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2021 Irish Property Market chat - *mod warnings post 1*

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    I heard yesterday about a couple of large houses with about an acre each of land currently in the process of being bought subject to planning by a developer in north Dublin, near Swords.
    The developer has already a deal in place to buy all of the houses with fingal coco and he hasnt even got planning (but pretty much a done deal given who will be granting the planning permission), or actually closed the sale on the houses yet.
    The reason i know this is that have a source in fingal coco.

    Probably cost an absolute fortune for the tax payer.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,491 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    Yurt! wrote: »
    More than likely, these are going straight into the hands of REITs in-bulk for them to sit on. My question was rhetorical, if a couple / individual has 362k to spend, they're not about to spend it on a two bed unit in Drogheda.

    Of course not, but Louth County Council have other peoples money. Value for money is not a priority. I seriously doubt any REIT would be paying that price either.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Ush1 wrote: »
    Of course not, but Louth County Council have other peoples money. Value for money is not a priority. I seriously doubt any REIT would be paying that price either.


    REITs have been paying over the odds (far more than mortgage approved couples and cash in hand investors are willing to pay) for new-build apartments for years now -- and, letting them sit empty in many cases. These will go to REITs, and not at sum less than 362k. They're making a play that councils under pressure from central government will act as price takers and will lease them long-term.

    They may be right unless we have a government that takes their head out of their a*s and shouts stop.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,491 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    Yurt! wrote: »
    REITs have been paying over the odds (far more than mortgage approved couples and cash in hand investors are willing to pay) for new-build apartments for years now -- and, letting them sit empty in many cases. These will go to REITs, and not at sum less than 362k. They're making a play that councils under pressure from central government will act as price takers and will lease them long-term.

    They may be right unless we have a government that takes their head out of their a*s and shouts stop.

    Obviously the social units will go to the council, hence the article.

    The ire is to do with government spending of public money, not REITs.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,906 ✭✭✭Villa05


    Ush1 wrote:
    The price could be totally different for the non social units. Builders know the government has deep pockets.

    JimmyVik wrote:
    Probably cost an absolute fortune for the tax payer.


    I'm beginning to think that taxes may actually fall if SF get into power.
    The complete disregard this shower have for taxpayers money does not appear to have a ceiling

    Amazing levels of incompetence


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,045 ✭✭✭MacronvFrugals


    I read an interesting stat in this book today, in 2010 funds bought 500 units in Ireland and in 2019 they bought 5000

    https://policy.bristoluniversitypress.co.uk/housing-shock


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,105 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Well if those c. 90,000 currently vacant homes are taxed at e.g. €10k each per annum, that just might make up for the expected shortfall in our share of the EU Brexit fund that may now be reduced and the Government had already most likely probably factored into next years budget.

    From yesterday's Irish Times: "Irish share of €5bn EU Brexit fund could be slashed under French plan"

    Link to article here: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/irish-share-of-5bn-eu-brexit-fund-could-be-slashed-under-french-plan-1.4512255

    Nice wind up from under your bridge, there. :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,203 ✭✭✭PropQueries


    cnocbui wrote: »
    Nice wind up from under your bridge, there. :rolleyes:

    Not a wind up at all. It’s based on the same Washington D.C. 5% tax on a €200k vacant home.

    I’m not talking about holiday homes in dedicated zoned areas. A second home that’s not in a dedicated holiday home zoned area is taking a family home from someone who may wish to live in and contribute to the local area year round.

    A €10k annual tax on such homes is entirely justifiable and fair in such circumstances. And if they can afford a second home, then by definition, they can afford the annual €10k tax.

    €10k per annum is actually quite low in my view given the costs they impose on the local economy i.e. not using local services, shops, GP services, post offices etc. etc. by not living there year round IMO


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Not pointing fingers at any particular poster, but there are some who are of the view that if you own the deeds to a property, and are on the right side of a property boondoggle, that a proportionate tax for the public good that prevents dereliction, underutilisation of housing stock and unproductive and destructive speculation is akin to the Soviet Union.

    That's not adult, and it's not the real world. We've a lot of growing up to do with housing and property in this country.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,105 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Yurt! wrote: »
    Not pointing fingers at any particular poster, but there are some who are of the view that if you own the deeds to a property, and are on the right side of a property boondoggle, that a proportionate tax for the public good that prevents dereliction, underutilisation of housing stock and unproductive and destructive speculation is akin to the Soviet Union.

    That's not adult, and it's not the real world. We've a lot of growing up to do with housing and property in this country.

    Well you will be glad to know that I am in the process of selling one property, and if that completes, I'll be selling the other and can then join you socialists in being unencumbered by property. It can't happen fast enough. :)


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    cnocbui wrote: »
    Well you will be glad to know that I am in the process of selling one property, and if that completes, I'll be selling the other and can then join you socialists in being unencumbered by property. It can't happen fast enough. :)


    Why makes you think I'm not a property owner or that I'm 'a socialist'? You'd be wrong on both counts.


    You've fallen into the everyone I disagree with is a communist wormhole again cnoc.


  • Registered Users, Subscribers, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,683 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Yurt! wrote: »
    Why makes you think I'm not a property owner or that I'm 'a socialist'? You'd be wrong on both counts.


    You've fallen into the everyone I disagree with is a communist wormhole again cnoc.

    These threads have not quite unleashed the socialist in me, but i’ve definitely discovered hitherto well hidden leftie tendencies in myself since participating on here.

    Then I read the council might pay the guts of 400k for a two bed apartment in Drogheda and the rabid right winger free marketeer takes over again.

    It’s all very confusing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    schmittel wrote: »
    These threads have not quite unleashed the socialist in me, but i’ve definitely discovered hitherto well hidden leftie tendencies in myself since participating on here.

    Then I read the council might pay the guts of 400k for a two bed apartment in Drogheda and the rabid right winger free marketeer takes over again.

    It’s all very confusing.


    I'm not sure you'd call government paying developers through the nose for housing units (sometimes on land they sold to the developer at a deep discount) a core tenant of socialism -- dummyism maybe?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,000 ✭✭✭Hubertj


    Yurt! wrote: »
    I'm not sure you'd call government paying developers through the nose for housing units (sometimes on land they sold to the developer at a deep discount) a core tenant of socialism -- dummyism maybe?

    Same can be said for pretty much the provision of all public services. Our beloved public servants don’t give a toss as they aren’t accountable. It’s not their money.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,105 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    France Tried Soaking the Rich. It Didn’t Go Well.

    A wealth tax and sky-high rates on top incomes didn’t yield much revenue.
    ...
    France had a wealth tax from 1982 to 1986 and again from 1988 to 2017. The top rate was between 1.5% and 1.8%, with the total tax rate on fortunes larger than 13 million euros ($14.3 million) hovering at about 1.4%. This is much less than the 6% top rate proposed by Warren (not to mention the 8% proposed by her fellow candidate, Senator Bernie Sanders), but it's close to the 2% rate Warren would impose on fortunes larger than $50 million.
    The wealth tax might have generated social solidarity, but as a practical matter it was a disappointment. The revenue it raised was rather paltry; only a few billion euros at its peak, or about 1% of France’s total revenue from all taxes. At least 10,000 wealthy people left the country to avoid paying the tax; most moved to neighboring Belgium, which has a large French-speaking population. When these individuals left, France lost not only their wealth tax revenue but their income taxes and other taxes as well. French economist Eric Pichet estimates that this ended up costing the French government almost twice as much revenue as the total yielded by the wealth tax. When President Emmanuel Macron ended the wealth tax in 2017, it was viewed mostly as a symbolic move.
    https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-11-14/france-s-wealth-tax-should-be-a-warning-for-warren-and-sanders

    The problem in Ireland is not insufficient taxation of individuals, its not taxing REITS, Apple, Google and their cohorts enough, together with a mental incapcity to deal with government expenditure, downsizing the public service and not tackling their inefficiencies, like the HSE, where Ireland has the second highest OECD expenditure on health care and the poorest outcomes.
    NSW to digitise the whole property sector

    NSW will expand its e-planning portal to digitally integrate all relevant regulatory, approval, transaction and compliance requirements into a single system.

    This country sorely needs a dose of that sort of thing, after it fixes the deliberately cost inducing legal system to make such things possible, among other things.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,045 ✭✭✭MacronvFrugals


    Is it conspiratorial to say the rental sector was made extremely attractive for international funds by central government with the sole intention of lifting Tiger era buyers out of negative equity and removing toxic assets?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,105 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Hubertj wrote: »
    Same can be said for pretty much the provision of all public services. Our beloved public servants don’t give a toss as they aren’t accountable. It’s not their money.

    My son applied for an Irish passport 18 months ago. The public servants who should have been doing work on such applications have been sitting at home drawing their salaries and doing not a lick of work for them and will continue to do so for the forseeable future.

    Meanwhile, the NCT is still open for business, despite a massive reduction in vehicle movements and wear and tear on them. If you order something online from outside the EU customs and excise still seem to be at it and will happily ask you to cough up when it arrives, but 24+ months to process a passport application and tie up critical ID documents for that period of time is ok.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,643 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Mod Note

    a final reminder that this is the Accommodation & Property forum. There are dedicated forums for political/taxation discussion unrelated to property.


    Do not reply to this post.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,045 ✭✭✭MacronvFrugals


    cnocbui wrote: »
    My son applied for an Irish passport 18 months ago. The public servants who should have been doing work on such applications have been sitting at home drawing their salaries and doing not a lick of work for them and will continue to do so for the forseeable future.

    Meanwhile, the NCT is still open for business, despite a massive reduction in vehicle movements and wear and tear on them. If you order something online from outside the EU customs and excise still seem to be at it and will happily ask you to cough up when it arrives, but 24+ months to process a passport application and tie up critical ID documents for that period of time is ok.

    I work in an extremely successful tech SME doing ‘lick all work’ sure aren’t most office jobs like that, we drink more tea than work!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Is it conspiratorial to say the rental sector was made extremely attractive for international funds by central government with the sole intention of lifting Tiger era buyers out of negative equity and removing toxic assets?

    https://www.independent.ie/life/home-garden/homes/michael-noonan-wants-house-prices-to-rise-further-30192456.html

    There can be little doubt about it. I love the video in this article, a cocksure Noono scratching the armrest telling us he's it all figured out between NAMA and 'international investors' poo-pooing the prospect of another price boom. John Delaney looking on in awe.

    Alarm bells were starting to ring by 2016 rents started to go haywire and evictions from funds started to make themselves known.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 220 ✭✭thefridge2006


    Yurt! wrote: »
    https://www.independent.ie/life/home-garden/homes/michael-noonan-wants-house-prices-to-rise-further-30192456.html

    There can be little doubt about it. I love the video in this article, a cocksure Noono scratching the armrest telling us he's it all figured out between NAMA and 'international investors' poo-pooing the prospect of another price boom. John Delaney looking on in awe.

    Alarm bells were starting to ring by 2016 rents started to go haywire and evictions from funds started to make themselves known.

    Looking back on old footage of our "leaders" is actually hilarious.... they have gotten it so so wrong so so often...…(have they actually ever got it right) why will this time around be any different? Paschal and the magic budget that is already for the bin, leading us up the garden path.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,432 ✭✭✭combat14


    Prepare for rise in interest rates and price inflation, Varadkar warns

    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/prepare-for-rise-in-interest-rates-and-price-inflation-varadkar-warns-1.4514144?mode=amp

    more talk of issues with national debt repayments today also mention of 16,000 in danger of losing their house once PUP repayments stop

    and COVID lockdown now to last till June a wonderful news day lol


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,068 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    combat14 wrote:
    Prepare for rise in interest rates and price inflation, Varadkar warns
    combat14 wrote:
    more talk of issues with national debt repayments today also mention of 16,000 in danger of losing their house once PUP repayments stop

    Surprise surprise, from a fiscal conservative! Rates arent going anywhere, we 're no where near full employment, and unemployment is likely to rise once pup is removed.

    And again, rising public debt isn't anything to worry about, it's just the public entity of the money supply, far safer than having it in the private sector. The ecb has more or less stated it won't allow any country to default, it simply can't, so plough on with the borrowing, protect as many jobs as possible, particularly in the private sector


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 311 ✭✭SmokyMo


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    Surprise surprise, from a fiscal conservative! Rates arent going anywhere, we 're no where near full employment, and unemployment is likely to rise once pup is removed.

    And again, rising public debt isn't anything to worry about, it's just the public entity of the money supply, far safer than having it in the private sector. The ecb has more or less stated it won't allow any country to default, it simply can't, so plough on with the borrowing, protect as many jobs as possible, particularly in the private sector

    The magic of QE is slowing losing its power, you can only swallow debt for so long. Speculation that inflation will blow past 2% target. Some arguing that inflation is already here, from housing market to stock market. Your buying power is not the same as before.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 864 ✭✭✭Zenify


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    Rates arent going anywhere, we 're no where near full employment

    Rates aren't linked to full employment, they are linked to inflation. That's why Central Banks are supposed to be seperate from government because they aren't supposed to be influenced by other factors "supposed".

    One could argue that you won't get inflation without full employment. But this theory has been thrown out in recent years as we had full employment and QE without inflation.

    I think you accept we will have inflation as you agreed in the forum below. If you accept inflation you will have to accept rate increases. All this talk from central bankers "we don't expect rate increases until 2024" (US) is just to calm the markets. I think central bankers are the most carefully worded people in the world. They didn't say they wouldn't increase them.

    The affect of rate increases here on mortgage holders struggling just after a pandemic is going to come at the worst possible time.

    https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2058141488/1


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,068 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    SmokyMo wrote: »
    The magic of QE is slowing losing its power, you can only swallow debt for so long. Speculation that inflation will blow past 2% target. Some arguing that inflation is already here, from housing market to stock market. Your buying power is not the same as before.

    yup, the only place we re seeing inflation is in asset markets, while the rest of the economy is in deflation! money needs to be put directly into the real economy, or we ll end up in serious trouble
    Zenify wrote: »
    Rates aren't linked to full employment, they are linked to inflation. That's why Central Banks are supposed to be seperate from government because they aren't supposed to be influenced by other factors "supposed".

    One could argue that you won't get inflation without full employment. But this theory has been thrown out in recent years as we had full employment and QE without inflation.

    I think you accept we will have inflation as you agreed in the forum below. If you accept inflation you will have to accept rate increases. All this talk from central bankers "we don't expect rate increases until 2024" (US) is just to calm the markets. I think central bankers are the most carefully worded people in the world. They didn't say they wouldn't increase them.

    The affect of rate increases here on mortgage holders struggling just after a pandemic is going to come at the worst possible time.

    https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2058141488/1

    rates arent going anywhere, central banks know economies cant take it, it would cause many economies to crash, plough on with the borrowing folks. we need inflation in the economy, our debts are becoming too much to bare, if we dont get some form of inflation, we may face stagnation, due to our debts


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭mcsean2163


    I work in an extremely successful tech SME doing ‘lick all work’ sure aren’t most office jobs like that, we drink more tea than work!

    Not if you're in engineering.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭fliball123


    I work in an extremely successful tech SME doing ‘lick all work’ sure aren’t most office jobs like that, we drink more tea than work!

    Not sure where your working but can say its the not the case where I am working


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 864 ✭✭✭Zenify


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    yup, the only place we re seeing inflation is in asset markets, while the rest of the economy is in deflation! money needs to be put directly into the real economy, or we ll end up in serious trouble



    rates arent going anywhere, central banks know economies cant take it, it would cause many economies to crash, plough on with the borrowing folks. we need inflation in the economy, our debts are becoming too much to bare, if we dont get some form of inflation, we may face stagnation, due to our debts

    Wrong, inflation is not just in asset markets.

    Even our politicians are warning about interest rates and inflation. Do you disagree with them?

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/business/prepare-for-rise-in-interest-rates-and-price-inflation-varadkar-warns-1.4514144%3fmode=amp


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,068 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Zenify wrote: »
    Wrong, inflation is not just in asset markets.

    Even our politicians are warning about interest rates and inflation. Do you disagree with them?

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/business/prepare-for-rise-in-interest-rates-and-price-inflation-varadkar-warns-1.4514144%3fmode=amp

    absolutely, politicians are largely neoclassically trained and advised, neoclassical economics has a fantasy world view of invisible people, equilibriums and rationally expecting humans. again varadkar is a fiscal conservative, hes hard wired to believe such things, its largely nonsense, well proven to


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