My proposal for Dublin taxis & bus lanes

Dick Turnip

So, have been thinking recently....it's crazy that taxis are allowed use bus lanes when they have no passengers. I'm coming around to the idea that they shouldn't be in them at all to be honest.

Obviously hard to police only allowing use of the lane if carrying a fare as it is, so you would need to change the taxi plates/light on the the roof. Change the plate so that instead of being yellow/blue as it is now, it would be bright red or green depending on whether available or not.

If the taxi is free, the plate is lit green, and shouldn't be in the bus lane. If the taxi has a fare, the taxi sign is lit red, and the taxi can use the bus lane.

Thoughts? Do you think the plate/light system could do with an upgrade? And do you think that use of the bus lanes by taxis should be curtailed or even banned?

Effects

Dick Turnip wrote: »

So, have been thinking recently....it's crazy that taxis are allowed use bus lanes when they have no passengers.

I didn't think they were?

Dick Turnip wrote: »

Change the plate so that instead of being yellow/blue as it is now, it would be bright red or green depending on whether available or not.

Majority of taxi drivers can't even figure out how to turn their light off when they have a fare. And now you want to complicate it even further.

Dick Turnip wrote: »

I'm coming around to the idea that they shouldn't be in them at all to be honest.

So instead of me taking a 20 minute taxi journey into town, at the cost of €18, you want my taxi journey to take over an hour and cost me about €60.
People would just drive their cars more and traffic would get worse.

cgcsb

If it were me, I'd just ban taxis from bus lanes between the hours of 7 and 7. The NTA are supposedly bringing in camera based enfocement for bus lanes anyway so that could be used to manage taxis also. With the roll out of 24hr buses the taxi industry looks like it's way to a greatly reduced business model. The bulk of taxi journeys are taken after midnight (pre covid).

Dick Turnip

Effects wrote: »

I didn't think they were?

Actually, you are correct but they all use the bus lanes at all times regardless of whether they have a fare or not.

Majority of taxi drivers can't even figure out how to turn their light off when they have a fare. And now you want to complicate it even further.

That really isn't reason enough not to introduce something, never mind this. Also, it's not a complication. It makes it easier to spot whether a taxi is in use or not. For the driver it's the same difference of flicking a switch surely? Basically a taxi would only be in the bus lane if their plate was lit red. The driver could put on the red light to use it, but they would be less likely to pick up a fare off the street then.

So instead of me taking a 20 minute taxi journey into town, at the cost of €18, you want my taxi journey to take over an hour and cost me about €60.
People would just drive their cars more and traffic would get worse.

Well, my suggestion was that the taxi could use the bus lane with a fare, so your 20 minute journey would be the same?

As to your second point here, the other option would be for you to get the bus/luas/dart? I want a functioning public transport system. A taxi takes up the same space as a private car. Taxis are great and convenient and all that, but I don't know why they are put on a similar standing as buses when they should be the same as any other car really. So what if you paid €18 for the privilege, the city is clogged because too many people drive instead of using public transport.

Dick Turnip

cgcsb wrote: »

If it were me, I'd just ban taxis from bus lanes between the hours of 7 and 7. The NTA are supposedly bringing in camera based enfocement for bus lanes anyway so that could be used to manage taxis also. With the roll out of 24hr buses the taxi industry looks like it's way to a greatly reduced business model. The bulk of taxi journeys are taken after midnight (pre covid).

That's actually probably the best suggestion in fairness. Taxis are great for nights out, but they should not be impeding public transport during commuting hours.

loyatemu

cgcsb wrote: »

If it were me, I'd just ban taxis from bus lanes between the hours of 7 and 7. The NTA are supposedly bringing in camera based enfocement for bus lanes anyway so that could be used to manage taxis also. With the roll out of 24hr buses the taxi industry looks like it's way to a greatly reduced business model. The bulk of taxi journeys are taken after midnight (pre covid).

ban them altogether - either a road is congested, in which case the buslane should be reserved for buses; or it's not congested in which case the taxis don't need to use the bus lane. They're not public transport, and when they're driving around with no passengers they're literally transporting no-one while taking up road space so are worse than private cars.

ED E

Lets be honest, the whole debate is moot when bus lanes mean diddly squat in Ireland.

Dick Turnip

ED E wrote: »

Lets be honest, the whole debate is moot when bus lanes mean diddly squat in Ireland.

Bus cameras should be used to enforce this. They do it in New York.

https://www.masstransitmag.com/bus/vehicles/press-release/21149377/mta-new-york-city-transit-mta-nycdot-announce-expansion-of-bus-lane-camera-enforcement

con747

Dick Turnip wrote: »

That's actually probably the best suggestion in fairness. Taxis are great for nights out, but they should not be impeding public transport during commuting hours.

Try getting to a hospital or another such important appointment in a wheelchair or other disabilities that can't use public transport as has been pointed out numerous times in the news about buses passing people in wheelchairs by.

ED E

Yeah except the NTA, Gardai and Dept of Justice are still scrapping about it.

We have red light cameras, they're turned off. #OnlyInIreland

boombang

ED E wrote: »

Yeah except the NTA, Gardai and Dept of Justice are still scrapping about it.

We have red light cameras, they're turned off. #OnlyInIreland

The main issue for any rules is going to be enforcement. We're woeful at enforcement at pretty much anything in Ireland. I'd legislate to allow private companies do the enforcement. If you don't pay the fine, then private clampers can seize the vehicle take ownership. It would be brutal and unpopular, but very effective.

ED E

boombang wrote: »

The main issue for any rules is going to be enforcement. We're woeful at enforcement at pretty much anything in Ireland. I'd legislate to allow private companies do the enforcement. If you don't pay the fine, then private clampers can seize the vehicle take ownership. It would be brutal and unpopular, but very effective.

Dublin pays DSPS millions for enforcement and they do diddly squat. Private sector could do it if the contract managers in the civil service weren't so incompetent.

Dick Turnip

loyatemu wrote: »

ban them altogether - either a road is congested, in which case the buslane should be reserved for buses; or it's not congested in which case the taxis don't need to use the bus lane. They're not public transport, and when they're driving around with no passengers they're literally transporting no-one while taking up road space so are worse than private cars.

Yeah, people need to stop equating taxis with buses as another form of public transport option. They are in reality a private car hire

Effects

Dick Turnip wrote: »

Also, it's not a complication. It makes it easier to spot whether a taxi is in use or not. For the driver it's the same difference of flicking a switch surely?

Yeah, it's flicking a switch, which most of them can't even manage at the moment anyway. Changing the colour of the lights won't make much difference.

Well, my suggestion was that the taxi could use the bus lane with a fare, so your 20 minute journey would be the same?

I quoted you directly where you said:

I'm coming around to the idea that they shouldn't be in them at all to be honest.

So then my 20 minute journey wouldn't be the same within the parameters you had set out.

Dick Turnip

con747 wrote: »

Try getting to a hospital or another such important appointment in a wheelchair or other disabilities that can't use public transport as has been pointed out numerous times in the news about buses passing people in wheelchairs by.

They could still get taxis, but might have to allow for more time?

Effects

Dick Turnip wrote: »

Yeah, people need to stop equating taxis with buses as another form of public transport option. They are in reality a private car hire

But it's multiple people hiring that car over the course of a day. Rather than multiple people deciding to drive multiple cars instead, taking up space on the road, and then parking.

Effects

ED E wrote: »

We have red light cameras, they're turned off. #OnlyInIreland

Have you got a source for that?

Effects

Effects wrote: »

But it's multiple people hiring that car over the course of a day. Rather than multiple people deciding to drive multiple cars instead, taking up space on the road, and then parking.

One passenger sitting in a taxi is taking as much road space as the same person driving their own car at any given time. That the taxi might make extra trips after doesn't reduce the amount congestion added, unless those people are sharing or something.
The taxi making extra trips to collect or reposition could even be adding to the amount of trips.

Dick Turnip

Effects wrote: »

Yeah, it's flicking a switch, which most of them can't even manage at the moment anyway. Changing the colour of the lights won't make much difference.



I quoted you directly where you said:

Sorry, probably badly worded in my OP alright. I was suggesting switching the lights as an easier way to enforce the bus lane use by taxis (if the will was there to enforce obviously). Also, red/green light would make it easier to spot a free taxi on the street if you needed one.


As an aside, I used to think it would be crazy to ban taxis from using the lane altogether, but I am coming around to the idea of it.

Effects wrote: »

So then my 20 minute journey wouldn't be the same within the parameters you had set out.

But back to this point - the other option is you could use the bus or luas?

Also the whole point is that emptier bus lanes -> buses become more attractive for people to use -> people switch to public transport more -> traffic eases a bit for people that need/choose to drive

Dick Turnip

Effects wrote: »

But it's multiple people hiring that car over the course of a day. Rather than multiple people deciding to drive multiple cars instead, taking up space on the road, and then parking.

Deleted User wrote: »

One passenger sitting in a taxi is taking as much road space as the same person driving their own car at any given time. That the taxi might make extra trips after doesn't reduce the amount congestion added, unless those people are sharing or something.
The taxi making extra trips to collect or reposition could even be adding to the amount of trips.

pg633 hit the nail on the head here

robertpatterson

If the taxi is on the way to pick up theyre allowed to use the bus lane i always thought?
That and also if theyre dropping a package off for a fare they can also as theyd be on the meter
Either case would be the driver in the car alone so i dont know what your solution to that is

Ashleigh1986

So you want taxis to be stuck in heavy traffic while the customer waits at their house or place of business for same taxi to arrive ???.
Taxis have their place in the transport system .
To get people from a to b it's vital that taxis are allowed to operate in bus lanes .

Ashleigh1986

loyatemu wrote: »

ban them altogether - either a road is congested, in which case the buslane should be reserved for buses; or it's not congested in which case the taxis don't need to use the bus lane. They're not public transport, and when they're driving around with no passengers they're literally transporting no-one while taking up road space so are worse than private cars.

TAXIS ARE NOT PUBLIC TRANSPORT ?????
Congrats on the most stupid post I've ever seen .
What or who do you think are in the taxis ?

cgcsb

loyatemu wrote: »

ban them altogether - either a road is congested, in which case the buslane should be reserved for buses; or it's not congested in which case the taxis don't need to use the bus lane. They're not public transport, and when they're driving around with no passengers they're literally transporting no-one while taking up road space so are worse than private cars.

I do agree with your sentiment but I'm more taking into account that the vast majority of bus lanes are only 7-7 anyway and it's only central areas and some inner suburbs that have notorious pinch points that will be enforced at all anyway.

loyatemu

cgcsb wrote: »

I do agree with your sentiment but I'm more taking into account that the vast majority of bus lanes are only 7-7 anyway and it's only central areas and some inner suburbs that have notorious pinch points that will be enforced at all anyway.

well that's a problem with the lanes then, the rush hour starts well before 7am and ends after 7pm in most of Dublin, the hours of the lanes should be extended, or they should all be 24H.

ElJeffe

Just ban taxis from using them. Bus lanes exclusively for Dublin buses, coach's, minibuses etc...

Effects

Dick Turnip wrote: »

Also, red/green light would make it easier to spot a free taxi on the street if you needed one.

Same problem persists, where the taxi driver won't switch the colour of the lights.

But back to this point - the other option is you could use the bus or luas?

Not always an option based on where I'm going, equipment I'm carrying, etc.
My father is disabled, he can't get to the bus.

cgcsb

loyatemu wrote: »

well that's a problem with the lanes then, the rush hour starts well before 7am and ends after 7pm in most of Dublin, the hours of the lanes should be extended, or they should all be 24H.

I'd agree, but first things first, enforce the existing rules. We have a 24 hour bus lane on Bachelors walk at the moment and it's choco block with cars most of the time.

Effects

Ashleigh1986 wrote: »

TAXIS ARE NOT PUBLIC TRANSPORT ?????

What or who do you think are in the taxis ?

magicbastarder

Ashleigh1986 wrote: »

So you want taxis to be stuck in heavy traffic while the customer waits at their house or place of business for same taxi to arrive ???.
Taxis have their place in the transport system .
To get people from a to b it's vital that taxis are allowed to operate in bus lanes .

if i want to get from A to B, if i hail a taxi, i'm allowed used the bus lane. if i drive, i'm not. yet both journeys use the exact same mode of transport, and achieve the same end.

and has been pointed out, if i drive myself, the car is only on the road from A to B, whereas a taxi may have to drive empty for several KM to get to my house.

GT89

They should be banned from certain bus lanes especially around the city centre where there are too many taxis causing congestion. From what I noticed it dosen't seem to be such an issue in the suburbs for example I don't see too much issue with taxis in the bus lane along the n11.

Also if taxis without a fare should be banned from the bus lane should out of service buses also be banned?

Spook_ie

robertpatterson wrote: »

If the taxi is on the way to pick up theyre allowed to use the bus lane i always thought?
That and also if theyre dropping a package off for a fare they can also as theyd be on the meter
Either case would be the driver in the car alone so i dont know what your solution to that is

Actually, the regulations are taxis may use the bus lanes when engaged with a passenger, on the way to collect a passenger or when plying for hire. They aren't allowed to use the bus lane when transporting goods without an accompanying passenger that the goods belong to or are responsible for.


Some thoughts for anyone else in the conversation:

As to not being allowed to use the bus lane at all, just imagine the casualties caused by passengers running across the bus lane to enter/exit a taxi or in the case of only with passengers, the increased number of collisions as taxis cross the bus lane to service passenger requests.

SPSV Small PUBLIC service vehicle, which means with certain exceptions they are available for public use, unlike private hire who can pick and choose passengers at whim without giving reason why. Yes I know all about taxi drivers in cities refusing short/long fares but legally they aren't allowed to.

Spook_ie

Deleted User wrote: »

One passenger sitting in a taxi is taking as much road space as the same person driving their own car at any given time. That the taxi might make extra trips after doesn't reduce the amount congestion added, unless those people are sharing or something.
The taxi making extra trips to collect or reposition could even be adding to the amount of trips.

No they aren't, if you have a single person using their own car they have to secure and park it before returning to it and commencing a further journey, a taxi does away with the need to provide parking, thus allowing more road space to alleviate congestion.

Spook_ie

magicbastarder wrote: »

if i want to get from A to B, if i hail a taxi, i'm allowed used the bus lane. if i drive, i'm not. yet both journeys use the exact same mode of transport, and achieve the same end.

and has been pointed out, if i drive myself, the car is only on the road from A to B, whereas a taxi may have to drive empty for several KM to get to my house.

And what do you do with your car at A and especially B?

Dick Turnip

Ashleigh1986 wrote: »

So you want taxis to be stuck in heavy traffic while the customer waits at their house or place of business for same taxi to arrive ???.
Taxis have their place in the transport system .
To get people from a to b it's vital that taxis are allowed to operate in bus lanes .

Why is it vital though? Genuinely, why should someone going from A to B be allowed use a bus lane just because they chose to get a taxi instead of drive themselves. What's the difference between the two really?

Dick Turnip

Spook_ie wrote: »

No they aren't, if you have a single person using their own car they have to secure and park it before returning to it and commencing a further journey, a taxi does away with the need to provide parking, thus allowing more road space to alleviate congestion.

But what you're saying there can be applied to buses. I just think that buses should be given #1 priority and not give taxis the same privilege.

Dick Turnip

Effects wrote: »

Same problem persists, where the taxi driver won't switch the colour of the lights.



Not always an option based on where I'm going, equipment I'm carrying, etc.
My father is disabled, he can't get to the bus.

Yes, but make driving in the bus lane with a green light a fineable offence.

That's fine but if your driving and transporting equipment or giving your father a lift, you have to drive in the normal lane and sit in traffic. Why then if you do the same thing in a taxi should somebody get to use the bus lane instead.

Spook_ie

Dick Turnip wrote: »

But what you're saying there can be applied to buses. I just think that buses should be given #1 priority and not give taxis the same privilege.

And when the bus stop is 3 miles from where you need to be? or the rescheduled meeting means you should have left an hour ago but only found out now?

I think you need to rethink what taxis are actually about rather than viewing them as private cars, the main clue is in their legal definition of SPSV ( Small PUBLIC Service Vehicle )

Spook_ie

Dick Turnip wrote: »

Yes, but make driving in the bus lane with a green light a fineable offence.

That's fine but if your driving and transporting equipment or giving your father a lift, you have to drive in the normal lane and sit in traffic. Why then if you do the same thing in a taxi should somebody get to use the bus lane instead.

Because it's an SPSV not a private car

Dick Turnip

Spook_ie wrote: »

And when the bus stop is 3 miles from where you need to be?

You can still get a taxi?

Spook_ie wrote: »

or the rescheduled meeting means you should have left an hour ago but only found out now?

Irrelevant to be honest.

Spook_ie wrote: »

I think you need to rethink what taxis are actually about rather than viewing them as private cars, the main clue is in their legal definition of SPSV ( Small PUBLIC Service Vehicle )

I'm saying I think we need to rethink what taxis actually are I suppose. I don't think hired car transporting more often than not, just one person, should be considered public transport.

None of this thread is saying ban taxis or reduce numbers, it's saying prioritise buses over them, in the city centre especially

magicbastarder

Spook_ie wrote: »

a taxi does away with the need to provide parking, thus allowing more road space to alleviate congestion.

i'd accept that, if taxis never drove around with no passengers.
if i book a taxi to come to my house to pick me up, to get me from A to B, does it simply appear in a puff of smoke outside my house?
and even if it did, that's great. doesn't mean it should be allowed use the bus lane. it's an efficient a use of the bus lane as a private car is.

Wishbone Ash

Dick Turnip wrote: »

Yes, but make driving in the bus lane with a green light a fineable offence....

I don't agree with your proposal but leaving that aside, why a green light when no passenger?

Shouldn't it be the other way round - green normally meaning good to go/ok/legit etc.

(And to those saying that at present some taxi drivers can't even manage to switch on/off roof sign - I thought it switched off automatically when the meter was activated?)

Dick Turnip

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I don't agree with your proposal but leaving that aside, why a green light when no passenger?

Shouldn't it be the other way round - green normally meaning good to go/ok/legit etc.

(And to those saying that at present some taxi drivers can't even manage to switch on/off roof sign - I thought it switched off automatically when the meter was activated?)

Green to signal the taxi is available, red to signal it's got a passenger/not available to hire. Nothing to do with use of bus lanes, I just think it makes it easier to see

Spook_ie

magicbastarder wrote: »

i'd accept that, if taxis never drove around with no passengers.
if i book a taxi to come to my house to pick me up, to get me from A to B, does it simply appear in a puff of smoke outside my house?
and even if it did, that's great. doesn't mean it should be allowed use the bus lane. it's an efficient a use of the bus lane as a private car is.

Ideally if you are ordering a taxi to collect you, then the nearest available is allocated, so not driving empty for miles but only a short distance.

So what about people who want to walk on the street and hail a taxi, they're already covered.

Taxis are not private cars they are by definition SPSVs, Small Public Service Vehicles, perhaps you'd like all SPSVs to be minibuses and transport 1 or 2 passengers in a minibus?

And the bit you didn't answer, what do you do with your car when you get to B?

saabsaab

Sure what harm are they doing in the bus lane? If they weren't they would just add to the congestion.

Wishbone Ash

saabsaab wrote: »

Sure what harm are they doing in the bus lane? If they weren't they would just add to the congestion.

Presumably because they are congesting the bus lane.

Dick Turnip

saabsaab wrote: »

Sure what harm are they doing in the bus lane? If they weren't they would just add to the congestion.

Well they're adding to congestion in the bus lane, instead of the general traffic. You reduce the congestion for buses, they run better and more efficiently.

The goal is not necessarily to penalise taxis, it is to help buses. Dublin is one of the most congested cities in Europe. We need less people in cars and more on public transport where possible.

Dick Turnip

Dick Turnip wrote: »

Well they're adding to congestion in the bus lane, instead of the general traffic. You reduce the congestion for buses, they run better and more efficiently.

The goal is not necessarily to penalise taxis, it is to help buses. Dublin is one of the most congested cities in Europe. We need less people in cars and more on public transport where possible.

The bus is more likely to be slowing down the taxi than the other way around.

Wishbone Ash

Dick Turnip wrote: »

... We need less people in cars...

...or more people in cars rather than single occupancy.

Charles Babbage

Effects wrote: »

Majority of taxi drivers can't even figure out how to turn their light off when they have a fare. And now you want to complicate it even further.

Easy. Have an in use light connected to the meter. If the meter is running then the taxi can use the bus lane. If the meter is running then the taxi is earning and this is of interest to the revenue.

Dick Turnip

Spook_ie wrote: »

Taxis are not private cars they are by definition SPSVs, Small Public Service Vehicles, perhaps you'd like all SPSVs to be minibuses and transport 1 or 2 passengers in a minibus?

And the bit you didn't answer, what do you do with your car when you get to B?

The goal shouldn't be to get people from their own cars in to taxis, the goal should be to get them on to a bus/luas/tram.

Nobody is disputing that taxis aren't private cars but they they are in effect the same as a private car. They add to congestion as much as a car and more so, where there's a bus lane, they add to congestion of buses carrying multiples of the number of people in them.

Could someone could explain the logic behind why a taxi with one occupant should go in a bus lane while a solo driver can't?

Bus lanes were presumably introduced to facilitate getting as many people as possible about the city where space is at a premium. Surely taxis just negate that to a degree?