smart, it reuses existing components and saves cost and weight

agree about the second part


However, did you see Bjorn's video about the truck EV connected to a 150kW post that drew 250+ kW over a long period of time? That had an 800v system

the_amazing_raisin

ELM327 wrote: »

agree about the second part


However, did you see Bjorn's video about the truck EV connected to a 150kW post that drew 250+ kW over a long period of time? That had an 800v system

The charger was also 800V even though it wasn't labeled as such, in theory it can supply 300kW.

The reason they called it a 150kW charger is because 2 plugs share the same charger, if another car plugs into the next outlet then it'll supply 150kW to each plug

ELM327

So it's an amperage limit to 150KW that can output the same amount of amps but double the volts and give 300kW depending on load.
The reason I mention it is that it's possible that others are set up the same.

the_amazing_raisin

ELM327 wrote: »

So it's an amperage limit to 150KW that can output the same amount of amps but double the volts and give 300kW depending on load.
The reason I mention it is that it's possible that others are set up the same.

Yeah I think Bjorn did a video on this and he noticed a few chargers were rated for 800V even though they didn't advertise it.

I think the problem is there's no way to be sure without looking at the spec sheet on the charger. A few manufacturers seem to offer the 800V as an upgrade, so it's up to the charging network as to whether they'll spend the money on it

Kramer

cruisey1987 wrote: »

In terms of converting the 400V to 800V, they actually have to do that anyway. You charge a battery by connecting it to a higher voltage source, so you need 800V to charge an 800V battery.

Ultimately, it's not really an 800v battery though, just a lot of single lithium cells, in series, at 4.2v each. Any supply voltage, AC or DC, from 1v to 10,000v, can conceivably be inverted/converted/transformed to get that 4.2v to each cell.

Cabling/efficiency/cost would probably favour 800v going forward though - imagine the cable required to carry almost 1,000 amps (350kW @ 400v) from a DC charger :eek:.

the_amazing_raisin

Kramer wrote: »

Ultimately, it's not really an 800v battery though, just a lot of single lithium cells, in series, at 4.2v each. Any supply voltage, AC or DC, from 1v to 10,000v, can conceivably be inverted/converted/transformed to get that 4.2v to each cell.

Cabling/efficiency/cost would probably favour 800v going forward though - imagine the cable required to carry almost 1,000 amps (350kW @ 400v) from a DC charger :eek:.

True, I could even see higher voltages for long range electric trucks. There's a reason the power grid operates at tens of thousands of volts

I wonder if an 800V battery is better from a manufacturing view. I remember an article a while ago about choosing battery modules for boats and it said never to use modules over 200Ah because they were physically large and heavy enough that they'd basically get wrecked from the boat rocking

An 800V EV battery needs more cells in series, but the cells can be smaller and probably easier to manufacture

I read where it's said that the 5 will cost around 50 K USD that will make it near 60K hear, between 55-60K.

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

I read where it's said that the 5 will cost around 50 K USD that will make it near 60K hear, between 55-60K.

You keep saying that. Any link?

Nobody is going to buy it at €60k. It will not be anywhere near that price (provided we will still have the same subsidies as today). You can quote me on that

Interesting.

https://cleantechnica.com/2020/12/22/1st-edition-hyundai-ioniq-5-now-open-for-reservation-450-km-and-80-charge-in-18-minutes/

Entry versions will have 58 kWh usable capacity and 450 km WLTP

Optional (later?) variants offer 72 kWh usable capacity and 550 km WLTP

A dual motor version will be available with ~230 kW power and 5.1 seconds 0-100 km/h

https://www.caranddriver.com/hyundai/ioniq-5

This site Says 45 USD = 55 Euro's here probably more of course that's all estimated.

I did see on another site 50 USD so who knows.

liamog

The bigger battery reminds me of the original Ioniq, it was always rumoured to have a bigger battery version due later, which happened 3 years in during the mid cycle refresh.

the_amazing_raisin

Hmm, I thought they were leading with the big battery and AWD version?

I guess we'll see in February

liamog

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Hmm, I thought they were leading with the big battery and AWD version?

I guess we'll see in February

The First Edtions reported from Austria are AWD and 58kWh usable. Waiting for Hyundai Ireland to turn that into a wind up motor with a pack of AAs

the_amazing_raisin

liamog wrote: »

The First Edtions reported from Austria are AWD and 58kWh usable. Waiting for Hyundai Ireland to turn that into a wind up motor with a pack of AAs

Not to mention the petrol engine to self charge the battery :rolleyes:

liamog

liamog wrote: »

The First Edtions reported from Austria are AWD and 58kWh usable. Waiting for Hyundai Ireland to turn that into a wind up motor with a pack of AAs

Halogen headlights, the whole works.

cruisey1987

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Not to mention the petrol engine to self charge the battery :rolleyes:

A REx version would be really sweet but I think if fast charging in cold weather can manage not much less than the times of 15-20 mins I might live with it.

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

A REx version would be really sweet

I think nothing any of us can say will convince you that the automotive world is moving away from fossil fuels

unkel

unkel wrote: »

And drum brakes. Not seen since some of the cheapest, nastiest cars of the 80s had them. And some plastic fantastic trims from recycled coffee cups. And the peel off plastic stickers on the outside. None of that bothers me too much, but bejaysus is it race to the bottom, just to go cheap, cheap, cheap.

The leaf carpet was and probably still is made from recycled plastic bottles looked nasty.

I'm sure drum brakes are still on cheap cars today somewhere but shouldn't be on a 50K car.

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm sure drum brakes are still on cheap cars today somewhere but shouldn't be on a 50K car.

They are on the ID.3!

ELM327

Deleted User wrote: »

A REx version would be really sweet but I think if fast charging in cold weather can manage not much less than the times of 15-20 mins I might live with it.

Do you have a rex for your laptop?:D

unkel

unkel wrote: »

They are on the ID.3!

Ha ha yeah I forgot.

unkel

ELM327 wrote: »

Do you have a rex for your laptop?:D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn__9hLJKAk

ELM327

@Unkel that's where I got that idea from.
The rex was a great thing back in its time, no doubting that, and especially from 2018 until fees for charging were introduced
Now though, with 300-650km range EVs for sale, it's not needed. Either buy a good hybrid, a good long distance phev that you only use the odd time, or a long range EV with 100kW+ charging.

liamog

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm sure drum brakes are still on cheap cars today somewhere but shouldn't be on a 50K car.

There is nothing wrong with drum brakes on an axle with a motor than can provide a high amount of retardation via regeneration.

Silent Running

liamog wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with drum brakes on an axle with a motor than can provide a high amount of retardation via regeneration.

In fact it's a plus point.

The rear discs on the e-Niro have to be regularly scrubbed of rust by putting the car in neutral and using the foot brake on a long downhill.

Drum rear brakes are more than enough for most EVs.

the_amazing_raisin

Take a look at the rust on most EVs disc brakes and you might reevaluate your negative opinions about drum brakes

Kramer

liamog wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with drum brakes on an axle with a motor than can provide a high amount of retardation via regeneration.

1. They look terrible
2. There's little or no retardation with a fully charged battery or a very cold battery (REx FTW here :pac:).
3. Drums aren't as effective if they get very, very wet or in an emergency braking situation.
4. Drums aren't as easy to manage for either an ABS system or traction control system, which uses rapid, pulsated brake application.
5. They are purely a cost saving exercise for manufacturers.
6. Did I say they look terrible?

(..........points 2 to 5 above may not be true, but could be............I hate drums) .

liamog

Kramer wrote: »

1. They look terrible
2. There's little or no retardation with a fully charged battery or a very cold battery (REx FTW here :pac:).
3. Drums aren't as effective if they get very, very wet or in an emergency braking situation.
4. Drums aren't as easy to manage for either an ABS system or traction control system, which uses rapid, pulsated brake application.
5. They are purely a cost saving exercise for manufacturers.
6. Did I say they look terrible?

Rusty disc brakes look worse than drum brakes hidden behind an aero wheel.
They don't need to be as effective due to the engine regen, and most modern EVs have enough buffer at the top end (oh and disc brakes on the non driving axle) that there's plenty of room for regen to be effective.

Kramer

liamog wrote: »

Rusty disc brakes look worse than drum brakes hidden behind an aero wheel.

What about rusty brake discs hidden behind cool plastic aero wheel covers, like the Tesla Model 3?

liamog wrote: »

most modern EVs have enough buffer at the top end (oh and disc brakes on the non driving axle) that there's plenty of room for regen to be effective.

Just the posh ones have the top buffer, not the cheaper EVs from Tesla etc. .

Drums can be improved, though.........





.

liamog

Kramer wrote: »

Just the posh ones have the top buffer, not the cheaper EVs from Tesla etc. .

I think Tesla are the only ones who allow you to use the whole battery and leave it up to the owner to manage. Everyone else gives you a buffer, and figures the owner is too dumb to do the right thing.

Then again, Tesla also don't do blended brakes so you wouldn't have a problem with brake feel on a full battery anyway.