Why not pay the student nurses?!

political analyst

https://www.thejournal.ie/motion-to-pay-student-nurses-5287097-Dec2020/

The Solidarity-People Before Profit (PBP) motion was defeated by 77 votes to 72.

Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and the Green Party all voted against the motion, while opposition parties and groups supported it.

The motion called for the immediate reinstatement of the payment of student nurses and midwives who are in placements during the Covid-19 pandemic, among other measures.

The Tánaiste responded: “The matter is being considered. A full review of student allowances is under way. It should be ready in September 2021.”

Morally, it's right to pay the student nurses, given the hard work they've done - and are still doing - during the pandemic.

So why did the government parties vote against the motion?

It's as if the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste are gluttons for punishment - they seem ignorant of the increasing likelihood of a far-left coalition forming a government after the next general election.

BailMeOut

They are students learning their trade. For every profession you have students doing internships while studying which has always been part of the education process. I certainly did a lot of unpaid work as a student back in my day which was an invaluable way to gain experience and stood me well as a stepping stone for my first proper jobs.

KaneToad

Why not pay the student teachers?
Why not pay medical students?

Because they are being trained.

I do think, however, nursing students who were forbidden from working other part time jobs during Covid should receive some compensation.

jlm29

BailMeOut wrote: »

They are students learning their trade. For every profession you have students doing internships while studying which has always been part of the education process. I certainly did a lot of unpaid work as a student back in my day which was an invaluable way to gain experience and stood me well as a stepping stone for my first proper jobs.

I’d agree totally with this. There’s other healthcare students all over the country not getting paid, and nobody has any issue with that.

duffman13

political analyst wrote: »

they seem ignorant of the increasing likelihood of a far-left coalition forming a government after the next general election.

Cannot see that happening tbh, PBP etc are happy to shout the odds from the side and various smaller groups fracture off etc.

However on the point of student nurses, unprecedented work this year, id pay them. The problem is once you do something once, its expected and the unions (teachers, nurses etc) will be all over it

ted1

They are not qualified doing placements same as other college students who do placements

It could also prove to be very costly to the state. And also have issue with pensions etc. If you start counting the college years can nurses retire several years earlier.

It’s easy to shout widen the sideline when you don’t have to balance the books

When people start nursing they know what the course entails. To complain after you accepted the conditions is wrong.

weisses

BailMeOut wrote: »

They are students learning their trade. For every profession you have students doing internships while studying which has always been part of the education process. I certainly did a lot of unpaid work as a student back in my day which was an invaluable way to gain experience and stood me well as a stepping stone for my first proper jobs.

Are internships generally not payed positions in Ireland ?

Gatling

And if they gave into this every other student on placements will need to paid or have claims for back dated pay ,then the qualified nurses will need pay rises because it won't be fair that trainees on placements getting the same pay ,
There would be knock on effects across multiple sectors

political analyst

ted1 wrote: »

They are not qualified doing placements same as other college students who do placements

It could also prove to be very costly to the state. And also have issue with pensions etc. If you start counting the college years can nurses retire several years earlier.

It’s easy to shout widen the sideline when you don’t have to balance the books

When people start nursing they know what the course entails. To complain after you accepted the conditions is wrong.

Those are fair points.

To be honest, I think it's misleading to refer to them as 'student nurses' because that gives the impression they're already qualified and are learning the job as they go along. They should be referred to as 'nursing students'. Furthermore, people training to be teachers should be referred to as 'teaching students'.

mickdw

The fact the the nurses were this year placed into unforeseen covid situation, doing front line work and then being banned from taking on other work due to the nature of the unpaid work, i feel its criminal not to pay them.

political analyst

duffman13 wrote: »

Cannot see that happening tbh, PBP etc are happy to shout the odds from the side and various smaller groups fracture off etc.

However on the point of student nurses, unprecedented work this year, id pay them. The problem is once you do something once, its expected and the unions (teachers, nurses etc) will be all over it

I hope you're right.

ChikiChiki

They need to be paid proper for the Covid work. These are exceptional circumstances outside the norm where they have been called to service.

And btw, it won't set a precedent or a need to backdate pay to pre Covid. Whatever deal is in place just needs the caveat of being applied to the ongoing Covid situation.

It's ludicrous not to.

radiotrickster

I think student nurses should be paid. A lot of students help keep wards running when they’re short-staffed. The shifts are long, the work is tiring and they can’t work a second job while doing it.

But likewise, I think unpaid labour should be illegal and internships should be paid minimum wage at least, not expenses. The list of skills needed for some internships can be so long that you’d wonder if they had anything left to teach the people they take on.

un5byh7sqpd2x0

weisses wrote: »

Are internships generally not payed positions in Ireland ?

Not all. The student nurses are paid an allowance as far as I’m aware, obviously not enough for them.

When I was a trainee I wasn't paid. Why would some?

Suckit

Deleted User wrote: »

When I was a trainee I wasn't paid. Why would some?

Were you able to get a part time job?

Weepsie

While I agree that given the current pandemic, student nurses and doctors etc should get some form of compensation, and it's something that should be addresses, PBP through a few other complete nonsense things in with this motion too that just make no sense to pass.

They got their picture of the voting board so people can froth at the mouth though, and that's all that matters.

Notmything

I've no problem with paying nurses while working during the pandemic. But what about other jobs where you do a placement unpaid.

I'm a social care worker, to qualify you need 800 hours unpaid placement work. I know students who work part-time to pay for college and then have to work a second job as it's a requirement for the course. Why should student scw not be paid.

Morrisp

Suckit wrote: »

Were you able to get a part time job?

Rather selfish view on things.

ChikiChiki

Some of the logic here defies common sense.

Healthcare workers are in the highest risk category of cantracting Covid. Who steps up to the plate when a whole unit has to be stood down to go into self isolation?

Thats right - student nurses in some instances.

Just because some havn't been paid as part of their traineeships doesn't apply to nurses in a pandemic who cannot work part time and are effectively on standby.

Social care worker is not equivalent right now. Completely different contexts and scenarios.

Suckit

Morrisp wrote: »

Rather selfish view on things.

How is that selfish?
Currently student nurses are not allowed to take on any part time work at the risk of cross infection.
In the past, that has been pretty much a major contributor in helping subsidise their rent or general cost of living.

ChikiChiki

[Deleted User] wrote: »

When I was a trainee I wasn't paid. Why would some?

Extremely petty. Different contexts and scenarios unless you did your traineeship on the front line in a pandemic without part time work?

sammyjo90

Student nurses are often counted on as rostered staff members on days where wards do not have enough staff. These are students. They not fully trained nurses.
Most of the time they are not given the time to be trained/shadow the person allocated to them to do so.
If they are essentially taking the place of a fully qualified nurse why shouldnt they be paid. They are doing the same work when they should be learning. Not being thrown in to full time work and not getting paid for it.
They should be paid full stop. Not just for this period of covid.
Being thrown in at the deep end in the middle of a hospital trying to "learn on the Job" is a far cry from a mechanics or IT internship. No ones health is at stake.

Mr_Muffin

I hope the government pay or give the nurses whatever they ask for to make them happy. It's like a broken record at this stage.

doc22

sammyjo90 wrote: »

Student nurses are often counted on as rostered staff members on days where wards do not have enough staff. These are students. They not fully trained nurses.
Most of the time they are not given the time to be trained/shadow the person allocated to them to do so.
If they are essentially taking the place of a fully qualified nurse why shouldnt they be paid. They are doing the same work when they should be learning. Not being thrown in to full time work and not getting paid for it.
They should be paid full stop. Not just for this period of covid.
Being thrown in at the deep end in the middle of a hospital trying to "learn on the Job" is a far cry from a mechanics or IT internship. No ones health is at stake.

Are you on about student nurses in their final year PAID placement or the few weeks they do in other years?(which they also want paid now)

Ireland2020

There will be a U Turn during the week and they will be paid

Yet another mistake by the Govt

Have they went 2 weeks without causing some sort of scandal since FF and FG jumped into bed

Sarcozies

I think you'd get resounding support for paying more to nurses and medical personnel in general if the tremendous bloat was removed from the extremely inefficient HSE.

How is it that we spend more on healthcare per inhabitant than the UK with its NHS?

Exploitation.

We have this absurd capitalist mindset that people are entitled to your free labour and that you should be grateful for the experience. A load of blarney.

Student nurses aren't some interns in an office being sent to fetch coffees. They are doing the work of fully qualified nurses.

Smacruairi

If the student nurse is shadowing someone, learning, able to ask questions, improve, upskill, then no, it's part of placement.

However, this clearly isn't the case.they are just doing the menial nursing tasks that the normal roster don't have time to do because they are understaffed owing to covid illness etc. They are not up skilling, nor are they learning, they are just plugging holes.therefore, pay them for that.

Anyone saying "oh I didn't get to get paid when I was an intern" I guarantee they didn't just have you photocopy for 11 weeks - you were in meetings listening, or working with small clients, maybe getting feedback on your projects etc. These nurses are taken advantage of to do tedious tasks, that is not learning,and thus should be compensated at the appropriate (probably very low) rate.

Ireland2020

Sarcozies wrote: »

I think you'd get resounding support for paying more to nurses and medical personnel in general if the tremendous bloat was removed from the extremely inefficient HSE.

How is it that we spend more on healthcare per inhabitant than the UK with its NHS?

Simom Harris wanted them to face financial penalties for trying to get paid properly last year

March said all student nurses will be paid for the Duration of Covid

Tweets all during Covid about the great work they are doing

3rd Dec Votes against paying student nurses

This is the same man who caused the last Govt to collapse and has been giving another Ministerial role

It's some country

Atlantic Dawn

Mr_Muffin wrote: »

I hope the government pay or give the nurses whatever they ask for to make them happy. It's like a broken record at this stage.

And if they feck off to Austalia or Dubai the week after circa €50k has been invested training them we can all celebrate :rolleyes:. Far too many nurses being trained in this country for what we actually need. If they are not working within the Irish health sector after 5 years and have left the country they should have to pay it back.