Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122161547#Comment_122161547

God help some people here when central contracts go back closer to equilibrium and they have to rest a sizeable portion of their starting team throughout the year, in addition to losing them for camps and guys on the likes of the EI tour.

Foxtrol

For those saying the EI tour wasn't of significant benefit to Crowley, you should have a chat with his team mate Shane Daly

“Aw, look, he’s been unreal this year,” Daly said. “That Emerging Ireland trip was just unbelievable for him, just the way he was able to step up. He kind of put himself in a leadership role out there as well and he’s brought that back into Munster as well.

https://www.the42.ie/jack-crowley-2-5960254-Jan2023/

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122162305#Comment_122162305

If you don't think…

• Players being unavailable outside a Test window and
• The distribution central contract becoming the most lopsided they've ever been but a significant margin

…are legitimate causes for complaint and discussion on a rugby forum, then I don't know what to tell ya….

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122162381#Comment_122162381

We’ve literally discussed this to death at this juncture but I completely cannot see how the two things you cite are comparable.

If Munster/Ulster/Connacht fans are upset about the distribution of central contracts then the primary entity to be disappointed with is their own provinces for their failures in player development.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122162381#Comment_122162381

Players on central contracts are frequently unavailable outside of test windows to be fair.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122162389#Comment_122162389

Tbh, I agree and am I'm gonna leave it, FTD. (Tho I do see some irony in a poster bemoaning Kleyn being brought up now bring up central contracts into the discussion but there you go….)

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122162394#Comment_122162394

They are, but not to the same scale at the same time, no? (but I obviously agree; that wasn't the point I was making)

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122162394#Comment_122162394

As are players that are not on CC but who play for Ireland

Look, the CC issue was brought up in this discussion to try wind posters up.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122162430#Comment_122162430

It wasn't brought up to wind up posters. It was brought up to highlight that the inevitable outcome of more representation in Irish squads (which the EI tour will hopefully accelerate) is fewer minutes for the province. Leinster, so far as I can see from a quick check, don't have a single player on over 1,000 minutes this season. Munster have some core parts of the squad like Beirne, Ahern, Casey, Crowley and Coombes all well over that. Beirne is obviously an outlier there, but not being on a CC is a core part of why they have more availability.

I suppose the point is just that the disruption is something you have to get used to. I have my issues with the EI tour, but if viewed as a progression to the Ireland squad (which it can be) it is essentially just another example of the IRFU prioritising the Irish team over URC matches. I don't agree with the philosophy completely, but it's not new.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122162470#Comment_122162470

Is Beirne not a CC player

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122162381#Comment_122162381

I never said there shouldn't be cause of complaint or discussion.

I am simply laughing that those who are doing the most complaining about this EI tour being the same ones who are far less impacted by losing other players outside of test windows.

Given managing of minutes of central contracted players being 'the most lopsided they've ever been by a significant margin', in a rational world I'd expect the fans of the province that loses those front line players by such a lopsided amount to be the ones most annoyed by this announcement, as they'll now be missing even more players during the season.

We clearly dont live in a rational world.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122162305#Comment_122162305

We've already had moaning about that in regard to one province with a singular CC. imagine the show when there's multiple players being rested.

aloooof

Is there not a difference between managing minutes across a season versus missing 9 players all at the same time for 3 games?

Is it not obvious which gives you far more leeway and forward planning?

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122162470#Comment_122162470

I think the underlying thing that annoys people is the perception that an EI tour during the season is required because the ireland coaching team finds it hard to just look at a guy playing at a non leinster province and just seeing their potential playing for their province, unless they are absolutely and obviously elite.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122162498#Comment_122162498

Every province in ireland would swap situations. Leinster can spend all that central contract savings on keeping a very talented deep squad behind them.

I mean everyone would probably just choose to get st michaels and blackrock, the two schools responsible for 50% of your playing stock.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122162498#Comment_122162498

Sure one of the few posters involved in complaining about the EI Tour today was last week calling for that singular CC player to be rested this summer for the SA tour because they played a lot of minutes.

Seems to be very little understanding or care for what other provinces have faced doing their best to prop up the Irish national team.

Ben Bailey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122162517#Comment_122162517

Looking at a guy playing for his province ??

Will the game be stopped regularly so the Irfu coach can run on and ask the player to do something slightly differently ?

Being in a training camp and playing for your usual team are light years apart. These players are invited to national camps BECAUSE the Irfu coachs have already seen them play for their province.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122162547#Comment_122162547

Do they stop leinster games and do that?

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122162533#Comment_122162533

What a weird response. You either want to get better, and take what comes with that, or you don't? I guess misery loves company.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122162517#Comment_122162517

I think that perception is deeply flawed. I am sure Jack Crowley would have become a top level 10 for Munster regardless, but he wasn't that when he was selected for the EI tour. He started against Aus with a relatively tiny amount of experience - less playing time than Sam Prendergast currently has.

It gives the Irish coaches an opportunity to see players who are not in the provinces' first 23 in a squad setting and see how well they respond to coaching and the day to day. It is a window to their potential that can not be seen just by going to the odd URC match. It also lets the coaches see how well they can play the game Ireland want as opposed to the province they play for.

There is huge utility to it - I just hate when it takes place.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122162554#Comment_122162554

The point is that 'getting as good as leinster' is basically the same as sitting on top of two schools that constantly pump out world class talent.

When its literally 50% of your players, its them not you. Its not really possible to copy without way more effort and money.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122162516#Comment_122162516

There is a difference, managing minutes across the season is far more difficult.

You're losing your best players, rather than your 2nd/3rd/4th string guys for the EI.

If you're in the knock-out of the CC then there is no scope to get continuity.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122162566#Comment_122162566

Who is asking anyone to copy the Leinster model?

All we're seeing here is moaning that we don't have enough central contracts, moaning about IRFU control over cc players, and now moaning that if we had more cc players our squad wouldn't be good enough to allow them to be rested.

Some people love a good moan, I guess its the Irish way?

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122162564#Comment_122162564

I think that extreme a perception is flawed honestly. But i think its true to some extent.

For reasonably good reasons. Watching someone play for leinster is watching them play in a similar system with a ton of ireland players. It probably is easier to evaluate. Its probably relied on a bit too much though.

I would say that it might be a bit harder though going forward because its pretty clear to me that leinster are changing how they play this year, and ireland are yet to follow.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122162579#Comment_122162579

If you want to have 10 central contracts, you need to have that level of talent coming through.

For most provinces that would require players coming in from a decently wide variety of schools and clubs.

No other province really has that level of pure talent coming from such a narrow source as two schools. Its pretty hard to replicate, so therefore its hard to get to 10 central deals.

There probably is some level of chance to it. Its seem unlikely that they keep producing that much.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122162571#Comment_122162571

Strong disagree; managing them across the season allows far more forward planning, looking at the fixture list etc.

Whereas we now have no idea who the provinces will be playing during the EI tour, but we know there will be 7,8,9 players missing.

The other provinces will likely all be missing guys who are more important to them than the Leinster equivalents. Like I said last time, Cian Prendergast is more important to Connacht than Deegan is to Leinster. I'd go as far as saying Prendergast is more important to Connacht than Doris is to Leinster.

Ben Bailey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122162551#Comment_122162551

No, they do not.

I'll try again.

Players play for their provinces who are coached by IRFU employed coachs and are watched by Ireland coachs. Some of these players are invited to national camps where they are assessed by national coachs. Coaching sessions, as I suspect you know well, allow immediate and direct interventions by coachs. Watching Players play for their club does not.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122162616#Comment_122162616

Yeah, but Doris won't be playing these matches anyway? Anyway, Cian Prendergast obviously won't be going on this tour. As with last time it massively depends on who comes back from the frontline guys, but the players Leinster are missing are likely to be more important, not less because they will already be down so many players.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122162624#Comment_122162624

I have nothing against having players invited to camps. Summer tours, autumn internationals.. all great ideas.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122162626#Comment_122162626

They won't tho, right? The internationals returned early last season while the EI tour was going on.

No Cian Pendergast won't be going on this tour. But he was on the last. And it's pretty reasonable to assume guys going on this tour will be more important to Munster, Ulster and Connacht than the Leinster players on the tour will be. Just like they were on the last.

They just don't have comparable depth.

Look at the list of Munster players the last time. And we still had posters on here telling us it made no difference.