The Ivermectin discussion

carveone

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117823600#Comment_117823600

According to the various facebook lunatics, "Caleb Wallace died because he wasn't taking enough Ivermectin. And Zinc.". Obvious innit

I found it interesting to compare this thread (ie: reasonably reasonable) with, say, anything on the facebook groups. Doing things by total extremes seems to be standard.

The amusing posts are from those who find out that taking an anti-parasitic in the doses they are taking them in has side effects (like "loose stools") and then finding this out while in the supermarket. Needless to say the answers to those posts are "you must have parasites. Thanks goodness you're taking it".

Less amusing is people dosing their children with amounts given by random facebook strangers using a ivermetic compound bought online with no indication of strength. Or telling pregnant women that it's just fine. Or sneaking into hospitals with ivermectin cream to rub it on unconscious patients.

The latest seems to be nebulising sodium bicarb in a saline solution or nasal rinsing with hydrogen iodide. I suppose once you're making stuff up you might as well just do anything. I suppose it's indicative that people can just freely make anything up, find ways of defending it with pseudo scientific sounding nonsense, and then form facebook groups where others can take part.

None of this really says anything about the efficacy or otherwise of anything but it goes to show what people (well, mostly Americans) are like. Also it's entertaining.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-85049-0

Another promising drug.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117822921#Comment_117822921

This is just madness.

So are you saying it's grand for people to go out and just start self medicating.

What happened in your personal life to make you suddenly distrust Doctors and science. That's a genuine question btw. Were you like this in 2019.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117824192#Comment_117824192

Are you okay?

I was making an observation, one that I noted was facetious, and followed it up by saying that nobody should be taking animal anything.

Maybe try responding to what I said, instead of what the fantasy boogeyman in your head said.

Were you like this in 2019?

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117824219#Comment_117824219

This is genuine concern. You come on here acting all indignant, with faux victim portrayal in nearly every second post. But here you are questioning real science and real research. At some point someone has to ask you what's wrong in your life that makes you act this way. There is nothing nobel about chasing down the next crank fix for illness. You are happy to pursue psuedo science and then claim an 'aha' moment but so far none has come . Or at least it's not forthcoming.

So, had you been like this pre 2020?. Have you noticed close family shunning your points of topic and steering the conversation away.

One can argue grifting is the new gold rush .

carveone

It's a bit off topic but the mention of river blindness are words that would strike terror into anyone even vaguely familiar with the disease. Bilharzia and trypanosomiasis are another ones. I spent 7 years in Africa and I don't remember going near lakes or rivers at any stage on that basis alone. Well. Also crocodiles. I remember a doctor in the TMB in Dun Laoghaire telling me how they could now deal with a lot of parasitic infections but missing legs were somewhat more problematic. Smartarse :-)

William Campbell (he was from Donegal) was instrumental in studying ivermectin as a treatment for parasitic infections like onchocerciasis and saved millions of people from blindness as a result. He's a bloody saint in my view. If someone's looking for a statue in Donegal, there you go...

So given all that, I find the classing of ivermectin solely as "horse paste" to be somewhat grating. Even if the box has a sheep on the front.

Which doesn't mean that I'm advocating rushing out and smearing it all over yourself because some fraudulent* study said it was totally fabulous and of course it wasn't fraudulent at all it was Big Pharma or the Illuminati or People Who Hate Freedom.

* The original Behna University "study", retracted due to "ethical concerns", was so horrendously fraudulent someone should be going to jail. It's one of most disturbing things I've ever read in the fields of research. Not least is that, even though it was blatent enough that a master's student copped on straight away that the numbers were statistical bollox, scientists and medical professionals didn't catch on and proceeded to create treatments based on a scam. The first article below implies tens of millions were treated!

https://gidmk.medium.com/is-ivermectin-for-covid-19-based-on-fraudulent-research-5cc079278602

https://grftr.news/why-was-a-major-study-on-ivermectin-for-covid-19-just-retracted/

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117824239#Comment_117824239

Oh wow, thanks for that.

Don't you worry about me being a victim. I'm not over here crying into my keyboard because someone on boards dot ie got their Y-fronts in a twist.

Can you point me to an example of my "faux victim portrayal"?

An example of me "questioning real science" perhaps?

I don't think being curious about positive signals in potential therapeutics is "chasing down the next crank fix", but you do you. The data is "forthcoming", by the way. As I've said several times in this thread, it is currently not know whether Ivermectin has a therapeutic effect against Covid, and I look forward to the ongoing studies in the UK, USA and Japan being completed. Just as with any potential therapeutic. Vaccines are all well and good, but pretending that an effective therapeutic intervention would not be very welcomed is just... well, not for me, let's say that.

My family don't shun me for differences of opinion, just as I would not shun them. They love me, they care about me, and they occasionally disagree with me. They're not particularly bothered by my "Ivermectin has some positive signals, it'll be interesting to see what happens with that" stance, extreme as you may find it yourself.

You're going to have to tell me how I'm "grifting" (i.e.: making money dishonestly). I mean I do very well for myself, granted, but it's nothing related to Covid.

And since it needs saying—this: "At some point someone has to ask you what's wrong in your life that makes you act this way." is not really an acceptable way to speak to people you know nothing about on the internet, in a discussion that can and should be about the facts of the matter. I was willing to trade a wee barb with you about 2019, but I won't continue to engage with someone who's driven to that level of anger by it. It's pointless.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117823533#Comment_117823533

My proposal is the same for any drug, a double blind study where neither doctor nor patient knows if it's drug or placebo. It's the only way to really know if a drug like this works.

Any time ivermectin has been studied like this, it has shown no benefit.

It does not work. It is a conspiracy theory.

Edit: if you scroll up you'll see where I explained how a pharma company could indeed get market exclusivity ivermectin for Covid and make a killing.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117824473#Comment_117824473

Anger ?

Three letters. - lol.

You are here grifting. You've presented no evidence. You've just stated evidence will be forthcoming... When?

It's not acceptable for people like yourself to be out shilling miracle cures under the pretence of just questioning the facts. It's the softly softly questioning approach but it's patently obvious.

You don't appear to have any respect for real experts. What's next, we replace school teachers with influencers ? Maybe University professors with talk show hosts .

Its all anti science dressed up as freedom . I think we can safely say the last 5 years has marked the start of anti enlightenment. It's amazing how cyclical the human race is. There's always a baseless push against progress. What you are doing is nothing new.

Alas. I'm angry ? According to you... Lopcopter

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117824550#Comment_117824550

At times like this you have to ask who has the IP for it or leading manufacturer. Then follow the share price.

As with most of these claims they had an origin in someone trying to make a fast buck and then it's steam rolls.

Unicorn Milk Latte

Politicisation, and who's doing the politicising:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/aug/30/rand-paul-ivermectin-covid-donald-trump

Not sure if Trump actually ever recommended Ivermectin, but I guess that does not really affect the quality of a good straw man.

Unicorn Milk Latte

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117823719#Comment_117823719

nobody has warned of "ineffectiveness". The FDA's position is that "Additional testing is needed to determine whether ivermectin might be appropriate to prevent or treat coronavirus or COVID-19"

From the 🐴horsie's🐴 mouth:

FDA: Why You Should Not Use Ivermectin to Treat or Prevent COVID-19

https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/why-you-should-not-use-ivermectin-treat-or-prevent-covid-19

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117824696#Comment_117824696

Right. No mention of “ineffective”. As I said.

The FDA would be unlikely to assert an unknowable in their press literature, since they tend to deal in science and all.

carveone

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117824581#Comment_117824581

This seems to be turning into some sort of sport at this stage. Start with a "fabulous discovery":

• Hydroxychloroquine
• Colchicine
• Remdesivir
• Ivermectin
• Fluoxetine

and with in vitro studies you can really go nuts. I mean practically anything will kill Covid in a dish:

• Liqurice
• Mouthwash
• Green tea
• Bleach
• Vitamin C
• UV light

OK, the last three are stupid but I didn't make up the first three. Apparently researchers have less to do than one would think. So then scientists run their own dubious in-vitro tests and confirm the results (or seem to). Cue hype, panic buying and emergency use authorisations.

Time passes and large trials are set up with thousands of patients participating. Many millions of euros later, the new COVID-19 drug is shown to have never worked and the world moves to the next miracle cure. (Unless you're in a facebook group which screams that randomized controlled trials are Fake News and proceed to take the miracle cure anyway. Preferably all of them at once. Praying and Jesus often features, probably with equal effectiveness.)

Can I do this too? Lemme see.... How about Carfentanil? Comes in a box with a sleeping elephant on the front.

So we now have science by press release: "Kill Covid-19 with this one weird trick".

Given that the public are often following this circus side-show, I can't imagine this is good for gaining the public trust or for science generally. Hell, I'm an engineer for 35 years and even I (yeah, because I'm so great) found my enthusiasm for the vaccines tempered somewhat by "let's try it on 50 million other people first". Trust but verify.

Bit too sardonic for this time of night. Ghosts is on in a sec 😅

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117824550#Comment_117824550

Is it ethical at this stage in pandemic not to give people best available care?

Unicorn Milk Latte

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117824726#Comment_117824726

Ok.

FDA says "You Should Not Use Ivermectin to Treat or Prevent COVID-19".

Patient gets Covid.

Doctor treats patient with Ivermectin.

Patient dies.

You: No mention of “ineffective”

Ok.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117825204#Comment_117825204

Using unproven medicines is not the "best available care"

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117824913#Comment_117824913

Nasal washes/sprays twice daily reduce hospitlisation risk by about 20 times.

Its like brushing your teeth.

Routine hygiene in a pandemic.

Also massively reduce infection risk.

Your basically reducing infection risk and making sure covid does not get out of control.

Japanese and Germans been doing it early in pandemic.

Disciplines unlike UK/Ireland.

Inconsiderate germ spreaders.

https://www.egms.de/static/en/journals/dgkh/2021-16/dgkh000373.shtml

I use listerine advanced morning and night.

Study last year in Welsh University kills covid best out of say 10 brands.

Will it instantly kill covid? No.

Covid infection is a battle between the virus and your immune system.

5 day incubation if your using mouth wash twice daily you are reducing chance for covid to keep

growing as quickly while your body mounts a defence.

Too much covid infection and the body is overwhelmed and we know how that goes...

Why HIQA couldnt suggest people in ireland gargle listerine twice a day after brushing teeth and then use boots first defence nasal spray(all over the counter products that are safe Boots first defence ingredients in total are seaweed, salt and water)?

They are proven to reduce liklihood of viral infections and most probably the severity.

This would definitely reduce covid spread and is safe and non intrusive.

If its good enough for the Germans and Japanese why not Ireland?

HIQA cant even say take vitamin c and d regularly.

Unicorn Milk Latte

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117825222#Comment_117825222

We're shifting seamlessly from Covid prevention to Covid treatment - which are two entirely different things.

Nasal washes/sprays twice daily reduce hospitlisation risk by about 20 times.

OK, you didn't provide a link to support your claims, but here's a recent study:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8117664/

It is only relevant for mild symptomatic Covid cases. It describes a moderate (16%) reduction of viral load, which is entirely different to 20x reduction in hospitalisation. It describes a slightly shorter duration of illness when using the nasal spray.

Its like brushing your teeth.

Routine hygiene in a pandemic.

Using prescription medication like a nasal spray is not the same as routine hygiene. Quite the opposite. It can be harmful. Treating mild cases is not the same as prevention.

Japanese and Germans been doing it early in pandemic.

I know this is anecdotal, but I do have quite a few contacts in Germany, not a single one ever considered using nasal spray early (or later) in the pandemic, there hasn't been any mention whatsoever of nasal sprays for Covid protection in the German press. Where is this coming from?

Disciplines unlike UK/Ireland.

This is a stereotype. Looking at discipline and being organised in Ireland and Germany, the whole vaccination process was better organised, more efficient, and ultimately more successful in Ireland than in Germany. Germany is still around 15% behind Ireland in fully vaccinated 18+ population.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117825322#Comment_117825322

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.16.21262044v1

Prevention/early treatment do overlap.

Vaccines both prevent and reduce severity(treat).

Ivermectin advocates use it to prevent and treat.

Only in HSE land are they completely seperate and YOU.

Heres a study.

Ive also read your study were did you get 16%?

That spray in your study reduced viral load by 95% in 24 hours and greater than 99.9% in 72 hours.

With regard to prescription.

None of them are.

They are all over the counter.

All you have is anecdotes.

I know a person in....

That study was commissioned by German Health Authority.

You stick to anecdotes, I will stick to studies, trials and reports.

Germany has significantly less covid deaths per capita than ireland.

Ultimiately thats how your country will defined when this is over.

How many covid deaths did you have?

Japan has a history of mouth washes and nasal sprays (see report).

Way behind us in vaccinations, because in your head thats all that matters?

Germany trying to learn from Japanese and reinstill good hygiene in Germany.

Lost on you however.

You have nothing to learn.

Western europe have alot to learn culturally from south east asian countries like Japan/South Korea Vietnam.

They have mange this covid better than us in terms of cases/deaths/hospitilisations/managing without lockdowns.

Germany have the brains to try and copy what works well for Japanese.

As we are slowly realising vaccines will not magically bring us back to 2019.

Unicorn Milk Latte

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117825377#Comment_117825377

Wow, that's some incoherent stream of consciousness blabber.

The pre-print study you linked to had a very small number of participants, only 79. No double blinding, no placebo control groups, just a general comparison to US averages.

Again, same methodology: misrepresent meaningful research for some idiotic antivax (use nasal spray instead, use ivermectin instead, use gummy bears instead) narrative. No proof yet that gummy bears are ineffective in preventing Covid. HA.

BTW, 'Nasal spray' describes a method of administering a drug, not what type of drug it is. Here's a link to a study that describes nasal administration for monoclonal antibodies for Covid in mice. But hey, like ivermectin, I'm sure there are ways to source monoclonal antibodies for Covid treatments online, so the smart ones can self-medicate...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117825502#Comment_117825502

I was waiting for the insults when you didnt like what you read....

Your correct Japanese dont use nasal sprays/mouthwash to reduce covid infections/severity and other infections.

Germany didnt commision that report recommending german population to do this also.

Japan is doing a lot worse in terms of cases and deaths of covid than ireland.

Germany is doing a lot worse in terms of cases and deaths of covid than ireland.

We have nothing to learn from other countries as we are world champions at vaccine rollout, that needs to be rolled out again.

All of this is true and I humbly apologise Sir Unicorn.

Unicorn Milk Latte

Did you see the news about antivirals?

Snorting bath salts emerges as therapeutic for Covid.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117825204#Comment_117825204

Umm, is it ever ethical not to give people the best available care?

However, the evidence is that ivermectin does not work. It's a stretch to call it 'care', and it defintely is not 'best available care'.

So the question is, is it ethical to give people something that doesn't work but still carries risks to the patient? It's not.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117825550#Comment_117825550

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3j7am9kjMrk

62% aint bad in a third world country with not enough vaccines.

Que, I dont like that study etc..............

Surprisingly they dont give two f**** what you think.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117825559#Comment_117825559

I've no idea who that bloke is, but that meta-analysis he's pimping is based heavily on discredited studies. It's completely out of date.

If you genuinely are interested in a proper meta-analysis, the Cochrane review is always regarded as the best in class (since long before Covid). Here is their take on ivermectin (spoiler alert - it isn't very positive).

Ivermectin for preventing and treating COVID‐19 - Popp, M - 2021 | Cochrane Library

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117825628#Comment_117825628

June 2021 is not "completely out of date".

I actually think alot of these treatments are only really effective if you take then before and after infection.

Thats when their efficacy is very good.

Leaving a patient with no treatment for two weeks after infection efficacy is always going to be s***.

They are b******ed at that stage.

Ivermectin works best by using to prevent infection and then increase when infected.

A randomised trial with placebos etc.

Its not going to happen for various reasons.

The doctors in those countries know this so plough on..

SortingYouOut

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117825550#Comment_117825550

If the evidence is that ivermectin doesn't work, why are so many trials still underway? Surely if the evidence was so clear, they wouldn't bother continuing research. Have you somehow managed to come to a conclusion that medical scientists across a number of countries haven't?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117825662#Comment_117825662

I actually think alot of these treatments are only really effective if you take then before and after infection.

Thats when their efficacy is very good.

Ivermectin works best by using to prevent infection and then increase when infected.

Aye, that idea worked out really well for this guy and his family -

Speaking to the San Angelo Standard-Times at the beginning of August, Jessica Wallace revealed that Caleb had refused to go to hospital at first, and turned to high doses of vitamins and anti-parasitic medicine that health officials had previously warned against.

https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/world/dad-who-led-anti-mask-protests-dies-of-covid-19-after-weeks-on-ventilator/ar-AANUFJF?ocid=mmx

We’re long past the point where silliness like “maybe there’s something in this” simply shouldn’t be entertained. Unfortunately in much the same way as scientists have to continue to debunk links between vaccines and autism, they have to continue to do the same for treatments used to treat parasite infections which are still being touted as a treatment to prevent or treat a respiratory infection. It has the same efficacy as snake oil.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117825673#Comment_117825673

Some people want to help in a crisis(doctors in countries were covid is out of control).

Others couldnt care too hoots who dies as long as they were proven RIGHT.

Pragmatism is what is needed a pandemic, not principles or set in stone beliefs.

You have to be open to learn new things and be willing to try what works.

I think this frightens some people with set beliefs and principles.

Anyway peoples true nature comes out in a pandemic.

I'm sure people in India couldnt care less.