There is a difference, managing minutes across the season is far more difficult.
You're losing your best players, rather than your 2nd/3rd/4th string guys for the EI.
If you're in the knock-out of the CC then there is no scope to get continuity.
Who is asking anyone to copy the Leinster model?
All we're seeing here is moaning that we don't have enough central contracts, moaning about IRFU control over cc players, and now moaning that if we had more cc players our squad wouldn't be good enough to allow them to be rested.
Some people love a good moan, I guess its the Irish way?
I think that extreme a perception is flawed honestly. But i think its true to some extent. For reasonably good reasons. Watching someone play for leinster is watching them play in a similar system with a ton of ireland players. It probably is easier to evaluate. Its probably relied on a bit too much though. I would say that it might be a bit harder though going forward because its pretty clear to me that leinster are changing how they play this year, and ireland are yet to follow.
If you want to have 10 central contracts, you need to have that level of talent coming through. For most provinces that would require players coming in from a decently wide variety of schools and clubs.
No other province really has that level of pure talent coming from such a narrow source as two schools. Its pretty hard to replicate, so therefore its hard to get to 10 central deals. There probably is some level of chance to it. Its seem unlikely that they keep producing that much.
Strong disagree; managing them across the season allows far more forward planning, looking at the fixture list etc.
Whereas we now have no idea who the provinces will be playing during the EI tour, but we know there will be 7,8,9 players missing.
The other provinces will likely all be missing guys who are more important to them than the Leinster equivalents. Like I said last time, Cian Prendergast is more important to Connacht than Deegan is to Leinster. I'd go as far as saying Prendergast is more important to Connacht than Doris is to Leinster.
No, they do not.
I'll try again.
Players play for their provinces who are coached by IRFU employed coachs and are watched by Ireland coachs. Some of these players are invited to national camps where they are assessed by national coachs. Coaching sessions, as I suspect you know well, allow immediate and direct interventions by coachs. Watching Players play for their club does not.
Yeah, but Doris won't be playing these matches anyway? Anyway, Cian Prendergast obviously won't be going on this tour. As with last time it massively depends on who comes back from the frontline guys, but the players Leinster are missing are likely to be more important, not less because they will already be down so many players.
I have nothing against having players invited to camps. Summer tours, autumn internationals.. all great ideas.
They won't tho, right? The internationals returned early last season while the EI tour was going on.
No Cian Pendergast won't be going on this tour. But he was on the last. And it's pretty reasonable to assume guys going on this tour will be more important to Munster, Ulster and Connacht than the Leinster players on the tour will be. Just like they were on the last.
They just don't have comparable depth.
Look at the list of Munster players the last time. And we still had posters on here telling us it made no difference.
They returned a bit earlier than normal yeah, in dribs and drabs. Leinster also didn't have that many players on it last time.
They aren't missing as many frontline players in the first place 🤷
We will have to see how this one plays out really. Though I'd strongly dispute the argument that it impacts other provinces more given they are far more likely to have their first choice players available at the time.
But having to "wait and see" is the main takeaway for me. We don't know when it is, we don't know when the URC starts, we don't know who is going etc etc
Look I'm happy to see how it plays our with regards fixture dates. But I think the most likely outcome is it'll overlap with URC Fixtures.
With my Munster hat on, I think we'll be in a much better place to manage it this time, I just still found it bizarre that last time loads of posters claimed it made no difference. Looking at the list of 9 players now, it doesn't stand up to any reason.
I think it absolutely made a difference in multiple ways - for the players and for Munster. Particularly with a new coach. I have significant sympathy and I don't like the timing.
But missing 9+ players at the start of the season is also irritatingly common for Leinster. I suspect that's the main genesis of the bemusement.
But the Irish Squad is being rested anyway now they're taking more at the same time and then trying to integrate them all back in at around the same time
But this is exactly my beef with it.
If you don't feel your players are getting a fair crack and the Irish coaches can't/won't see how good they are, then surely anything that improves their shot at a national breakthrough is a good thing?
And let's be honest, Munster do not need to target every single URC game for a win. They can afford to throw the academy lads out for a game or two in September, it'll be grand.
How are other provinces possibly missing more important players to the EI tour than Leinster will miss when they are forced to rest their central contract players?
That's not the argument I've made. They're never forced to rest 9 at a single time for 3 straight matches, right?
And fwiw, I think there absolutely are examples from the last EI tour. Cian Prendergast being a prime example - he was more important to Connacht than Doris to Leinster.
Similarly Frisch, more important to Munster than Ringrose to Leinster.
By dint of the depth that Leinster. The gap isn't as big as it is at other Provinces.
Most discussions i would think
Sure they have, at the exact same time of the year, every year for the last few.
You're not being asked to rest 9 of their first choice players for 3 straight matches.
You're getting upset about missing some back-ups, 3rd, or 4th choice players for 3 matches.
You do your best
I bring him up when hes relevant to the conversation
This.
I am surprised at the lack of awareness about how many players Leinster miss at the start of practically every season.
Then there are Irish camps when that number aren't there, during test windows when the Irish starters aren't released on rest weekends, then they have a choice at the end of the season of either having no continuity by picking a mixed bag in matches between CC knockouts or resting them in bulk, like the SA tours the last two years.
Seems like certain posters want all the benefits of Irish involvement but none of the pain.
Seems Like some think others should be happy with the pain but not the benefits
The exact same argument was rolled out last time. Now look at the list of players and tell me they were 3rd or 4th choice:
Frisch, Daly, Nash, Crowley, Hodnett, Ahern, Barron, Salanoa, Wycherly.
Leinster's first 3 games this season:
https://www.unitedrugby.com/match-centre/202301/united-rugby-championship/glasgow-warriors-vs-leinster-rugby-2023-10-22/276146#tabs-lineups
https://www.unitedrugby.com/match-centre/202301/united-rugby-championship/leinster-rugby-vs-hollywoodbets-sharks-2023-10-28/276150#tabs-lineups
https://www.unitedrugby.com/match-centre/202301/united-rugby-championship/leinster-rugby-vs-edinburgh-rugby-2023-11-04/276158#tabs-lineups
Easily missing 10+ starters for each
Though I largely agree with the complaints, the tour shouldn't overlap with URC games.
No one knows who was 1st, 2nd, 3rd choices for Munster last time around, we had a completely new set of coaches and a new game plan.
There’s also two other factors that show the difficulty Leinster have that the other three provinces don’t have in recent years:
Leinster have gone as far as possible in Europe 4 times in the past 6 seasons, as well as being bulk supplier to the Ireland squad for a 6 Nations campaign in the middle of the season.
This means that not only do Leinster’s frontline players play huge minutes but they play far more high intensity minutes at the very biggest stage.
I had looked at comping this prior to the last weekend of rugby and at that point, by comparing Leinster’s likely 23 for the final next weekend to Munster’s first choice 23, the cumulative minutes played are considerably higher (c. 2,200 mins higher) for the Leinster contingent, and once again, if you think of the make up of those minutes (European Cup knock outs and international matches) anyone suggesting Leinster’s “depth” players aren’t important to them are utterly clueless.
Three consecutive Leinster squads this season. Rounds 10 11 and 12 of the URC.
There are a lot more than 9 players who don’t feature below.
H McErlean; T O’Brien, L Turner, J Osborne, R Russell; R Byrne, L McGrath; J Boyle, L Barron, T Clarkson; R Molony, J Jenkins; W Connors, S Penny, M Deegan.
Replacements: J McKee, E Byrne, M Ala’alatoa, B Deeny, R Ruddock, B Murphy, S Prendergast, B Brownlee
J Larmour; L Turner, J Osborne, H Byrne, R Russell, R Byrne, L McGrath; J Boyle, L Barron, T Clarkson; R Molony, J Jenkins; W Connors, S Penny, M Deegan.
Replacements: J McKee, M Milne, M Ala'alatoa, B Deeny, R Ruddock, B Murphy, S Prendergast, B Brownlee
C Frawley; R Russell, L Turner, J Osborne, A Osborne; R Byrne, L McGrath; E Byrne, L Barron, T Clarkson; R Molony, J Jenkins; W Connors, S Penny (capt), Max Deegan.
Replacements: J McKee, M Milne, M Ala’alatoa, B Deeny, D Mangan, F Gunne, S Prendergast, H McErlean.
So you're agreeing that Munster weren't asked to miss 9 of their first choice players?
Just for the pedants out there, these are the guys Leinster are missing here:
Hugo Keenan, Jimmy O’Brien, Garry Ringrose, Robbie Henshaw, James Lowe, Jamison Gibson Park, Andrew Porter, Dan Sheehan, Tadhg Furlong, Joe McCarthy, James Ryan, Ryan Baird, Josh van der Flier, Caelan Doris, Jack Conan, Ronan Kelleher, Cian Healy.
That’s 17 players - effectively forced to miss these games because of the fact you can’t play your internationals every single week, especially when going deep in Europe.
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