Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122161670#Comment_122161670

Also, not to muddy the water further, but Crowley wasn't selected for that 6N for the most part. Ross Byrne was the backup and Crowley only got on the bench against Italy.

However, I think it is a perfectly reasonable statement that there is an infinitesimally small chance Crowley started against Australia without going on the EI tour. How much impact that had on his total development is impossible to gauge.

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122161670#Comment_122161670

Yeah, it's a fair point, and I don't rule out the possibility that in a different time in the cycle, Crowley could have just broken through as a utility player, and later proven himself at 10, but I think by that time they were in scramble mode.

If you think back - Frawley was never really the main plan either. Harry Byrne was capped against USA in July '21, played against Argentina in Nov '21, and was brought to NZ as the intended starter for the Maori games. He got injured down there (in typical HB fashion), and they shunted in Frawley last minute. Frawley was announced on that tour (NZ 2022) as a centre. The fact Frawley went reasonably well there in those games is what prompted Ireland to then start thinking of him as a 10.

Part of the reason for the EI tour was ostensibly to give Frawley a chance to build more experience in the Irish coaching system at 10, but he got injured right before it. Even still then, he started the Maori game in the RDS, and got injured which is when Crowley came in.

I think though by that stage, we were less than 12 months out from a RWC and if you think of the 10 jersey we had a 37-year old and really nothing else. They'd utterly lost faith in Carbery, Ross Byrne was in the Irish wilderness, and they'd tried guys like Carty and Burns without success. They were casting around to try and find an answer at 10, and that's where the gap was in the squad, I just don't think Crowley would have gotten that spot by playing (really well incidentally) at 12 or 15 for Munster.

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122161722#Comment_122161722

Also, FWIW - I'm not claiming the EI tour had some massive impact on Crowley's development or made him a better player or anything like that, I'm just saying if we realistically look at it, he wasn't (justifiably) on the Irish coaching team's radar in September 2022, and the thing that changed that was the EI tour. It sparked the chain of events which led to him making the RWC squad less than a year later.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122161739#Comment_122161739

I completely agree. I think it accelerated his development to the Irish jersey undoubtedly. Whether he would have made it in the time for the WC anyway none of us will ever know.

I still hate the concept of the EI tours though and think we would be annoyed if the Welsh for example were doing them.

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122161750#Comment_122161750

I really like the concept - I just wish they were even a week or 2 earlier. Happening during the typical window for pre-season games would be fine by me tbh.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122161758#Comment_122161758

Ok yes, that would also be fine by me. By hate the concept I mean taking places away during the URC.

I think the Currie Cup might get in the way earlier? but sod it, just play pre-season matches against the SA URC teams. The opposition is crap anyway.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122161750#Comment_122161750

You might say the Welsh are already doing them with the first team offloaded to England/France and the regions been used to develop young players

RichieRich_89

I suppose the ideal scenario is if a province is picking a 'steady Eddie', for want of a better term, but there's a better international prospect due to having greater athleticism/physicality/dynamism behind them not getting gametime. There was a period when Michael Bent was ahead of Porter for Leinster, but behind him for Ireland. Similarly, Ross Molony was ahead of Baird and McCarthy at provincial level but not for Ireland for a time. You're looking for these sorts of scenarios, where essentially the Ireland selectors skip the guys who probably don't have a high enough ceiling who stay and hold the fort in the URC, and move on with players who look to have higher ceilings who aren't playing much for their province anyway.

Of course, there probably aren't enough of those situations to fill out a 35-man squad, so there will be some level of disruption for the provinces. But the best way to look at it is short term pain for long term gain. It gives players' Ireland prospects a boost; if some go on to play internationally then they become better players - like JGP improved out of sight - and it helps the provinces to be stronger ultimately.

Ben Bailey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122161687#Comment_122161687

The point was made earlier that EI tours are also for coach development. It would seem difficult to run simultaneous camps during Test windows with coaching teams working with up to 70 players in separate locations (are there rules about squad sizes for Test matches ?. Maybe all the players and all the coaching staff + S&C + analysts + medics etc could all converge. It'd be like a rugby jamboree.)

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122161971#Comment_122161971

Having the EI tour during the test window would mean the coach's wouldn't have time to work with the players outside the main squad. Ireland only has so many coachs and it would seem pointless to have another full coaching ticket for the EI, especially when it seems Ireland want to hire from within so this gives the other coachs for Ireland a chance to run the camp and the players etc. Excellent experience for the coachs and also the players.

It doesn't matter when or how Ireland run these tours, the same people will complain. Too many players from their province and its affecting their season, too few players and it's bias towards other provinces, the list goes on.

You hear every time, "we do the same every WC cycle and then lose", then when Ireland try something different with the EI tour you have the same person complaining because it is different

It's a no win situation

nerd69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122162057#Comment_122162057

I mean your logic seems to be were not selecting players from other provinces so we have to accept any alternative or else were never happy. Not sure thats fair

phog

Way back (this morning) I posted the Irish team are playing SA on the 6th &13th June, why not use the following two weeks to have the EI games, you could even fly the EI lads out for midweek of the last match so they to experience training with the big boys and then after the 2nd game they fly the senior lads home, the coaches & support staff stay on. Least disruption from an Irish POV.

Then coaches & EI players have a break before the players return for preseason to their provinces and play for their provinces while the Irish Squad players are on forced rest periods.

Everyone's a winner

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122162072#Comment_122162072

No, I am saying it doesn't matter what Ireland does the same people will find a reason to moan

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122162092#Comment_122162092

You realise in that scenario they would miss URC games anyway right? It would massively delay the start of their preseason which is the same reason the international guys come back late.

nerd69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122162098#Comment_122162098

What people? "People will always moan" is not particularly additive like. There have been several alternativ suggestions not just moaning

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122162103#Comment_122162103

Well yes and no, the senior lads are generally involved in the end of season games because they're knockout games, the EI players may not be so heavily involved and certainly won't be playing the 6Ns so their rest periods are less managed.

Is it better to have EI players tied up in a tour to SA in June or September?

Obviously, I think June. Hard to see any gain to the provinces in having it in September

nerd69

Not neccisarily. The u20s wc will run into july but i think brian gleeson will come off the bench in early games like he did this year.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122162098#Comment_122162098

You can claim "moaning" but the reality is the Provinces will be without a good chunk of players outside a Test window.

There are perfectly legitimate grounds for complaint here.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122162119#Comment_122162119

Their rest periods are less managed but if they are in SA until the end of June they can't return and go straight into pre-season, which is essentially when everyone else is starting it.

nerd69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122162167#Comment_122162167

Brian gleeson played in a world cup final.on july 14th and ppayed in munsters first game of the season so its definitely doable and i would think a lot less disruptive to the province

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122162167#Comment_122162167

Well I think I covered that in an earlier post where I actually said they too would require a break but they'd still be around for the preseason games (late August) and early URC matches in September.

If the tour goes ahead in September they will miss those games, the games when the Irish squad will be rested and the games these very players would normally be used.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122162175#Comment_122162175

The URC started at the end of October. If it starts as late next season (which I assume it won't) then an EI tour in Sep/Oct won't impact it anyway…

nerd69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122162197#Comment_122162197

Ahh right you are apologies

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122162197#Comment_122162197

Presumably that's down to the RWC tho, so I'd assume like yourself it'll start back in September again next season tho.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122162209#Comment_122162209

I assume, though I actually have no idea. Aren't the summer tours permanently moving later?

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122162190#Comment_122162190

They need a break and then they need preseason. Cutting their preseason short is not going to be viable - it's not just about the games. Preseason is when they put on mass etc, which is something most development players desperately need.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122162219#Comment_122162219

The Ireland A matches were never that late and I can't recall too many players or supporters complaining.

Are you actually ok with EI Tours happening in September especially if the URC kicks off in September too

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122162277#Comment_122162277

I have repeatedly said I'm not happy with it. But if the tour happens after the Summer Tests they will miss those matches anyway.

The only scenario they are able to go as a full squad with dedicated coaching and not miss meaningful matches is to do it during the pre-season match window. Which, to be clear, they might be doing. I'm incredibly unclear on when the URC starts this year.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122161094#Comment_122161094

Is there any discussion known to man where Kleyn will not get dragged into?

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122162288#Comment_122162288

I've no difficulty with that timing, obviously I'd prefer they play the preseason matches with their provinces but the timeline I outlined is because a few posters thought we had no choice but to go with September as the coaches are tired up with the tour to SA.