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Why not pay the student nurses?!

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    #422
    GarIT
    Registered Users Posts: 8,671 ✭✭✭GarIT


    Generally students/interns cost more than they generate in terms of work.


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    #423
    thomasdylan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 514 ✭✭✭thomasdylan


    GarIT wrote: »
    Generally students/interns cost more than they generate in terms of work.

    This isn't true for the health service.


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    #424
    CatFromHue
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,150 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    Geuze wrote: »

    Then, nurses argued to make it a "profession", to move the education into university, to switch from being apprentice trainees, to being students.

    They wanted to not be paid.

    So during the placements in years 1, 2, 3, they are not paid.


    Now, it seems, they are asking for the opposite?

    .

    The union didn't generate this debate, nor did the colleges.

    It's all come from a PBP motion that included piles of stuff which had nothing to do with nurses pay during the pandemic.


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    #425
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,451 ✭✭✭weisses


    Geuze wrote: »
    Years ago, training to be a nurse was outside of uni, it was an apprenticeship.

    Then, nurses argued to make it a "profession", to move the education into university, to switch from being apprentice trainees, to being students.

    They wanted to not be paid.

    So during the placements in years 1, 2, 3, they are not paid.


    Now, it seems, they are asking for the opposite?.

    No ... A re assessment of the 16 year old a agreement re placement compensation accelerated by the covid pandemic. .. This is not the student nurses wanted to be paid for hours spend learning on placement, it's mainly about compensation for housing during placement etc,etc ... I spend about 1000 euro a month on placement and get 200 compensation. There are more aspects at play here.. Plenty of anecdotal evidence of student nurses being exploited during covid.


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    #426
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,451 ✭✭✭weisses


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    The union didn't generate this debate, nor did the colleges.

    It's all come from a PBP motion that included piles of stuff which had nothing to do with nurses pay during the pandemic.

    Yup, they made this political to serve their own interest ... Another stick to beat the government with


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    #427
    Padre_Pio
    Registered Users Posts: 5,073 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    Geuze wrote: »
    Average earnings for full-time workers in 2019 is 48,946.

    https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/elca/earningsandlabourcostsannualdata2019/


    I well believe that many nurses are on 50k-55k, yes.

    I do not accept that the average nurse is on 50% above the 48k average earnings, i.e. 72k.

    Average nurse is university educated, with postgrad qualifications, working in a highly sought after field.

    Don't know why people compare "average" wages?


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    #428
    Meeoow
    Registered Users Posts: 624 ✭✭✭Meeoow


    weisses wrote: »
    No ... A re assessment of the 16 year old a agreement re placement compensation accelerated by the covid pandemic. .. This is not the student nurses wanted to be paid for hours spend learning on placement, it's mainly about compensation for housing during placement etc,etc ... I spend about 1000 euro a month on placement and get 200 compensation. There are more aspects at play here.. Plenty of anecdotal evidence of student nurses being exploited during covid.

    Are they getting their grant or btea on top of that? Not too bad.


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    #429
    khalessi
    Registered Users Posts: 6,215 ✭✭✭khalessi


    Geuze wrote: »
    Years ago, training to be a nurse was outside of uni, it was an apprenticeship.
    Then, nurses argued to make it a "profession", to move the education into

    Speaking as one of those nurses, it was always a profession was never described as an apprenticeship.

    However university status was requested and despite the fact the students still do the same amount of hours, the pay was removed. THey should be paid. They are not treted like med students who come on the wards in 3rd and 4th year to observe ask questions and learn, therefore pay them or make them proper observational students.


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    #430
    Padre_Pio
    Registered Users Posts: 5,073 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    Meeoow wrote: »
    Are they getting their grant or btea on top of that? Not too bad.

    You get the grant or BTEA if you are entitled to it.


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    #431
    the14thwarrior
    Registered Users Posts: 397 ✭✭the14thwarrior


    almost every medical profession i can think of does placements without pay.

    like nurses, they learn on the job, they take on clients, they take on patients.
    they are not employees, they are students. they do almost the same work as they would when they qualify, especially in their last year. and don't get paid a penny

    if you look at the details of the proposals, its too much money to pay all the students........ every physio, OT, SLT, radiographer, Social worker, music, art therapist, nurse, OTA, PTA, etc. etc. look at the CORU website, 15 professions in all. mostly placements every year, for four years........ thats a lot of money to pay all sorts of students......... and most of these do not get grants or bursarys.......

    they got paid during the pandemic, and i think no one would begrudge them.
    but time to get off the gravy train......


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    #432
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,451 ✭✭✭weisses


    the14thwarrior wrote: »
    almost every medical profession i can think of does placements without pay.

    like nurses, they learn on the job, they take on clients, they take on patients.
    they are not employees, they are students. they do almost the same work as they would when they qualify, especially in their last year. and don't get paid a penny

    if you look at the details of the proposals, its too much money to pay all the students........ every physio, OT, SLT, radiographer, Social worker, music, art therapist, nurse, OTA, PTA, etc. etc. look at the CORU website, 15 professions in all. mostly placements every year, for four years........ thats a lot of money to pay all sorts of students......... and most of these do not get grants or bursarys.......

    they got paid during the pandemic, and i think no one would begrudge them.
    but time to get off the gravy train......

    What are the details of the proposals ?


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    #433
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,280 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    overtime needs to be added

    the average income is not 48 k per annum so your frame of reference is off

    I did not mention incomes.

    I said average earnings are 48,946 in 2019, according to the CSO.

    This is the mean, not the median.

    I suggested that average nurse earnings are not 50% above that.

    I don't think average nurse earnings are 72k.


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    #434
    salonfire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    Padre_Pio wrote: »
    Average nurse is university educated, with postgrad qualifications, working in a highly sought after field.

    Don't know why people compare "average" wages?

    Great. So you agree nurses are highly paid which is what those people like me who don't do teary eyed and cap doffing to nurses have been saying all along.

    That's what comes after average. High.

    Low, average, high. Primary school logic.

    Glad you agree.


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    #435
    Padre_Pio
    Registered Users Posts: 5,073 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    salonfire wrote: »
    Great. So you agree nurses are highly paid which is what those people like me who don't do teary eyed and cap doffing to nurses have been saying all along.

    That's what comes after average. High.

    Low, average, high. Primary school logic.

    Glad you agree.

    Sure... :rolleyes::rolleyes:
    Shelf stackers are low paid compared to average wages. Should they be given pay rises to the average wage?

    People are paid based on what they're worth. Not what the "average" wage is, which is an arbitrary figure.
    People basing any wages on the average wage are idiots.


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    #436
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,451 ✭✭✭weisses


    salonfire wrote: »
    Great. So you agree nurses are highly paid which is what those people like me who don't do teary eyed and cap doffing to nurses have been saying all along.

    That's what comes after average. High.

    Low, average, high. Primary school logic.

    Glad you agree.

    Indeed primary school logic if you think a nurses salary is high .... Try again


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    #437
    salonfire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    weisses wrote: »
    Indeed primary school logic if you think a nurses salary is high .... Try again

    It is higher than the average salary. How else would you describe it? Ask an primary school student, they'll be able to explain to you what comes after average.


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    #438
    Padre_Pio
    Registered Users Posts: 5,073 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    salonfire wrote: »
    It is higher than the average salary. How else would you describe it? Ask an primary school student, they'll be able to explain to you what comes after average.

    I'll ask again:
    What does average salary have to do with anything?
    Why is average salary a metric for a specific job?
    So what if someone gets paid an above average salary?

    People should be paid their market rate and it's clear that, since Ireland has serious trouble hiring nurses, our rate is set too low.


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    #439
    Gorteen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,008 ✭✭✭Gorteen


    Padre_Pio wrote: »
    People should be paid their market rate and it's clear that, since Ireland has serious trouble hiring nurses, our rate is set too low.

    This is an argument to pay qualified nurses more..... not student nurses


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    #440
    khalessi
    Registered Users Posts: 6,215 ✭✭✭khalessi


    Gorteen wrote: »
    This is an argument to pay qualified nurses more..... not student nurses

    It is an argument to pay people their worth if they do an honest days work, which they are. IF student nurses were treated like med students, someone else would be paid a proper wage to replace them on the wards.


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    #441
    salonfire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    Padre_Pio wrote: »
    I'll ask again:
    What does average salary have to do with anything?
    Why is average salary a metric for a specific job?
    So what if someone gets paid an above average salary?

    I am not saying to pay nurses lower salaries to the average wage. I am countering the bare-faced lies spun by unions and posters on this site that nurses are low or badly paid when the opposite is true. It's about time more people stood up to the spin and propaganda lies and highlighted the fact that nurses are in fact highly paid - above average - for the vast majority of their careers.

    Don't forget, salaries aren't the full picture either. Nurses get various allowances including double time for working a Sunday. Work for 12 hours, get paid for 24.

    khalessi wrote: »
    It is an argument to pay people their worth if they do an honest days work, which they are.

    You're a liar. Fourth year nursing students are paid and have been paid all along. Any other student tasked to help out in the initial surge were paid as HCAs.


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