Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

thomond2006

First Six Nations start for Rhys Ruddock. He's had an unfortunate knack over the seasons to get injured around January and February.

LuckyLloyd

nerd69 wrote: »

I'll add to he above that international time can absolutely help a guy develop. Look at ntamack. Throw into the france lineup at 19 had some bad games. Now he's a monster

Philosophically you have to be willing to see the long term and prioritise it.

I think the next few weeks, tough as they are, will help move the IRFU and the fans to a place they need to reach for us to be competitive again at some point in the future.

thebaz

Weak team again from Farrel - Earls should have been dropped , I supported Burns last week and said he desrved another go , but not immediatly Byrne should have been selected - Really have little faith in the Farrell project , following the decline since the 2019 , nothing is changing.

ClanofLams

molloyjh wrote: »

Yes because game time is a magic pill that makes guys not up to Test level transform into guys who are.

Except that it doesn't. We've looked at McGrath, Cooney, Marmion and JGP at 9 in the last few years. We've looked at Carbery, Carty, Byrne and Burns at 10. None of those guys are realistically Test level players except for the one that's injured. Playing them in Test games is almost certainly not going to change that.

People actually talk like coaches deliberately dig holes for themselves or deliberately select inferior players. Do any of you know how utterly f-ing dumb that sounds?

Marmion has started wins v England and New Zealand, delivering in both games, performed capably off the bench on numerous . Isn't now a test level player....bizarre stuff.

Most of the other players were thrown in to teams full of far more experienced players who weren't performing. That they didn't perform alongside far bigger names not delivering isn't necessarily proof that they aren't capable of doing so at international level, indeed you would probably need to be a standout international to perform under such circumstances.

TomsOnTheRoof

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

His pass mostly.

Off his weak side (something a test level 9 cannot have) is not good enough. You can't effectively play flat off him because it's too slow.

It's the same issue with McGrath largely

That'd be fair enough if we played flat but we generally don't. Also, the last time we had a scrum half with a flawless pass was probably Stringer. Just seems to me that he's been hard done by, especially given some of the performances he put in.

molloyjh

nerd69 wrote: »

What do you mean we've looked at? Is maby 20 mins maby less off the bench looking at someone?

Sigh, Test matches aren't the only place the national coaches get to see a player. They are just the only thing that you have to go on at this level. You are the one missing data, not the coaches. This idea that coaches can only tell if a player is up to it purely by giving them minutes is absolutely wrong. I've no idea how many times I or anybody else has to say that.

Trey13

Happy with that selection for the most part. Made my thoughts very clear that we shouldn’t have prioritised Murray and Sexton in the Autumn Nations Cup and faced a bit of backlash here. Seems that a lot of opinion has changed. Happy to give the two guys a chance and see how they get on, then we can make more informed judgement.

its_phil

molloyjh wrote: »

Yes because game time is a magic pill that makes guys not up to Test level transform into guys who are.

Except that it doesn't. We've looked at McGrath, Cooney, Marmion and JGP at 9 in the last few years. We've looked at Carbery, Carty, Byrne and Burns at 10. None of those guys are realistically Test level players except for the one that's injured. Playing them in Test games is almost certainly not going to change that.


People actually talk like coaches deliberately dig holes for themselves or deliberately select inferior players. Do any of you know how utterly f-ing dumb that sounds?

Marmion more than proved he is international standard when given starts. Went for ankle surgery the morning after a good performance against the All Blacks and barely got a look in since.

World class? No. Good enough for international rugby? Yes

irelandrover

nerd69 wrote: »

I'll add to he above that international time can absolutely help a guy develop. Look at ntamack. Throw into the france lineup at 19 had some bad games. Now he's a monster

Do you think that Ntamack is a great player becasue he was thrown into the france team at 19. Or was he thrown into the france team at 19 because he was a great player, which he had already shown for Toulouse.

arsebiscuits1

TomsOnTheRoof wrote: »

That's be fair enough if we played flat but we generally don't. Also, the last time we had a scrum half with a flawless pass was probably Stringer. Just seems to me that he's been hard done by, especially given some of the performances he put in.

Of course we play flat off 9? Yes our 10 stands quite deep at times but especially in and around the 22 we often play flat.

And I think you're letting nostalgia get in the way of your opinion on Stringer. While his technique worked, it was extremely flawed replying far too much on one hand.

Murrays passing has always been excellent. And technically better and quicker than Stringer

molloyjh

its_phil wrote: »

Marmion more than proved he is international standard when given starts. Went for ankle surgery the morning after a good performance against the All Blacks and barely got a look in since.

World class? No. Good enough for international rugby? Yes

Marmion isn't even first choice at Connacht anymore. He's been behind Blade for the last 3 inter-pros. If he can't convince Friend, how in the hell is he going to convince Farrell.

I also love how performances from years ago are relevant to some players and not others. Sure Sexton was excellent vs NZ that time.

nerd69

irelandrover wrote: »

Do you think that Ntamack is a great player becasue he was thrown into the france team at 19. Or was he thrown into the france team at 19 because he was a great player, which he had already shown for Toulouse.

Burns had been playing great rugby for ulster my point is you can't make an impression of a player after his first cap or after 10 min cameos

ersatz

aloooof wrote: »

Some stat, this:

https://twitter.com/rpetty80/status/1360194570521313280

Pedant alert. That's not a stat.

But both of them unable to play, perhaps for more than one game, certainly makes for a forced period of development for Farrell and the team. If Farrell has made a mistake up until now it's not to have assumed a Sexton injury enforced absence was inevitable. Murray has been incredibly resilient other than the neck stuff but Sexton has not had a decent run without injury for years. I would have preferred to have seen Sexton bench those games he started in November, but at least Burns got some game time then, it will stand to him on Sunday. This is a huge game for the forwards as Burns/JGP will need a bit of space to settle in and a good start is absolutely vital given how Burns' last game ended. But after POM and Ryan went off last weekend the forwards stood up really well, line out and scrum were solid, they carried and defended well, etc. We might not win but if we go well it will be a big positive. I wonder will Carty come into the squad now?

molloyjh

irelandrover wrote: »

Do you think that Ntamack is a great player becasue he was thrown into the france team at 19. Or was he thrown into the france team at 19 because he was a great player, which he had already shown for Toulouse.

Exactly. He was already showing he was up to that level and that's why he got the shot when he did. Like Carbery and Doris here. If they look good enough then they'll get selected. James Ryan was called up to Ireland without having played any senior rugby of any kind purely because he had shown he was a cut above the rest.

But sure we never select young lads.....

hahashake

If by some miracle Ireland come close or even win, it will throw a massive spanner in a lot of people's mindsets.

molloyjh

nerd69 wrote: »

Burns had been playing great rugby for ulster my point is you can't make an impression of a player after his first cap or after 10 min cameos

He wasn't great in the RDS last month. He's been good for Ulster. Great is a stretch.

UAEguy2020

irelandrover wrote: »

Do you think that Ntamack is a great player becasue he was thrown into the france team at 19. Or was he thrown into the france team at 19 because he was a great player, which he had already shown for Toulouse.

Well he was playing regularly at 10 for France yet wasn’t picked at 10 for any of Toulouse’s big games where they would start Zack Holmes and even Thomas Ramos there.

Dave_The_Sheep

Hopefully Burns has a good game, for his own sake as much as ours. Glad he's gotten the nod, would be great for him to have the chance to get the confidence back after what must be a tough week. No complaints with his selection, presuming Sexton isn't playing from a HIA perspective, he's probably the next best we have.

Happy for Ruddock too, was reading it's his first 6N start? Mad. Please stay injury free.

It'll be an interesting game, at least!

A-Train

I was harsh on Burns last week just after the match when emotions were running high, which I accept however it's going to be a big ask this week of him with a new half back partner in JGP.

Looks like it will be a very tough day at the office for the whole team. Hopefully I'm wrong and they pull a performance together.

UAEguy2020

hahashake wrote: »

If by some miracle Ireland come close or even win, it will throw a massive spanner in a lot of people's mindsets.

Nah they will just wait for him to have a bad game and then blast him. The narrative has been set and is here to stay regardless of what happens unless Burns turns into Dan Carter overnight.

VANG1

I agree with ROG would have started Ross B. Think Earls is lucky and needs a good came with no silly penalties, think Larmour gives defences more to think about. This will be a tough game, best of luck to all the players. Maybe a wet day which might slow them down a bit.

aloooof

Scratchly wrote: »

Ghost attacker? As in Leigh Halfpenny running in support and available for the pass? Nonsense from ROG.

Hatchet job on Lowe to big up his pal Zebo.

"Simon Zebo did well again for Racing 92 against us last Sunday."

Ah c'mon... how can it be a hatchet job when Lowe clearly made defensive mistakes last weekend? And the Zebo line was a throwaway at the very end of the article as they played them last week.

TomsOnTheRoof

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Of course we play flat off 9? Yes our 10 stands quite deep at times but especially in and around the 22 we often play flat.

And I think you're letting nostalgia get in the way of your opinion on Stringer. While his technique worked, it was extremely flawed replying far too much on one hand.

Murrays passing has always been excellent. And technically better and quicker than Stringer

Outside of Beirne last week I'm unable to recall many instances at all where we play consistently flat off 9. It seems to me that any time we play one off the ruck on a crash ball it's generally to a forward who is flat and in a static position. In fact it has been a consistent criticism of this Irish side that we don't take the ball at pace with regard to one man runners.

Murray was a good passer of the ball until that incident against Wales. Since then there has been a noticeable deterioration in his passing game with players often having to take the ball on their hip. I say this as a Munster fan. And regardless of whether Stringer's technique was deficient it worked and worked very well. Steve Smith is the greatest Test Batsman since Bradman yet his technique is completely at odds with the traditional approach.

Marmion may be somewhat deficient on his weaker side but to my mind he has not played poorly for Ireland when he has represented us. Quite the contrary and whilst I'm not saying he should be starting this weekend I do believe that he has been hard done by, especially considering the selection of other players who have been consistently average.

Tommybojangles

I know facts are often glossed over but people do realise the Gibson Park, Byrne and Burns all started games in the Autumn nations Cup?

The Murray Sexton combo started one game out of 4. Gibson Park and Byrne got one start together and GP and Burns both got a start alongside half of the established pairing.

We've been the kings over the years of making 12 changes for a Georgia or Samoa game and seen its not really beneficial, so like it or not I thinks its much better to introduce players alongside established internationals.

molloyjh

aloooof wrote: »

Ah c'mon... how can it be a hatchet job when Lowe clearly made defensive mistakes last weekend? And the Zebo line was a throwaway at the very end of the article as they played them last week.

It was a bit of a hatchet job. For the first try he is saying that as last man, Lowe should be hitting the second last attacker. For the second try he is saying that as the second last man he should be hitting the second last attacker. He doesn't reference Hendersons clear mistake (as the second last man) that leaves the space open for the first try, but he does reference Lowes clear mistake (as the second last man) that leaves the space for the second try. There are fundamental contradictions in the points that he is making.

We've already agreed that for the second try Lowe made a massive mistake and that's on him. But for the first he was put in a no win situation by Henderson and while he could have made a better decision, the damage was already done by the hole that Henderson left. If Wales didn't score there then North would have done something very, very wrong. But instead of acknowledging that, he just points the finger entirely at Lowe. He blames Lowe for causing a hole in one try and ignores the very same mistake Henderson made in creating the hole for the other.

magic17

hahashake wrote: »

If by some miracle Ireland come close or even win, it will throw a massive spanner in a lot of people's mindsets.

No fear of that, it will be a 30 point mauling

ionadnapokot

irelandrover wrote: »

Do you think that Ntamack is a great player becasue he was thrown into the france team at 19. Or was he thrown into the france team at 19 because he was a great player, which he had already shown for Toulouse.

Do you think that James Ryan and Brian O'Driscoll were great players because they were thrown into the Ireland team at 20. Or were they thrown into the Ireland team at 20 because they were a great player, which they had already shown for...hardly anybody.

Just saying!!
One approach doesn't fit all.

It was clear Ntamck, BOD & Ryan all had the makings of greats from a young age.
Some mature on the international stage little by little. Some are "born ready"

Brewster

molloyjh wrote: »

Its so frustrating reading stuff like this because it simply isn't true. At 10 for example, Carbery got his debut at 21 and Jackson at 22. Farrell himself has had no problem goving new guys caps, including Doris at 21.

You are not entitled to your own facts so please stop talking guff that is provably false.

magic17 wrote: »

No fear of that, it will be a 30 point mauling

No chance we are getting beat by that. It’s a damn good pack of forwards. Really good balanced back row, and I expect a big game from Ruddock. Beirne and Hendo more than capable of getting parity against their locks. I hope it rains Sunday, as forecast, and we get the maul going, French won’t like it.

irelandrover

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Do you think that James Ryan and Brian O'Driscoll were great players because they were thrown into the Ireland team at 20. Or were they thrown into the Ireland team at 20 because they were a great player, which they had already shown for...hardly anybody.

Just saying!!
One approach doesn't fit all.

It was clear Ntamck, BOD & Ryan all had the makings of greats from a young age.
Some mature on the international stage little by little. Some are "born ready"

I think they were great players and hence they got games for Ireland. The same as Ntamack was a great player and got games for France at a young age. The fact that he had a lot of games for Toulouse was an added bonus.

I don't think players will become great because you throw them into international rugby at a young age.

UAEguy2020

We would have to play unbelievably bad for it to be a 30 point mauling. The pack and teams in general are still quite evenly matched with just 9/10 being the big area of concern, having said that their 9/10 while very good havent much experience together (only their third appearance together I believe, and only Jalibert 6th start) so while it’s far from ideal atleast it isn’t Ntamack and Dupont who are literally like husband and wife the way to work together and the fact they play together at club level.

The handicap is only 4 points for a reason.