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Why not pay the student nurses?!

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24567…15

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    #32
    Jim Gazebo
    Registered Users Posts: 2,355 ✭✭✭Jim Gazebo


    I do not know why anyone is surprised. Micheal sold his soul to be taoiseach. There are no boundaries to how low that snake will go.

    Final nails are going in the coffin and they are leaving the door wide open for sinn Fein with these decisions.


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    #33
    Jim Gazebo
    Registered Users Posts: 2,355 ✭✭✭Jim Gazebo


    Atlantic Dawn wrote: »
    And if they feck off to Austalia or Dubai the week after circa €50k has been invested training them we can all celebrate :rolleyes:. Far too many nurses being trained in this country for what we actually need. If they are not working within the Irish health sector after 5 years and have left the country they should have to pay it back.

    I would agree. I work in a different industry but similar you have to do training. Many companies pick people up in college, pay fees etc, but if you don't work for the company at the end for a period of say 1 year, 2 years they can look for it back. That's fair.


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    #34
    Padre_Pio
    Registered Users Posts: 5,073 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    BailMeOut wrote: »
    They are students learning their trade. For every profession you have students doing internships while studying which has always been part of the education process. I certainly did a lot of unpaid work as a student back in my day which was an invaluable way to gain experience and stood me well as a stepping stone for my first proper jobs.

    I don't agree with this though.
    If you have a skill that's in demand then you should be paid for work.

    The notion of "unpaid internship" for experience and exposure to the working world is b*llocks IMO.

    Most companies pay interns.
    Apprenticeships are paid.

    It's a disgrace that student nurses are not paid, especially this year.


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    #35
    Padre_Pio
    Registered Users Posts: 5,073 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    Atlantic Dawn wrote: »
    And if they feck off to Austalia or Dubai the week after circa €50k has been invested training them we can all celebrate :rolleyes:. Far too many nurses being trained in this country for what we actually need. If they are not working within the Irish health sector after 5 years and have left the country they should have to pay it back.

    Another b*llocks statement.

    Ireland is competing with every other western country for healthcare workers. If some other country has better wages and conditions for any profession then how can you blame people for going for it?

    The HSE is a disgrace. Between the abysmal pay, understaffing, long hours, stress and weekly scandals, I'm not surprised HCPs are leaving the country.
    If Ireland stopped nurses and doctors emigrating we'd have no Irish doctors and nurses. Who would go to college and graduate only to be shackled to this country for five years?

    Madness.

    EDIT The HSE ran a campaign to bring home Irish nurses from abroad. Promised them decent money and relocation bonuses. It was a complete failure as most nurses abroad know they have it better than they would get in Ireland.

    The HSE also scrambled to pull student nurses out of college in March and gave them the same responsibilities as staff nurses, and didn't even pay them.


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    #36
    Atlantic Dawn
    Registered Users Posts: 81,988 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn
    M


    Padre_Pio wrote: »
    Another b*llocks statement.

    Ireland is competing with every other western country for healthcare workers. If some other country has better wages and conditions for any profession then how can you blame people for going for it?

    The HSE is a disgrace. Between the abysmal pay, understaffing, long hours, stress and weekly scandals, I'm not surprised HCPs are leaving the country.
    If Ireland stopped nurses and doctors emigrating we'd have no Irish doctors and nurses. Who would go to college and graduate only to be shackled to this country for five years?

    Madness.


    Time we ended educating more nurses for free than we need, madness.


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    #37
    crazy 88
    Registered Users Posts: 2,326 ✭✭✭crazy 88


    I did placement while I was doing an engineering degree and got paid. It was minimum wage but it was still a wage. I've assumed up to now that anyone who works (whether it's training or not) gets paid. At the end of the day you're working and adding value to your employer and should be compensated for it.


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    #38
    Padre_Pio
    Registered Users Posts: 5,073 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    Atlantic Dawn wrote: »
    Time we ended educating more nurses for free than we need, madness.

    There's a chronic shortage of nurses in Ireland, the UK, the US, France, everywhere really. Why do you think there's so many African and Asian HCPs in Irish hospitals?

    Where are you getting this oversupply of nurses from?


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    #39
    Cora Spicy Oceanographer
    Posts: 0 ✭ Cora Spicy Oceanographer


    Padre_Pio wrote: »
    .

    Two excellent posts.


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    #40
    smellyoldboot
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,075 ✭✭✭smellyoldboot


    BailMeOut wrote: »
    They are students learning their trade. For every profession you have students doing internships while studying which has always been part of the education process. I certainly did a lot of unpaid work as a student back in my day which was an invaluable way to gain experience and stood me well as a stepping stone for my first proper jobs.

    Nonsense arguement tbh. We pay apprentices in all other fields while they train. I did an internship as part of my degree and every one of us in the course got paid at least min wage for our time spent doing it. And it was nice cushy design engineering in an office, not frontline healthcare during a pandemic.

    They're not paid simply because the state wastes so much bloody money on a health system that should have been seriously culled of waste 30 years ago that they take the easy option and cut corners where they can.

    Anybody giving up their time to do work should be paid for it. Simple as. Unpaid "internships" should be outright criminalised in a decent society.


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    #41
    Suckit
    Registered Users Posts: 11,215 ✭✭✭✭Suckit


    Atlantic Dawn wrote: »
    And if they feck off to Austalia or Dubai the week after circa €50k has been invested training them we can all celebrate :rolleyes:. Far too many nurses being trained in this country for what we actually need. If they are not working within the Irish health sector after 5 years and have left the country they should have to pay it back.
    But that is part of the problem. Unattractive salaries here etc, with the cost of living. It's not like they are sponging either, they are physically working.
    Plenty of other professionals leave the country to get a better salary.

    The debate is currently not to pay the student nurses forever, it is to pay the nurses that have worked their backends off during the pandemic, and I'm also willing to bet that the majority of the public would be in favour of them getting paid, and probably against the amount of 'small incremental' pay rises the government have awarded themselves this year.

    Daft decision and timing to declare they wouldn't be getting paid.


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    #42
    uptherebels
    Registered Users Posts: 1,588 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    ted1 wrote: »
    They are not qualified doing placements same as other college students who do placements

    It could also prove to be very costly to the state. And also have issue with pensions etc. If you start counting the college years can nurses retire several years earlier.

    It’s easy to shout widen the sideline when you don’t have to balance the books

    When people start nursing they know what the course entails. To complain after you accepted the conditions is wrong.

    When I did my engineering placement, companies were not allowed to offer places to students if they were unpaid positions. And guess what happened......the 80+ in my year all had paid placements


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    #43
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,280 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Padre_Pio wrote: »
    The HSE is a disgrace. Between the abysmal pay, understaffing, long hours, stress and weekly scandals, I'm not surprised HCPs are leaving the country.
    If Ireland stopped nurses and doctors emigrating we'd have no Irish doctors and nurses. Who would go to college and graduate only to be shackled to this country for five years?
    .

    Please note that we pay nurses significantly more than the UK.

    Please note that hiring and staff numbers have risen strongly recently.

    We have hired hundreds of extra HSE staff.

    https://www.hse.ie/eng/staff/resources/our-workforce/workforce-reporting/health-service-employment-report-oct-2020.pdf

    The HSE has added 5,187 staff in the past year.

    Of these, 1,610 are nursing staff.

    We have added 1,610 nursing staff in a year.


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    #44
    Padre_Pio
    Registered Users Posts: 5,073 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    uptherebels wrote: »
    When I did my engineering placement, companies were not allowed to offer places to students if they were unpaid positions. And guess what happened......the 80+ in my year all had paid placements

    My place takes on about 10 interns a year. All are paid a decent wage.
    I couldn't stand the thought of working beside someone who was forced to do it for free.


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    #45
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,280 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Suckit wrote: »
    But that is part of the problem. Unattractive salaries here etc, with the cost of living. It's not like they are sponging either, they are physically working.
    Plenty of other professionals leave the country to get a better salary.


    We have some of the highest wages in the EU.


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    #46
    Atlantic Dawn
    Registered Users Posts: 81,988 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn
    M


    Suckit wrote: »
    But that is part of the problem. Unattractive salaries here etc, with the cost of living. It's not like they are sponging either, they are physically working.
    Plenty of other professionals leave the country to get a better salary.

    The debate is currently not to pay the student nurses forever, it is to pay the nurses that have worked their backends off during the pandemic, and I'm also willing to bet that the majority of the public would be in favour of them getting paid, and probably against the amount of 'small incremental' pay rises the government have awarded themselves this year.

    Daft decision and timing to declare they wouldn't be getting paid.


    Should we start training pilots at 3rd level and have them all leave the country to work for Ethiad/Emirates the next week after they qualify?


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    #47
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,280 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Should H.Dip / PME students be paid as they train to teach?


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    #48
    Suckit
    Registered Users Posts: 11,215 ✭✭✭✭Suckit


    Geuze wrote: »
    We have some of the highest wages in the EU.
    We have some of the highest rents and general cost of living in the EU.


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    #49
    Suckit
    Registered Users Posts: 11,215 ✭✭✭✭Suckit


    Atlantic Dawn wrote: »
    Should we start training pilots at 3rd level and have them all leave the country to work for Ethiad/Emirates the next week after they qualify?
    Tell me how that is comparable to what I said.


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    #50
    Padre_Pio
    Registered Users Posts: 5,073 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    Geuze wrote: »
    Please note that we pay nurses significantly more than the UK.
    Please note that hiring and staff numbers have risen strongly recently.
    We have hired hundreds of extra HSE staff.

    https://www.hse.ie/eng/staff/resources/our-workforce/workforce-reporting/health-service-employment-report-oct-2020.pdf

    The HSE has added 5,187 staff in the past year.

    Of these, 1,610 are nursing staff.

    We have added 1,610 nursing staff in a year.

    Please note, comparing average nurses wages from country to country is apples to oranges.
    There's no real equivalency between grades, responsibilities, overtime, allowances ect.
    It's been covered many times on boards.ie and nurses have posted scans of payslips showing deductions for all sorts of nonsense.

    Second point, we're in a pandemic. OF COURSE the HSE has hired nurses this year, literally everyone they could get.


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    #51
    Padre_Pio
    Registered Users Posts: 5,073 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    Atlantic Dawn wrote: »
    Should we start training pilots at 3rd level and have them all leave the country to work for Ethiad/Emirates the next week after they qualify?

    Do "we" train pilots now?

    Don't remember that course in my Qualifax handbook :pac:
    Geuze wrote: »
    Should H.Dip / PME students be paid as they train to teach?

    Do you think the people teaching your children should be paid or unpaid?


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    #52
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,280 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Padre_Pio wrote: »
    P
    It's been covered many times on boards.ie and nurses have posted scans of payslips showing deductions for all sorts of nonsense.

    Tax/USC
    PRSI
    Pension / PRD / ASC

    How are these nonsense?


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    #53
    CatFromHue
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,150 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    political analyst wrote: »
    The motion called for the immediate reinstatement of the payment of student nurses and midwives who are in placements during the Covid-19 pandemic, among other measures.

    So why did the government parties vote against the motion?

    Anyone know what these other measures are?

    Sounds like they might be important.


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    #54
    Jim Gazebo
    Registered Users Posts: 2,355 ✭✭✭Jim Gazebo


    Padre_Pio wrote: »
    Do "we" train pilots now?

    Don't remember that course in my Qualifax handbook :pac:



    Do you think the people teaching your children should be paid or unpaid?

    You can learn to be a pilot in Ireland yes.........

    What is your argument? Everyone agrees they should be paid when working / training in the hospital setting.


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    #55
    Smacruairi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    Atlantic Dawn wrote: »
    Should we start training pilots at 3rd level and have them all leave the country to work for Ethiad/Emirates the next week after they qualify?

    Friend of mine was trained as a pilot, paid all the way through it. They saw it as an investment.


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    #56
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,280 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Padre_Pio wrote: »
    Do you think the people teaching your children should be paid or unpaid?

    They are students, not employees, so there is no wage involved.

    They are not on the payroll of the DES.

    A PME student is a student, not an employee.


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    #57
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,458 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    mickdw wrote: »
    The fact the the nurses were this year placed into unforeseen covid situation, doing front line work and then being banned from taking on other work due to the nature of the unpaid work, i feel its criminal not to pay them.

    They should have received the PUP payment for their paying job


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    #58
    Strumms
    Registered Users Posts: 25,093 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    Padre_Pio wrote: »
    Another b*llocks statement.

    Ireland is competing with every other western country for healthcare workers. If some other country has better wages and conditions for any profession then how can you blame people for going for it?

    The HSE is a disgrace. Between the abysmal pay, understaffing, long hours, stress and weekly scandals, I'm not surprised HCPs are leaving the country.
    If Ireland stopped nurses and doctors emigrating we'd have no Irish doctors and nurses. Who would go to college and graduate only to be shackled to this country for five years?

    Madness.

    Let’s do a private company comparison.

    Me and you Padre, we set up an airline,, we spend a lot of money, hiring, providing type rated training, for pilots and on other sundries such as uniforms etc...about 10,000 a head.. after a couple of months John or Marie gets a better offer at British Airways, fûcks off there with the type rating and all that money is goodbye... happening all too often.. so the industry to protect their investment... tens of thousands of euros... ‘bond’ the new hires in their contracts...

    the purpose of the bond is for the employer to protect their investment. In this case, the Irish state and taxpayers being protected...The normal process is that the employer will ‘pay’ for the employee’s training. The employee will be bonded for a period of 2 – 3 years to work here FOR and IN the HSE..with their liability for the amount reducing over that time. At the expiration of that period, the employee has no further financial liability. But if you want to leave after two years, you are legally responsible for repaying one third of your training costs. You are buying out the remainder of that bond... medical training is seriously expensive, paid for by taxpayers exclusively. Taxpayers need a return on that investment...


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    #59
    purifol0
    Registered Users Posts: 868 ✭✭✭purifol0


    And yet the average salary of a nurse is north of 58K! You can bet it will be higher this year.

    HSE needs to come clean about how many nurses it actually needs, so we can hire that amount and quit paying huge amounts to train Dubai & Australia's.

    According to the INMO & RTE we need an infinite number of them (the fact that each nurse hired is making the INMO richer is never factored into to their calculations).

    Oh and the govt should make health care staff striking illegal - same as for Gardai. They are an emergency service after all, and their pay has been agreed by their union. Threatening to walk off the job before they're even qualified...FFS


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    #60
    Jim Gazebo
    Registered Users Posts: 2,355 ✭✭✭Jim Gazebo


    Geuze wrote: »
    They are students, not employees, so there is no wage involved.

    They are not on the payroll of the DES.

    A PME student is a student, not an employee.

    It does not mean that they cannot be paid. Training in a work setting is still working whatever way you want to look at it.


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    #61
    Smacruairi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    purifol0 wrote: »
    And yet the average salary of a nurse is north of 58K! You can bet it will be higher this year.

    HSE needs to come clean about how many nurses it actually needs, so we can hire that amount and quit paying huge amounts to train Dubai & Australia's.

    According to the INMO & RTE we need an infinite number of them (the fact that each nurse hired is making the INMO richer is never factored into to their calculations).

    Oh and the govt should make health care staff striking illegal - same as for Gardai. They are an emergency service after all, and their pay has been agreed by their union. Threatening to walk off the job before they're even qualified...FFS

    You know the reason we have pay deals is to keep costs lower, otherwise you have hospitals out bidding each other for staff which are scarce which is then passed on to you the insurance payer or tax payer?


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