The Ivermectin discussion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117831052#Comment_117831052

"The company has gone so far as to create a dedicated website, to debunk this conspiracy nonsense, and make absolutely clear that their Listerine mouth wash has no effect whatsoever in preventing or treating Covid:"

From the site you linked:

"More research is needed to understand whether the use of mouthwashes can impact viral transmission, exposure, viral entry, viral load and ultimately affect meaningful clinical outcomes."

They did not say that it has no effect whatsoever, since they cannot state that definitively. What they did say is that "no evidence-based clinical conclusions can be drawn with regards to the anti-viral efficacy of LISTERINE® Antiseptic mouthwash at this time."

Fun fact, since we've talked about repurposing in this thread: Listerine is repurposed floor cleaner.

Unicorn Milk Latte

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117831104#Comment_117831104

Conveniently leaving out the key sentences:

"LISTERINE® Antiseptic is not intended to prevent or treat COVID-19 and should be used only as directed on the product label."

"No evidence based conclusions can be drawn with regards to the anti-viral efficacy" means there is no known efficacy. None. Zero.

Why do you think they have created this webpage??

Why do you think they point out that they are "company firmly rooted in science"?

Why do you think the webpage links to actual, valid, proven, evidence based, effective means of Covid prevention, with the vaccine from the same company?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117831110#Comment_117831110

You've mentioned everything the page says in that post.

As opposed to making up **** it did not say in your previous one.

Glad the lessons are sinking in.

Lumen

I wonder whether there's any overlap between the people who asserted that Bill Gates was embedding mind altering chips in vaccines and those proposing to give mind altering drugs to everyone who tests positive (presumably that's what happens with "early intervention to prevent serious disease", or maybe is just those statistically at higher risk?).

Anyway, the Irish Times health editor put on the green jersey and wrote this a couple of days ago.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/cheap-existing-antidepressant-likely-weapon-against-covid-19-1.4659252?mode=amp

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117831134#Comment_117831134

I think they're purposely delaying the "Invermectin cures covid (and cancer and baldness)" studies being published until they have all the 5G embedded properly into the horse paste.

It's off patent, there is 0 reasons why Bill Gates can't have done this multiple times over and best yet, he'll be targeting those who won't take their 5G's from other sources.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117830835#Comment_117830835

Yep. Fluvoxamine and fluoxetine are not easy drugs to take. Lots of side effects which are worst in the initial weeks of treatment. Plenty of people will quit after a few days of nausea, dizziness, etc. Except guess what, stopping treatment suddenly can make things worse.

And of course a small number of people will react VERY badly to them and have feelings of suicidality.

The early Covid studies seem to show that they work best in early infection. So you would have to give them to people who people who may never go on to develop serious Covid.

Even if they do work on Covid, it's a very complicated question if it's actually worth it and we're probably a number of years away from knowing the answer.

PureIsle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117826749#Comment_117826749

"If he'd been vaccinated, he'd be alive right now."

"he died for nothing other than pig-headedness"

Really?

Man, you have super powers, please use them to get rid of this virus altogether.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117837064#Comment_117837064

Ah here. You confidently declared that he died because he was obese (even though he wasn't), and you're going to pull me up for saying he wouldn't have died if he'd been vaccinated.

We are blesssed with plenty of fat people in Ireland, plenty of 30 year olds fatter than your boy Caleb was, yet deaths have slowed to a trickle. So either we've all gone on a mass crash diet in the last six months, or vaccines work.

My super power is logical reasoning. Two years ago, I wouldn't have regarded it as a super power but posting here has made me reconsider that.

PureIsle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117837217#Comment_117837217

So you create this

Ah here. You confidently declared that he died because he was obese (even though he wasn't), and you're going to pull me up for saying he wouldn't have died if he'd been vaccinated.

from this:

Deaths from Covid are high if you are obese, regardless taking vaccine or other treatments.

He was obese so had one of the known health issues which put him in the 'vulnerable' category.

Sadly he died and his health issues were a major contributing cause to a bad outcome.

It seems you had him on a serious diet between posts going from 'not morbidly obese' to not obese at all.

Congrats on further proof of your superpowers!

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117840370#Comment_117840370

I think this is your problem statement, had he taken a vaccine there is a very high chance he'd be alive and his children would still have a father:

regardless taking vaccine or other treatments

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117840370#Comment_117840370

Think I said he was "beefy" which he was. If beefy people were genuinely a risk category, we'd have had a holocaust in Ireland.

But listen, I'll use my superpowers again and guess that, as he was slipping away after weeks in ICU, he wasn't thinking "I wish I'd lost a few pounds", he was thinking "I wish I'd got the vaccine".

Ultimately, he died of stupidity, not Covid. That sounds harsh but he decided on a deliberate course of action that left four small kids without a father in a country not famed for its social welfare safety nets. His wife has to beg for money on GoFundMe to cover his hospital bills. I can't imagine what a month in an American ICU would cost.

And that's the problem. He thought he was exercising his individual rights and freedoms but like all selfish people, it's others who have to pick up the tab.

godzilla1989

Peer reviewed study saying it works

Think the tide is turning now on Ivermectin, can't wait till pfziermectin is repackaged

Dr Pierre Kory is the first name on this paper and he is the head of FLCCC and he actually already testified to this last year.

His testimony is at 27 minutes in, He’s also not “anti vaccine" before someone says he is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8RyV3VEDKI

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8088823/

Conclusions:

Meta-analyses based on 18 randomized controlled treatment trials of ivermectin in COVID-19 have found large, statistically significant reductions in mortality, time to clinical recovery, and time to viral clearance. Furthermore, results from numerous controlled prophylaxis trials report significantly reduced risks of contracting COVID-19 with the regular use of ivermectin. Finally, the many examples of ivermectin distribution campaigns leading to rapid population-wide decreases in morbidity and mortality indicate that an oral agent effective in all phases of COVID-19 has been identified.

odyssey06

Hard to reconcile the above with this study, caveated that it hasn't been formally published...

Ivermectin, the latest supposed treatment for COVID-19 being touted by anti-vaccination groups, had “no effect whatsoever” on the disease, according to a large patient study. That’s the conclusion of the Together Trial, which has subjected several purported nonvaccine treatments for COVID-19 to carefully designed clinical testing. The trial is supervised by McMaster University in Hamilton, Canada, and conducted in Brazil. One of the trial’s principal investigators, Edward Mills of McMaster, presented the results from the ivermectin arms of the study at an Aug. 6 symposium sponsored by the National Institutes of Health...

Among the 1,500 patients in the study, he said, ivermectin showed “no effect whatsoever” on the trial’s outcome goals — whether patients required extended observation in the emergency room or hospitalization.

https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-08-11/ivermectin-no-effect-covid

The Raging Bile Duct

Is that the same review article that was removed from Frontiers in Pharmacology for containing 'a series of strong, unsupported claims'?

https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/frontiers-removes-controversial-ivermectin-paper-pre-publication-68505

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117841421#Comment_117841421

Fluvoxamine reduced severe covid by 30% in that trial.

ligind

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117841381#Comment_117841381

That includes the suspect Elgazzar trial ?

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117841381#Comment_117841381

Actual purpose designed treatments are likely to be approved more quickly than Ivermectin.

Lumen

Surely if Ivermectin (or anything else) was significantly effective it would demonstrate this in every trial?

SortingYouOut

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117841908#Comment_117841908

Yeah it does. Although when removed from the meta-analysis, the conclusion was still the same.

https://www.newswise.com/coronavirus/joint-statement-of-the-flccc-alliance-and-british-ivermectin-recommendation-development-group-on-retraction-of-early-research-on-ivermectin/?article_id=754488

That meta-analysis is tarred now, dead in the water. When is the Oxford study due to finish?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117841989#Comment_117841989

Not really. Lots of drugs, particularly those for infectious diseases, have stage-specific effects and dosing regimens. The FLCCC doctors' main complaint about the recent Together trial is that the dose of ivermectin given was administered too late in the course of the disease and was discontinued too soon (FLCCC are probably the main proponents of ivermectin and recommend treatment starts as soon as possible after infection and continues for 5 days or until recovered).

If their hypothesis is correct and ivermectin is most effective when given early and continued for 5(+) days, then you might expect to see no effect in a study that gives low doses for a shorter period only to severely ill patients, for example.

So no, you wouldn't necessarily expect to see effectiveness in every trial. It would depend on the trial design.

Unicorn Milk Latte

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117837217#Comment_117837217

My super power is logical reasoning. Two years ago, I wouldn't have regarded it as a super power but posting here has made me reconsider that.

The thing that I find most difficult right now is not the capability to debunk misinformation. With a little common sense, and logical reasoning, that's perfectly doable, and requires little effort.

The real problem right now is that the disinformation crowd is actively 'trying to flood the zone with sh*t'. Spreading lots and lots of misinformation quickly and incessantly, to muddy the waters. Bring up scientific studies with claims that the studies state the opposite of what's actually in them, to discredit science in general.

You have one idiotic claim that mouthwash prevents Covid. Easy to debunk. But then it's followed quickly with countless equally idiotic claims, like that any medication administered via nasal spray, no matter what kind of medication it is, prevents Covid, that antidepressants prevent Covid, that Ivermectin is effective after all, that obesity disables vaccinations, and on and on. Some with - deliberately misinterpreted - linked studies.

Each of the claims is easy to debunk in isolation, but the relentless assault with masses of disinformation makes it increasingly difficult to keep up,

Considering the source of information works as a filter - anything from the top spreaders of misinformation - sites like Facebook and Twitter, and people like the disinformation dozen - can be dismissed right away, without making the effort to look at details. Still, these sources are often not obvious, unless you start digging.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117841381#Comment_117841381

Hes vaccinated and takes ivermectin once a week to help prevent.

He works in an ICU hospital treating covid patients.

He caught covid last month and got a mild dose.

He was grateful for the vaccine and ivermectin as he felt he was at moderate risk due to his age and where he works.

Many anti-ivermectin try to paint ivermectin as anti vaccine as it fits their narrow world view.

Most people on the globe who take ivermectin do not have access to a vaccine yet or use it as an adjuvant on top of their vaccine like Dr. Pierre.

India has a population of 1.2 billion and most people there have not been offered a vaccine yet.

godzilla1989

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117843036#Comment_117843036

Exactly

It's not one or the other

That Dr has been brilliant throughout this pandemic, has made a lot of sense

I'm vaccinated and I have no problem taking ivermectin if it was prescribed to me, it's been used for years and very safe.

The human version avermectin won these doctors nobel prizes, it's an amazing drug

https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/medicine/2015/press-release/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043740/

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3896539

https://twitter.com/Covid19Crusher/status/1433810977552732196?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

Both interesting drugs.

Seem to work similarly.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117845500#Comment_117845500

Melatonin is a vitamin, not a drug, anyone who is deficient, should take more melatonin as it strengthens the immune system.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117845766#Comment_117845766

What? It's a hormone and it helps us sleep. Do not be taking melatonin unless you're about to go to bed.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117845792#Comment_117845792

No driving machinery either.

SortingYouOut

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117845792#Comment_117845792

Yeah, it's not a vitamin. I take 5mg before 30 mins before bed and it helps aid natural sleep. We create melatonin in the evening when it starts getting darker which brings on that sleepy feeling. It helps with a number of things but taking it during the day is silly, will only mess up your rhythm.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117845792#Comment_117845792

You're right, my point was it isn't a drug and isn't a treatment and falls into "healthy people have better outcomes".

Fluoxetine is not something to be prescribing lightly.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117846104#Comment_117846104

Prescription only is some parts of europe.