My proposal for Dublin taxis & bus lanes

Spook_ie

robertpatterson wrote: »

If the taxi is on the way to pick up theyre allowed to use the bus lane i always thought?
That and also if theyre dropping a package off for a fare they can also as theyd be on the meter
Either case would be the driver in the car alone so i dont know what your solution to that is

Actually, the regulations are taxis may use the bus lanes when engaged with a passenger, on the way to collect a passenger or when plying for hire. They aren't allowed to use the bus lane when transporting goods without an accompanying passenger that the goods belong to or are responsible for.


Some thoughts for anyone else in the conversation:

As to not being allowed to use the bus lane at all, just imagine the casualties caused by passengers running across the bus lane to enter/exit a taxi or in the case of only with passengers, the increased number of collisions as taxis cross the bus lane to service passenger requests.

SPSV Small PUBLIC service vehicle, which means with certain exceptions they are available for public use, unlike private hire who can pick and choose passengers at whim without giving reason why. Yes I know all about taxi drivers in cities refusing short/long fares but legally they aren't allowed to.

Spook_ie

Deleted User wrote: »

One passenger sitting in a taxi is taking as much road space as the same person driving their own car at any given time. That the taxi might make extra trips after doesn't reduce the amount congestion added, unless those people are sharing or something.
The taxi making extra trips to collect or reposition could even be adding to the amount of trips.

No they aren't, if you have a single person using their own car they have to secure and park it before returning to it and commencing a further journey, a taxi does away with the need to provide parking, thus allowing more road space to alleviate congestion.

Spook_ie

magicbastarder wrote: »

if i want to get from A to B, if i hail a taxi, i'm allowed used the bus lane. if i drive, i'm not. yet both journeys use the exact same mode of transport, and achieve the same end.

and has been pointed out, if i drive myself, the car is only on the road from A to B, whereas a taxi may have to drive empty for several KM to get to my house.

And what do you do with your car at A and especially B?

Dick Turnip

Ashleigh1986 wrote: »

So you want taxis to be stuck in heavy traffic while the customer waits at their house or place of business for same taxi to arrive ???.
Taxis have their place in the transport system .
To get people from a to b it's vital that taxis are allowed to operate in bus lanes .

Why is it vital though? Genuinely, why should someone going from A to B be allowed use a bus lane just because they chose to get a taxi instead of drive themselves. What's the difference between the two really?

Dick Turnip

Spook_ie wrote: »

No they aren't, if you have a single person using their own car they have to secure and park it before returning to it and commencing a further journey, a taxi does away with the need to provide parking, thus allowing more road space to alleviate congestion.

But what you're saying there can be applied to buses. I just think that buses should be given #1 priority and not give taxis the same privilege.

Dick Turnip

Effects wrote: »

Same problem persists, where the taxi driver won't switch the colour of the lights.



Not always an option based on where I'm going, equipment I'm carrying, etc.
My father is disabled, he can't get to the bus.

Yes, but make driving in the bus lane with a green light a fineable offence.

That's fine but if your driving and transporting equipment or giving your father a lift, you have to drive in the normal lane and sit in traffic. Why then if you do the same thing in a taxi should somebody get to use the bus lane instead.

Spook_ie

Dick Turnip wrote: »

But what you're saying there can be applied to buses. I just think that buses should be given #1 priority and not give taxis the same privilege.

And when the bus stop is 3 miles from where you need to be? or the rescheduled meeting means you should have left an hour ago but only found out now?

I think you need to rethink what taxis are actually about rather than viewing them as private cars, the main clue is in their legal definition of SPSV ( Small PUBLIC Service Vehicle )

Spook_ie

Dick Turnip wrote: »

Yes, but make driving in the bus lane with a green light a fineable offence.

That's fine but if your driving and transporting equipment or giving your father a lift, you have to drive in the normal lane and sit in traffic. Why then if you do the same thing in a taxi should somebody get to use the bus lane instead.

Because it's an SPSV not a private car

Dick Turnip

Spook_ie wrote: »

And when the bus stop is 3 miles from where you need to be?

You can still get a taxi?

Spook_ie wrote: »

or the rescheduled meeting means you should have left an hour ago but only found out now?

Irrelevant to be honest.

Spook_ie wrote: »

I think you need to rethink what taxis are actually about rather than viewing them as private cars, the main clue is in their legal definition of SPSV ( Small PUBLIC Service Vehicle )

I'm saying I think we need to rethink what taxis actually are I suppose. I don't think hired car transporting more often than not, just one person, should be considered public transport.

None of this thread is saying ban taxis or reduce numbers, it's saying prioritise buses over them, in the city centre especially

magicbastarder

Spook_ie wrote: »

a taxi does away with the need to provide parking, thus allowing more road space to alleviate congestion.

i'd accept that, if taxis never drove around with no passengers.
if i book a taxi to come to my house to pick me up, to get me from A to B, does it simply appear in a puff of smoke outside my house?
and even if it did, that's great. doesn't mean it should be allowed use the bus lane. it's an efficient a use of the bus lane as a private car is.

Wishbone Ash

Dick Turnip wrote: »

Yes, but make driving in the bus lane with a green light a fineable offence....

I don't agree with your proposal but leaving that aside, why a green light when no passenger?

Shouldn't it be the other way round - green normally meaning good to go/ok/legit etc.

(And to those saying that at present some taxi drivers can't even manage to switch on/off roof sign - I thought it switched off automatically when the meter was activated?)

Dick Turnip

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I don't agree with your proposal but leaving that aside, why a green light when no passenger?

Shouldn't it be the other way round - green normally meaning good to go/ok/legit etc.

(And to those saying that at present some taxi drivers can't even manage to switch on/off roof sign - I thought it switched off automatically when the meter was activated?)

Green to signal the taxi is available, red to signal it's got a passenger/not available to hire. Nothing to do with use of bus lanes, I just think it makes it easier to see

Spook_ie

magicbastarder wrote: »

i'd accept that, if taxis never drove around with no passengers.
if i book a taxi to come to my house to pick me up, to get me from A to B, does it simply appear in a puff of smoke outside my house?
and even if it did, that's great. doesn't mean it should be allowed use the bus lane. it's an efficient a use of the bus lane as a private car is.

Ideally if you are ordering a taxi to collect you, then the nearest available is allocated, so not driving empty for miles but only a short distance.

So what about people who want to walk on the street and hail a taxi, they're already covered.

Taxis are not private cars they are by definition SPSVs, Small Public Service Vehicles, perhaps you'd like all SPSVs to be minibuses and transport 1 or 2 passengers in a minibus?

And the bit you didn't answer, what do you do with your car when you get to B?

saabsaab

Sure what harm are they doing in the bus lane? If they weren't they would just add to the congestion.

Wishbone Ash

saabsaab wrote: »

Sure what harm are they doing in the bus lane? If they weren't they would just add to the congestion.

Presumably because they are congesting the bus lane.

Dick Turnip

saabsaab wrote: »

Sure what harm are they doing in the bus lane? If they weren't they would just add to the congestion.

Well they're adding to congestion in the bus lane, instead of the general traffic. You reduce the congestion for buses, they run better and more efficiently.

The goal is not necessarily to penalise taxis, it is to help buses. Dublin is one of the most congested cities in Europe. We need less people in cars and more on public transport where possible.

Dick Turnip

Dick Turnip wrote: »

Well they're adding to congestion in the bus lane, instead of the general traffic. You reduce the congestion for buses, they run better and more efficiently.

The goal is not necessarily to penalise taxis, it is to help buses. Dublin is one of the most congested cities in Europe. We need less people in cars and more on public transport where possible.

The bus is more likely to be slowing down the taxi than the other way around.

Wishbone Ash

Dick Turnip wrote: »

... We need less people in cars...

...or more people in cars rather than single occupancy.

Charles Babbage

Effects wrote: »

Majority of taxi drivers can't even figure out how to turn their light off when they have a fare. And now you want to complicate it even further.

Easy. Have an in use light connected to the meter. If the meter is running then the taxi can use the bus lane. If the meter is running then the taxi is earning and this is of interest to the revenue.

Dick Turnip

Spook_ie wrote: »

Taxis are not private cars they are by definition SPSVs, Small Public Service Vehicles, perhaps you'd like all SPSVs to be minibuses and transport 1 or 2 passengers in a minibus?

And the bit you didn't answer, what do you do with your car when you get to B?

The goal shouldn't be to get people from their own cars in to taxis, the goal should be to get them on to a bus/luas/tram.

Nobody is disputing that taxis aren't private cars but they they are in effect the same as a private car. They add to congestion as much as a car and more so, where there's a bus lane, they add to congestion of buses carrying multiples of the number of people in them.

Could someone could explain the logic behind why a taxi with one occupant should go in a bus lane while a solo driver can't?

Bus lanes were presumably introduced to facilitate getting as many people as possible about the city where space is at a premium. Surely taxis just negate that to a degree?

Dick Turnip

Deleted User wrote: »

The bus is more likely to be slowing down the taxi than the other way around.

Well I think we're getting tied up in semantics there :pac:

If there's a bus lane with one full bus and say 50 people on it, ahead of it in the lane is 5 taxis with 1 person in each. The bus misses a turn of lights because only 4 cars get through when it goes green. Those taxis are slowing the bus trip and adding time to the journey of 50 people. If 2 buses are held up. There's 100 people slowed by 3 or 4 in taxis. Multiply that across multiple junctions and it all adds up.

Dick Turnip

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

...or more people in cars rather than single occupancy.

Well buses will always be way more efficient than a full car of 4 or 5 anyway. Plus I would say it's easier to get people to switch to public transport rather than car pooling.

bigar

Spook_ie wrote: »

Because it's an SPSV not a private car

Time to change this: a taxi = private car hire ≠ public transport.
Therefore do not belong in a bus lane, ever.

Spook_ie

Dick Turnip wrote: »

The goal shouldn't be to get people from their own cars in to taxis, the goal should be to get them on to a bus/luas/tram.

Nobody is disputing that taxis aren't private cars but they they are in effect the same as a private car. They add to congestion as much as a car and more so, where there's a bus lane, they add to congestion of buses carrying multiples of the number of people in them.

Could someone could explain the logic behind why a taxi with one occupant should go in a bus lane while a solo driver can't?

Bus lanes were presumably introduced to facilitate getting as many people as possible about the city where space is at a premium. Surely taxis just negate that to a degree?

At the end of the day its to move people from private cars to public transport, taxis are public transport. Think of them as buses with 1 to 8 passengers that aren't limited to pick up and drop off at predetermined intervals and stops.

Because at journeys end the taxi doesn't require a parking space, its off to find another passenger(s) whether that be via Radio, App , Rank or Plying for hire.

Spook_ie

bigar wrote: »

Time to change this: a taxi = private car hire ≠ public transport.
Therefore do not belong in a bus lane, ever.

Time you realised a taxi is not a private car hire. As legislated for as an SPSV.

Dick Turnip

Dick Turnip wrote: »

Well I think we're getting tied up in semantics there :pac:

If there's a bus lane with one full bus and say 50 people on it, ahead of it in the lane is 5 taxis with 1 person in each. The bus misses a turn of lights because only 4 cars get through when it goes green. Those taxis are slowing the bus trip and adding time to the journey of 50 people. If 2 buses are held up. There's 100 people slowed by 3 or 4 in taxis. Multiply that across multiple junctions and it all adds up.

Sure, that's a couple of minutes that people have built into their journey time. If you travel on a bus you pay about 3 euro for the journey. If you travel in a taxi you pay about 1.35 per km plus a standing charge. Taxi's are a means to get somewhere, but you're going to pay a premium for it. That premium currently includes being able to be driven through bus lanes. Banning taxi's from bus lanes isn't going to ease congestion in any meaningful way that bus users will notice. It will just make getting a taxi more expensive and would mean getting to your destination takes more time.

But I haven't been on a bus in months since Covid, so maybe I'm forgetting all the times I was held up in a bus lane because of the 4 or 5 taxis that were somehow always getting in front of the bus I was on.

Spook_ie

Dick Turnip wrote: »

Well I think we're getting tied up in semantics there :pac:

If there's a bus lane with one full bus and say 50 people on it, ahead of it in the lane is 5 taxis with 1 person in each. The bus misses a turn of lights because only 4 cars get through when it goes green. Those taxis are slowing the bus trip and adding time to the journey of 50 people. If 2 buses are held up. There's 100 people slowed by 3 or 4 in taxis. Multiply that across multiple junctions and it all adds up.

Carefull now, you'll be straying dangerously close to having cyclists holding up buses next.

What holds buses up is actually (more often than not) other buses at bus stops.

Dick Turnip

Spook_ie wrote: »

Time you realised a taxi is not a private car hire. As legislated for as an SPSV.

You keep saying SPSV. Legally a taxi is a Small Public Service Vehicle, grand - that's not in dispute here.

I'm saying one person switching from their car to a taxi, does nothing for congestion on the streets, which is a major issue in Dublin. I think we can agree on that much?

Taxis shouldn't have the same privilege as buses, as they do nothing to help the congestion in the city.

Dravokivich

cgcsb wrote: »

If it were me, I'd just ban taxis from bus lanes between the hours of 7 and 7. The NTA are supposedly bringing in camera based enfocement for bus lanes anyway so that could be used to manage taxis also. With the roll out of 24hr buses the taxi industry looks like it's way to a greatly reduced business model. The bulk of taxi journeys are taken after midnight (pre covid).

I wouldn't be keen on this if they don't do a review of junctions that would require people to use a section of the bus lane. A lot of them have been repainted and made shorter. Particularly on the N4.

ED E wrote: »

Yeah except the NTA, Gardai and Dept of Justice are still scrapping about it.

We have red light cameras, they're turned off. #OnlyInIreland

#OnlyinIreland, except the issue of breaking a red light is contextual and a picture wouldn't present the context.

bigar wrote: »

Time to change this: a taxi = private car hire ≠ public transport.
Therefore do not belong in a bus lane, ever.

That's a very loose way to interpret it. Would be suggesting rented cars can use'em.

What's your view on Mini Buses and Coaches?

Spook_ie wrote: »

No they aren't, if you have a single person using their own car they have to secure and park it before returning to it and commencing a further journey, a taxi does away with the need to provide parking, thus allowing more road space to alleviate congestion.

We don't need on street parking in a city. Its a poor use of space and it's good that Dublin City Council have started reclaiming it. It's a shame it took the pandemic and an expectation there'd be less need for on street parking, to be the driver for it.

Dick Turnip

Deleted User wrote: »

Banning taxi's from bus lanes isn't going to ease congestion in any meaningful way that bus users will notice. It will just make getting a taxi more expensive and would mean getting to your destination takes more time.

Have you seen the number of taxis in Dublin? You take those all out of the bus lane and you're think it won't have any effect on buses?

It will mean your taxi journey is slower, but it will also mean many people's bus journeys are quicker. Which is the better overall?

Deleted User wrote: »

But I haven't been on a bus in months since Covid, so maybe I'm forgetting all the times I was held up in a bus lane because of the 4 or 5 taxis that were somehow always getting in front of the bus I was on.

Come on now, I gave one simple example of how in theory taxis can hold up/delay a bus at one junction, because some posters were saying taxis do no harm in the bus lane. I think you're being deliberately obtuse there.