Eirgrid warns of power outages

Royal Legend

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/1211/1183760-eirgrid-warning-outages/

So we are shutting two Peat Power Stations in the next week, Brexit is looming and lo and behold now Eirgrid are projecting that power outages may happen if there is not enough wind to drive the turbines.
Am I missing something here in regards to the future planning of electricity demand in our country, now that we have Electric Post office vans and Electric Bin trucks to come, how exactly are we going to cope?

suicide_circus

Build a nuclear plant and stop relying on dirty fossil fuels and unreliable renewables

Kivaro

I heard about this on the news this morning.
So in order to implement these "Green" policies of carbon reduction, we may well end up with rolling black-outs where areas of the country will be without power. This may end up with people losing their lives at the very most and a lot of us very inconvenienced at the very least.

Apparently they cannot even keep these peat power stations on standby just in case. Talk about cutting off the nose to spite the face. Very bewildering. But you know ............. carbon footprint in Ireland.

US2

We live on an island in the roughest sea in the world, why don't we generate power from waves? Very realiable. The big massive data centers here are a serious drain on our power supply for next to no economical gain.

beauf

Royal Legend wrote: »

[....that power outages may happen if there is not enough wind to drive the turbines. ...

That article is a little vague. I got the impression it's that high level of technical faults with generators and with link to the north leave high risk of power failure.

It's there some thing else going on here. Was there there some plan to replace it repair equipment that hasn't happened for some reason. This is a means of raising this issue?

ongarite

The 2 gas power plants in Huntstown have had serious reliability issue for many years.
Seems to be a very poorly run facility.

suicide_circus

US2 wrote: »

We live on an island in the roughest sea in the world, why don't we generate power from waves? Very realiable.

Very expensive, the technology is still in its infancy relatively speaking and like wind there is a sweet spot - too much or too few waves impact power production - but yes on paper tidal looks like the answer for ireland long term.

banie01

suicide_circus wrote: »

Build a nuclear plant and stop relying on dirty fossil fuels and unreliable renewables

I'd tend to agree with this option.
Rolls Royce are working on small modular reactor set ups that could well be ideal for covering our power gap and for providing peak load cover.
https://www.rolls-royce.com/products-and-services/nuclear/small-modular-reactors.aspx#/

If this particular iteration of nuclear works, it will be the death knell of large nuclear plants as well as fossil fuels.

SEPT 23 1989

Vote Green

Del2005

Kivaro wrote: »

I heard about this on the news this morning.
So in order to implement these "Green" policies of carbon reduction, we may well end up with rolling black-outs where areas of the country will be without power. This may end up with people losing their lives at the very most and a lot of us very inconvenienced at the very least.

Apparently they cannot even keep these peat power stations on standby just in case. Talk about cutting off the nose to spite the face. Very bewildering. But you know ............. carbon footprint in Ireland.

I wonder how many diesel and petrol generators are going to be bought by people to protect against losing power? Another not fully thought out "green" policy that will result in more pollution.

KildareP

Kivaro wrote: »

Apparently they cannot even keep these peat power stations on standby just in case. Talk about cutting off the nose to spite the face. Very bewildering. But you know ............. carbon footprint in Ireland.

The biggest problem with keeping them on standby is they're no good at reacting to sudden changes in demand.
If you want to increase the power output to cope with a sudden increased demand, start feeding in more turf to the boilers and you might have enough steam output to drive the turbines after about 4 hours...
(Or if you're starting the plant from a completely cold state, maybe 2-3 days...)

Likewise, if demand suddenly drops sharply, you end up venting all the now unnecessary steam into the atmosphere which is a complete waste of energy.

Compared to a gas turbine plant which I've seen reports can be online and generating from cold in about 15 minutes (although it sill takes several hours for the thermal side in a combined cycle plant to get going in order to reach maximum output and efficiency). However I can't imagine the Greens being happy to sanction us building more gas powered plants.

SEPT 23 1989

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Vote Green

Exactly !!

Think like Eamonn .

Buy a couple of woolie jumpers , and a few candles for when the lights are out .

Sure y'all will be grand

Seth Brundle

How is Eirgrids plan, that has been underway for a number of years, the fault of the greens?

silver2020

Total non story and look like a local Offaly political angle rather than anything else.

Huge amount of solar and wind power in development and plenty of backup. Only a few months ago it was being suggested that there was going to a huge amount of excess power. Huge battery farm also in planning.

Read the story carefully - If if if if.

So we need no wind, low solar and issues with the UK interconnector on top of peak demand for there to be a "risk".


I suspect there's a better chance of winning the lotto twice in a row.

gozunda

THE_SHEEP wrote: »

Exactly !!

Think like Eamonn .

Buy a couple of woolie jumpers , and a few candles for when the lights are out .

Sure y'all will be grand

Alternatively go very green and hug a sheep (not yourself btw)

Or bit like the carbon neutral thing. Basically China can burn all the coal it wants as long as that is offset by loads of new shiny solar arrays in Mongolia or wherever. Doesn't mean there are any less emissions...

Or carbon zero - which basically means recycle everything you own then go live in a cave and survive off sustainable hand collected insects.

I just love greenthink ...

timmyntc

suicide_circus wrote: »

Very expensive, the technology is still in its infancy relatively speaking and like wind there is a sweet spot - too much or too few waves impact power production - but yes on paper tidal looks like the answer for ireland long term.

Tidal != wave power.

Tidal needs specific sites - tide races - to work. Something like strangford narrows in North Down. Even then, it doesnt have a massive yield.

Wave power uses actual waves from big swells - but its not really commercially viable anywhere yet. There have been wave farms deployed, some in UK even, but theyre mostly a failure.

namloc1980

Gas powered stations and nuclear power. That's what provides clean, reliable and on demand electricity. None of this nonsense that if we have a windless day we'll all be sitting in the dark.

suicide_circus

timmyntc wrote: »

Tidal != wave power.

Tidal needs specific sites - tide races - to work. Something like strangford narrows in North Down. Even then, it doesnt have a massive yield.

Wave power uses actual waves from big swells - but its not really commercially viable anywhere yet. There have been wave farms deployed, some in UK even, but theyre mostly a failure.

Correct, my bad

biko

The Greens means well (I hope) but without reliable high electricity production we are ****ed.
Data centres, hospitals, banks, schools, my freezer - they all need uninterrupted power.

silver2020

silver2020 wrote: »

Total non story and look like a local Offaly political angle rather than anything else.

Huge amount of solar and wind power in development and plenty of backup. Only a few months ago it was being suggested that there was going to a huge amount of excess power. Huge battery farm also in planning.

Read the story carefully - If if if if.

So we need no wind, low solar and issues with the UK interconnector on top of peak demand for there to be a "risk".


I suspect there's a better chance of winning the lotto twice in a row.

"If if if if."???
Are you living overseas. Are you not familiar with Ireland's geographical location and climate?
We know there are days on end in the depths of winter when Ireland is under an area of Low pressure and there is no wind. That happens a couple of times ever winter.
We know there is practically no Solar resource in the depths of Winter either.

Hydro and pumped Hydro can't bridge the gap therefore fossil fuels need to be burnt or Electricity imported. The alternative is blackouts or brownouts.

timmyntc

biko wrote: »

The Greens means well (I hope) but without reliable high electricity production we are ****ed.
Data centres, hospitals, banks, schools, my freezer - they all need uninterrupted power.

It doesn't matter what the Greens intentions are - their dogmatic approach to climate & emissions will do far more harm than good.

The Shannon LNG is a good example - natural gas is probably the cleanest fossil fuel out there, and is a must for any grid with a lot of renewables. When the wind doesnt blow and the sun dont shine, you need gas in reserve. And as we decommission coal & peat plants, we will need more gas.

Calahonda52

silver2020 wrote: »

Total non story and look like a local Offaly political angle rather than anything else.

Huge amount of solar and wind power in development and plenty of backup. Only a few months ago it was being suggested that there was going to a huge amount of excess power. Huge battery farm also in planning.

Read the story carefully - If if if if.

So we need no wind, low solar and issues with the UK interconnector on top of peak demand for there to be a "risk".


I suspect there's a better chance of winning the lotto twice in a row.

The word If appears once.

The maintenance/downtime issues with existing plant is a problem.

As noted earlier, low wind/low solar is a fact each winter, the low wind is not just here but goes as far as Poland, which takes out all the north sea stuff, including the much vaunted Danish collection.

ElJeffe

Nuclear is the answer but the Green's want us all on bikes and wearing 3 jumpers.

Waste to Energy plants could potentially store up rubbish for burning in expectation of these days of low renewables production but the Greens hate Waste to Energy plants too and did their level best to prevent them being switched on even when not in Government.
They're quite happy to throw out incentives for "Well to do" people to upgrade their homes from B to A+ and purchase EV cars but security of supply for the Nation means nothing to them and they look the other way when Datacentres are mentioned.

paw patrol

THE_SHEEP wrote: »

Exactly !!

Think like Eamonn .

Buy a couple of woolie jumpers , and a few candles for when the lights are out .

Sure y'all will be grand

maybe the wolves could generate the additional power we need ?

Thelonious Monk

I think we could all use far less power if we made an effort. Look at all the buildings in cities left on 24/7 and all the things in your house you probably don't need to have on. I think Ireland is considered too small for a nuclear power plant to be considered economically viable.

ElJeffe

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I think we could all use far less power if we made an effort. Look at all the buildings in cities left on 24/7 and all the things in your house you probably don't need to have on. I think Ireland is considered too small for a nuclear power plant to be considered economically viable.

It's hugely viable. We could defeat whatever carbon output penalties Brussels have waiting for us and become an exporter of power to the UK and beyond. It's win win but like usual we won't do feck all about it.

Lettuce boxes for all.

krissovo

The hype and BS on this thread is scary and just proves how easily susceptible we are to social media crap. Blaming the greens and data centers is beyond a joke, next you will blaming us folk who drive EV’s for the drain of the grid.

Before you jump to conclusions you should qualify your statements, Eirgrid has a plan and has had for many years. Any shortfall of renewables will be met by nuclear power but not our own generated, it will be French nuclear power via the Celtic interconnector that is in planning right now.

beauf

Calahonda52 wrote: »

The word If appears on

ce.

The maintenance/downtime issues with existing plant is a problem.

As noted earlier, low wind/low solar is a fact each winter, the low wind is not just here but goes as far as Poland, which takes out all the north sea stuff, including the much vaunted Danish collection.

Key parts of that article.

...Eirgrid said the risks posed by the growing level of generator-forced outages in other stations remains high....

Is this not fixable?

Political representatives in the Midlands say the two stations should be kept on standby,

What else would they say. I assume if we needed them, we wouldn't be closing them down.

Is this just a click bait to get people frothing at the mouth about the greens, or what's the point of it.

gozunda

timmyntc wrote: »

It doesn't matter what the Greens intentions are - their dogmatic approach to climate & emissions will do far more harm than good.

The Shannon LNG is a good example - natural gas is probably the cleanest fossil fuel out there, and is a must for any grid with a lot of renewables. When the wind doesnt blow and the sun dont shine, you need gas in reserve. And as we decommission coal & peat plants, we will need more gas.

Its not just gas - New hydro-electric power is also now verboten according to the 'green new deal' bloxology.

Boggles

Nothing to do with making data centers strategic infrastructure.

Gotta keep those cat gifs cold.

More carbon taxes for everyone else will solve it.

Triangle

biko wrote: »

The Greens means well (I hope) but without reliable high electricity production we are ****ed.
Data centres, hospitals, banks, schools, my freezer - they all need uninterrupted power.

Eh the greens are a minority in government for the last 6 months.
I don't think the greens being decimated after 2010 left them much influence with the government over the previous years.

But the others ranting about the greens being the cause of this is a little ott. It might be their policy but they're not the cause. I think every party agreed with the Paris climate agreement.

But I suppose people just need someone to target.

JimmyVik

I thought anyone with an electric car was supposed to be able to plug them in to their house as a backup supply by now.
Thats what the greens were saying over a decade ago anyway.

gozunda

krissovo wrote: »

The hype and BS on this thread is scary and just proves how easily susceptible we are to social media crap. Blaming the greens and data centers is beyond a joke, next you will blaming us folk who drive EV’s for the drain of the grid.

Before you jump to conclusions you should qualify your statements, Eirgrid has a plan and has had for many years. Any shortfall of renewables will be met by nuclear power but not our own generated, it will be French nuclear power via the Celtic interconnector that is in planning right now.

So you decry generalities with more generalities ok lol. But yeah the greens well deserve criticism and no not everyone who does so - engages in group think or hates all EV owners...

That French nuclear power thing?

France has pledged to reduce its reliance on nuclear power by shutting down 12 nuclear reactors by 2035.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53233385

Apparently France will be importing energy from Germany produced using fossils fuels ..

Nermal

Your living standards depend on carbon emissions:



Policies like this:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/eu-reaches-landmark-agreement-to-cut-emissions-55-by-2030-1.4433902

will make you poorer. They may not cause power outages, but the warnings from Eirgrid are the canary in the decommissioned coal mine. They will cause us to spend more and more of our income on energy, and the more we spend on it the less we have to spend on everything else.

Thelonious Monk

Triangle wrote: »

Eh the greens are a minority in government for the last 6 months.
I don't think the greens being decimated after 2010 left them much influence with the government over the previous years.

But the others ranting about the greens being the cause of this is a little ott. It might be their policy but they're not the cause. I think every party agreed with the Paris climate agreement.

But I suppose people just need someone to target.

Yes I find it ridiculous that everyone blames the greens for carbon taxes etc when a FG government signed up for the Paris Agreement.
Also today, "EU leaders agree to cut emissions by 55% over the next decade after all-night summit", so we'll have to fall in line with that too, is that Eamon Ryan's fault too?
By the sounds of things I'll be the only person voting green in the next election so who will they blame when the greens have no seats in the dail?

Thelonious Monk

Nermal wrote: »

Your living standards depend on carbon emissions:

will make you poorer. They may not cause power outages, but the warnings from Eirgrid are the canary in the decommissioned coal mine. They will cause us to spend more and more of our income on energy, and the more we spend on it the less we have to spend on everything else.

We can't really continue as is though, so something needs to change, if we carry on at the rate we're going there'll be nothing left of the earth in a few years.
So much power and consumption of resources is wasted on crap that we don't need.

biko

Triangle wrote: »

But the others ranting about the greens being the cause of this is a little ott. It might be their policy but they're not the cause. I think every party agreed with the Paris climate agreement.

The Paris accord doesn't prevent nuclear power.
Afaik only Eamon Ryan is opposed to nuclear power for Ireland.

Idbatterim

suicide_circus wrote: »

Build a nuclear plant and stop relying on dirty fossil fuels and unreliable renewables

Will not happen here in our lifetime!

Danzy

suicide_circus wrote: »

Build a nuclear plant and stop relying on dirty fossil fuels and unreliable renewables

The economics of Nuclear power are horrendous.


It's an old industry now and cost is killing it.

Theoretical fusion reactors etc may change that in time but maybe not.

Danzy

biko wrote: »

The Paris accord doesn't prevent nuclear power.
Afaik only Eamon Ryan is opposed to nuclear power for Ireland.

No private investor will invest in Nuclear without the State guaranteeing to cover long term costs.

That makes it very expensive long-term.

Atlantic Dawn

I can see a ban on using Christmas lights coming, lol.

Triangle

biko wrote: »

The Paris accord doesn't prevent nuclear power.
Afaik only Eamon Ryan is opposed to nuclear power for Ireland.

I think you'll find the people living beside it would object to it too.

But my point is that it might be green policy, but they have not been making the decisions. So how can they be at fault?

Surely FF and FG who have been in power for the last 100 years are against Nuclear power or we'd have one by now

Danzy

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

You are missing the point, nuclear power is a bridge to

1. immediately stop using fossil fuels

2. buy time (2-3 decades) for renewables (wind, pv) and grids to improve which they are but at this rate it be decades


Compare that to the cost of continuing to burn fossil fuels while renewables have not caught up.

edit: While the rest are talking about going green the French are using above approach and growing their renewables now, and actually are the greenest country in europe.

That's fair enough. I've no problem with Nuclear bar the insane economic costs.

For the cost output any other alternative is significantly better including environmental perspective

beauf

I'd prefer to use Frances Nuclear power if it comes to that.
Take the advantages and outsource the disadvantages.

beauf

Nermal wrote: »

...

will make you poorer. They may not cause power outages, but the warnings from Eirgrid are the canary in the decommissioned coal mine. They will cause us to spend more and more of our income on energy, and the more we spend on it the less we have to spend on everything else.

I still don't get it.

They are the canary for what exactly? What is the warning here.

whisky_galore

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

1. the sea is one of the harshest environments imaginable, **** literally rusts away, maybe blocking off one or more bays and using tidal based difference is a better option but you can bet that would be opposed by locals and/or greens on environmental grounds

2. datacenters create jobs directly (technicians) and indirectly (Irish tech sector is one of the glowing stars of the economy)


I said it 15 years ago working in power generation that Ireland needs nuclear to tie us over for 20-40 years while renewable and grids are build (those also face opposition from NIMBYs)

aside: i have solar pv and solar hot water on my roof + battery so not opposed to renewables, I am a realist however


I think greenpeace (and the Greens) have a lot to answer for, their opposition and demonisation of nuclear in 80s and 90s has led to decades of coal/oil/gas/peat powerplants all around the world, with renewables only now approaching a descent pricepoint, and better grids still being hindered by lack of superconductors and NIMBYism

Yes Chernobyl and Fukushima are terrible accidents, but no one here would suggest, France or Finland are nuclear wastelands as a counterpart. France to this day remains one of the greenest economies in Europe CO2 emissions wise and now they are building up their renewables

Data centres create only a handful of jobs for all they suck out of the national grid. Big empty buildings for the most part.

correct horse battery staple

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Wind/solar is cheaper than nuclear now in 2020 of course theres no denying that like i said u have solar pv on my roof (doing **** all today)

BUT

these have crazy peaks and lows (subject of thread)

the solution to that is battery storage (and/or more pumped hydro) and/or maybe conversion to hydrogen which is approach Germany seems to be taking

BUT

these are very expensive and are only an emerging technology, see trials Tesla is doing in Australia i mentioned earlier, and of course car companies are gobling up all the lithium for car batteries, which is not exactly an environmentally green element to mine, along with a ton of rare earth elements that needed in wind and solar.

There is a reason China is a leader in wind and solar, they tolerate massive environmental damage in their own country in processing the rare earth elements required for these.


So it all goes back to my point

step1. nuclear to buy 20-40 years and immediately shutdown coal/oil/turf plant

step2. build more wind + pv + battery storage in that time, with gas dealing with peaking needs

step3. decommission nuclear in 2050-2060 and by then the work done in step2 can hopefully handle the loads. Who knows we might also have fusion cracked by then and viable economically.

I'd prefer an interconnector and purchase Nuclear or Hydro from France or Norway. In a number of years then the interconnector will be used to sell Wind electricity to Europe when we have it spare to sell.

ED E

whisky_galore wrote: »

Data centres create only a handful of jobs for all they suck out of the national grid. Big empty buildings for the most part.

Data centers save us from power outages, before you go talking out your arse.

In addition to customers individually participating in the schemes operated by EirGrid, medium to large electricity users can participate in a Demand Side Unit (DSU) or Aggregated Generating Unit (AGU). A Demand Side Unit consists of one or more demand sites that can reduce their demand when instructed by EirGrid or SONI. The Demand Side Unit has one hour to reduce its demand and must be capable of maintaining the demand reduction for at least two hours.

Any large facility that has generators can be flipped off grid if we're red lining and deliver back a mountain of capacity to the grid.

This whole story is nonsense postering, Eirgrid/ESBN were never putting themselves in an at risk position. Theyve always gotten whatever they've wanted on the basis that we always keep the lights on.

Nermal

beauf wrote: »

What is the warning here.

That decarbonisation is impossible without vast, vast expenditure.

The result of that expenditure being that we're all significantly poorer - we're generating and consuming the same amount power but paying a lot more for it.

Eirgrid needing more resources to keep the lights on in the face of carbon constraints is one step on this road.

whisky_galore

whisky_galore wrote: »

Data centres create only a handful of jobs for all they suck out of the national grid. Big empty buildings for the most part.

I am so sick of hearing that argument.

The IT department of the company I work for is about 700 people. They don't all actually work in the data centre, but if the DC didn't exist neither would their jobs. I'm sat at home in Galway but working on a system thats whirring away in the data centre.