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Why not pay the student nurses?!

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    #392
    Caquas
    Registered Users Posts: 1,365 ✭✭✭Caquas


    weisses wrote: »
    Nursing home I worked in had 2 Nurses and 6 HCA's looking after 40 people ... The quality of care was mostly depending on the HCA's, with nurses looking after the medication and some of the more complex care.




    What do you mean by supervising in this context ?

    I hope they had more than 2 nurses in the nursing home where 24 patients died.:mad:

    Maryanne in post 838 answered my question about sending the student nurses into the nursing home by saying they would be supervised. I'm asking how many qualified nurses were in that nursing home to supervise student nurses during the outbreak of COVID-19?


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    #393
    Sardonicat
    Registered Users Posts: 12,387 ✭✭✭✭Sardonicat


    Caquas wrote: »
    I hope they had more than 2 nurses in the nursing home where 24 patients died.:mad:

    Many only ever have one nurse on duty during night shift. A student nurse who has completed one round of placement would know and be as qualified as any HCA to carry out the basic tasks if hygiene, feeding toileting with the correct infection control procedure so wouldn't require anymore supervision than a HCA. That us the role they would be performing in the nursing homes.


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    #394
    cms88
    Registered Users Posts: 1,584 ✭✭✭cms88


    jlm29 wrote: »
    I’d agree totally with this. There’s other healthcare students all over the country not getting paid, and nobody has any issue with that.

    Because there are few more self entitled than nurses. The self proclaimed ''heros'' of the health service.

    Many of them feel they're far better than everyone else so should be entitled to it, because if you are to believe what some of them say no one else ever went to college only them!


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    #395
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,451 ✭✭✭weisses


    cms88 wrote: »
    Because there are few more self entitled than nurses. The self proclaimed ''heros'' of the health service.

    Many of them feel they're far better than everyone else so should be entitled to it, because if you are to believe what some of them say no one else ever went to college only them!

    Nurses ...Teachers .... any more groups you have issues with ? ... Just get it out don't let the anger built, Its unhealthy and before you know it you have to deal with those pesky nurses again


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    #396
    cms88
    Registered Users Posts: 1,584 ✭✭✭cms88


    weisses wrote: »
    Nurses ...Teachers .... any more groups you have issues with ? ... Just get it out don't let the anger built, Its unhealthy and before you know it you have to deal with those pesky nurses again

    Both knew what the job was when they signed up yet still complain about it.

    As for dealing with ''those pesky nurses again'' i'd be far more likely to be dealing with a health care assistant as the nurses would be far too buy on their phones....


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    #397
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,451 ✭✭✭weisses


    cms88 wrote: »
    Both knew what the job was when they signed up yet still complain about it.

    As for dealing with ''those pesky nurses again'' i'd be far more likely to be dealing with a health care assistant as the nurses would be far too buy on their phones....

    I get it you didn't spend much time in a Hospital then ?


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    #398
    Padre_Pio
    Registered Users Posts: 5,073 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    cms88 wrote: »
    Both knew what the job was when they signed up yet still complain about it.

    As for dealing with ''those pesky nurses again'' i'd be far more likely to be dealing with a health care assistant as the nurses would be far too buy on their phones....

    Sure, people should never try to improve their conditions. Just put up and shut up am I right? :rolleyes::rolleyes:


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    #399
    cms88
    Registered Users Posts: 1,584 ✭✭✭cms88


    weisses wrote: »
    I get it you didn't spend much time in a Hospital then ?

    I think it's you that didn't. Considering most of the work nurses claim they do is in fact done by healthcare assistant


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    #400
    cms88
    Registered Users Posts: 1,584 ✭✭✭cms88


    Padre_Pio wrote: »
    Sure, people should never try to improve their conditions. Just put up and shut up am I right? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

    Again likes teachers etc if it's so terrible why do people keep becoming nurses?


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    #401
    Padre_Pio
    Registered Users Posts: 5,073 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    cms88 wrote: »
    Again likes teachers etc if it's so terrible why do people keep becoming nurses?

    Because they like helping people.
    Because nursing is a vocation, or more likely, like many of us, they're 16/17 when filling out a CAO form, with little to no concept of what it's like in the real world working 12 hour shifts for lower than average pay, in stressful substandard conditions.

    Then they get to 18/19, hit the wards and think "what the f*ck have I got myself into?" and consider leaving Ireland, leaving the profession, or campaigning for better conditions?

    And here we are now.


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    #402
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,451 ✭✭✭weisses


    cms88 wrote: »
    I think it's you that didn't. Considering most of the work nurses claim they do is in fact done by healthcare assistant

    What work claimed by nurses is done by HCA's ?


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    #403
    TheTruth123
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 38 ✭TheTruth123


    How is our health system going to cope with the rise in cases, considering the students are on Christmas Holidays.

    Are you we in for a complete ****show?


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    #404
    cms88
    Registered Users Posts: 1,584 ✭✭✭cms88


    weisses wrote: »
    What work claimed by nurses is done by HCA's ?

    Moving patents etc Most of the physical work really. Yet the nurses will claim they do it all


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    #405
    cms88
    Registered Users Posts: 1,584 ✭✭✭cms88


    Padre_Pio wrote: »
    Because they like helping people.
    Because nursing is a vocation, or more likely, like many of us, they're 16/17 when filling out a CAO form, with little to no concept of what it's like in the real world working 12 hour shifts for lower than average pay, in stressful substandard conditions.

    Then they get to 18/19, hit the wards and think "what the f*ck have I got myself into?" and consider leaving Ireland, leaving the profession, or campaigning for better conditions?

    And here we are now.

    Ah yes the classic ''nursing is a calling'' and they all only care about everyone. Yet they have no issues with heading off to the Middle East and ignoring the many and well documented human rights violations...


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    #406
    Padre_Pio
    Registered Users Posts: 5,073 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    cms88 wrote: »
    Ah yes the classic ''nursing is a calling'' and they all only care about everyone. Yet they have no issues with heading off to the Middle East and ignoring the many and well documented human rights violations...

    Wow. Bitter much?

    I presume you run your car on turf, can't be buying that Saudi oil :pac:


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    #407
    Sardonicat
    Registered Users Posts: 12,387 ✭✭✭✭Sardonicat


    cms88 wrote: »
    Moving patents etc Most of the physical work really. Yet the nurses will claim they do it all

    As there is only usually one HCA rostered for duty at a time it's kind off impossible for Nurses not to do physical work. Some of them will have ALL of their time taken up with drugs round, drs round, chasing up and consulting with allied health professionals ( junior drs,physios, dietitians etc) organising transfers, admissions, sorting out discharge. They all have to make detailed nursing notes regarding patients assigned to their care that shift. Only a qualified nurse can perform these roles, its why we have HCAs in the first place, but HCAs cannot carry out all of the physical roles on a ward, it's simply not possible and nurses do them too. The more senior staff on the ward are busy running it, as per above.


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    #408
    cms88
    Registered Users Posts: 1,584 ✭✭✭cms88


    Padre_Pio wrote: »
    Wow. Bitter much?

    I presume you run your car on turf, can't be buying that Saudi oil :pac:

    Not at all. Why would i be?

    No it runs on petrol. I however don't claim to be in a job where i only want to help people do i? Seeing a you said that's one of the reason people become nurses is it not?

    So answer the question why should student nurses be paid when other students on placements etc don't?


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    #409
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,451 ✭✭✭weisses


    cms88 wrote: »
    Moving patents etc Most of the physical work really. Yet the nurses will claim they do it all

    You really don't have a clue do you... You shouldn't put forward as fact whatever nonsense you make up in your head


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    #410
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,451 ✭✭✭weisses


    cms88 wrote: »
    Ah yes the classic ''nursing is a calling'' and they all only care about everyone. Yet they have no issues with heading off to the Middle East and ignoring the many and well documented human rights violations...

    What are nurses doing in the middle East exactly ? I am under the impression they work in hospitals treating and caring for people ... I could be totally wrong though


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    #411
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,451 ✭✭✭weisses


    cms88 wrote: »
    Not at all. Why would i be?

    No it runs on petrol.

    Bit hypocritical lining the pockets of those human rights violators and at the same time whinging about nurses moving to the middle East


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    #412
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Padre_Pio wrote: »
    Because they like helping people.
    Because nursing is a vocation, or more likely, like many of us, they're 16/17 when filling out a CAO form, with little to no concept of what it's like in the real world working 12 hour shifts for lower than average pay, in stressful substandard conditions.

    Then they get to 18/19, hit the wards and think "what the f*ck have I got myself into?" and consider leaving Ireland, leaving the profession, or campaigning for better conditions?

    And here we are now.

    Average nurse is on 50% above the average pay


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    #413
    cms88
    Registered Users Posts: 1,584 ✭✭✭cms88


    weisses wrote: »
    What are nurses doing in the middle East exactly ? I am under the impression they work in hospitals treating and caring for people ... I could be totally wrong though

    I assume that;s what they're doing also. However some of them would be the first to complain about what happens in the Middle East yet have no issue with taking their money.

    Again why do student nurses think they should be treated different to other sutdents on placements? As have already been said other medical students don't.


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    #414
    cms88
    Registered Users Posts: 1,584 ✭✭✭cms88


    weisses wrote: »
    Bit hypocritical lining the pockets of those human rights violators and at the same time whinging about nurses moving to the middle East

    How is it? They claim to be in such a caring profession yet have no problem taking their money. So again why should they be paid as students?


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    #415
    khalessi
    Registered Users Posts: 6,215 ✭✭✭khalessi


    cms88 wrote: »
    I assume that;s what they're doing also. However some of them would be the first to complain about what happens in the Middle East yet have no issue with taking their money.

    Again why do student nurses think they should be treated different to other sutdents on placements? As have already been said other medical students don't.

    Medical students do not work on wards never have, student nurses always worked on wards and continue to do so. There have been plenty examples on this thread of students in many different types of placements getting paid. They should be paid.


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    #416
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,451 ✭✭✭weisses


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    Average nurse is on 50% above the average pay

    Maybe explain this with verifiable numbers ???

    Thanks


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    #417
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    weisses wrote: »
    Maybe explain this with verifiable numbers ???

    Thanks

    what do you want , a CSO report ?

    the average nurse is on between 55k and 60 k per annum , thats a fact

    and No , a nurse three months into his or her career isnt on that kind of money but they are on 30 k minimum


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    #418
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,280 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Years ago, training to be a nurse was outside of uni, it was an apprenticeship.

    Then, nurses argued to make it a "profession", to move the education into university, to switch from being apprentice trainees, to being students.

    They wanted to not be paid.

    So during the placements in years 1, 2, 3, they are not paid.


    Now, it seems, they are asking for the opposite?


    If there are meant to be four nurses on a ward, plus two students, then the students should be learning/observing, and should not be paid.


    OK, if the four nurses don't turn up, just two, and the two students are asked to do work, then that is a management problem, a problem with supervision.

    In a case like that, the training should stop, and the nurses could be paid as HCAs.


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    #419
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,280 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    Average nurse is on 50% above the average pay

    Average earnings for full-time workers in 2019 is 48,946.

    https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/elca/earningsandlabourcostsannualdata2019/


    I well believe that many nurses are on 50k-55k, yes.

    I do not accept that the average nurse is on 50% above the 48k average earnings, i.e. 72k.


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    #420
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Geuze wrote: »
    Average earnings for full-time workers in 2019 is 48,946.

    https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/elca/earningsandlabourcostsannualdata2019/


    I well believe that many nurses are on 50k-55k, yes.

    I do not accept that the average nurse is on 50% above the 48k average earnings, i.e. 72k.

    overtime needs to be added

    the average income is not 48 k per annum so your frame of reference is off


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    #421
    Sardonicat
    Registered Users Posts: 12,387 ✭✭✭✭Sardonicat


    Geuze wrote: »
    Years ago, training to be a nurse was outside of uni, it was an apprenticeship.

    Then, nurses argued to make it a "profession", to move the education into university, to switch from being apprentice trainees, to being students.

    They wanted to not be paid.

    So during the placements in years 1, 2, 3, they are not paid.


    Now, it seems, they are asking for the opposite?


    If there are meant to be four nurses on a ward, plus two students, then the students should be learning/observing, and should not be paid.


    OK, if the four nurses don't turn up, just two, and the two students are asked to do work, then that is a management problem, a problem with supervision.

    In a case like that, the training should stop, and the nurses could be paid as HCAs.

    But they are doing the exact number of time on the wards that they were doing under the apprenticeship scheme doing donkey work. Either cut the the number of unnecessary placement hours and stop forcing them to drudge for free (no other health professionals are expected to do this to qualify and practice competently, their placements are learning focussed) or pay them for the work they do. Personally, I favour the former, but the loss of free labour would bring hospitals to a stand still.


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