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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • #33122
    Former Former Former
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,732 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122161556#Comment_122161556

    But i dont think its unfair to say a player shouldn't have to make a tour that maby runs every two years in order to make an international squad.

    I don't think anyone claimed they did. This is just another way to look closely at players, maybe I missed the memo where IRFU said only EI players could be capped.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • #33123
    aloooof
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,759 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122161574#Comment_122161574

    Do you think that's a fair position to put the players in?



  • #33124
    Benjamin Cold Sorbet
    Posts: 1,345 ✭✭✭ Benjamin Cold Sorbet


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122161556#Comment_122161556

    Absolutely nobody claimed Jack Crowley wouldn't have made an international squad without the EI tour, but it is almost certain he wouldn't have been capped as early as Nov '22, made the 2023 6N Squad and from there the RWC squad without the EI tour.

    We're just repeating ourselves now, and obviously he'd have pushed through at some point, but given he'd barely played for Munster at 10 at the beginning of that season (and wasn't really playing at 10 regularly until the Champions Cup knockouts in April), it is wild to suggest he'd have made the 6N squad without the EI tour.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • #33125
    Former Former Former
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,732 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122161575#Comment_122161575

    Why, say, couldn't they have had a mid-week game during the AI's? 

    We did that in 2022 as well, if you remember. Three of them, in fact, if you add the Maori games in the summer.

    But that's a completely different set-up; the senior coaches will always be (correctly) focused on the senior team and the dirt-trackers will never get anything like the time and attention they would get on an EI tour.



  • #33126
    Alessandro Vast Numskull
    Posts: 10,091 ✭✭✭✭ Alessandro Vast Numskull


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122161596#Comment_122161596

    But sure this has been my point we have no idea how much hed have played. If he was playing significan mins for munster and i think he would have then no reason not to bring him in ei tour or not

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


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  • #33127
    Clo-Clo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122161233#Comment_122161233

    Makes the coaching ticket for Ireland all the more impressive to win back to back 6 nations and stay number 1 in the World for so long

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • #33128
    Alessandro Vast Numskull
    Posts: 10,091 ✭✭✭✭ Alessandro Vast Numskull


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122161621#Comment_122161621

    I think irelands coaching ticket is clearly extremely talented but im not sure why that would impact it



  • #33129
    Clo-Clo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122161613#Comment_122161613

    This was noticeable in the Maoiri game when the team didn't look like it had the right prep for the game. Mostly down to lack of time on focus on the main team

    An EI tour gives the coachs full focus on the squad and gives players who might not have been in a squad yet a feel for how it works. Valuable experience



  • #33130
    Alessandro Vast Numskull
    Posts: 10,091 ✭✭✭✭ Alessandro Vast Numskull


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122161585#Comment_122161585

    Well the conversation was surrounding jack crowley not likely playing in autumn, 6n, wc warmups and wc without thr ei tour



  • #33131
    aloooof
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,759 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122161613#Comment_122161613

    Exactly my point; done outside a Test Window and I had no problem with those games.

    The Maori games in particular were what was referenced when the EI tour was announced. There was such an outcry from the Provinces, they ended-up picking the next level of player again down the pecking order for the EI tour.



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  • #33132
    Benjamin Cold Sorbet
    Posts: 1,345 ✭✭✭ Benjamin Cold Sorbet


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122161617#Comment_122161617

    He did play for significant minutes for Munster - he just played them in positions that weren't 10.

    If we assume Munster's injury issues unfolded exactly as they did, and it's important to bear in mind that even after he returned from the EI tour in early October, 7 out of his next 8 appearances for Munster were in positions other than 10.

    He wasn't going to be picked as a 10 in the Irish 6N squad if he wasn't playing there - as it was, he got picked having played very little rugby for Munster there at 10, but that was solely because he'd showed what he could do in SA, and then from there got the cap against Fiji, then the game against Australia.

    It's all basically a number of steps or links in a chain - one thing led to the next etc.

    Do you honestly think he is sitting on the bench against Fiji or starting against Australia without having gone on the EI tour?

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • #33133
    Ben Bailey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭Ben Bailey


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122161590#Comment_122161590

    No. That's precisely the point. The IRFU invite players & expect that those players will welcome that invite. That their provincial coaching staff & supporters might not doesn't impact those players' decision to travel. But you either have development tours or you don't. Not having them is, imo, the poorer option. My 'tongue in cheek' emoji clearly didn't translate.



  • #33134
    Alessandro Vast Numskull
    Posts: 10,091 ✭✭✭✭ Alessandro Vast Numskull


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122161653#Comment_122161653

    But the coaching staff loves utility. No real reason to believe he wouldnt make the squad in a utility role as most of our backs do.

    I dont but for other reasons that i dont think are worth bringing up not because of the ei tour

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • #33135
    aloooof
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,759 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122161653#Comment_122161653

    He wasn't going to be picked as a 10 in the Irish 6N squad if he wasn't playing there

    Not trying to pick a fight here, FTD, but wasn't Frawley considered at 10 for Ireland despite not really playing there for Leinster?

    (I'm sympathetic to the premise but I don't think we can rule it out either based on this?)

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • #33136
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 36,370 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122160440#Comment_122160440

    I thought the story was they wanted to bring Healy but Munster said they needed him and they could have Crowley instead?

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • #33137
    Alessandro Vast Numskull
    Posts: 10,091 ✭✭✭✭ Alessandro Vast Numskull


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122161670#Comment_122161670

    In fairness hes mentioned not being a fan of frawley in squads either so hes a constant opinion on it no real issues there



  • #33138
    aloooof
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,759 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122161659#Comment_122161659

    I'm not overtly against the premise of a development tour. I just don't think it should happen outside a Test window.

    We were crying out for a quality domestic competition for years; we finally have one, and I don't think the Provinces should be so disadvantaged because of it.

    Look, we'll see what kind of a squad is selected, but I just don't like the idea in principle.



  • #33139
    Alessandro Vast Numskull
    Posts: 10,091 ✭✭✭✭ Alessandro Vast Numskull


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122161674#Comment_122161674

    Weve no real idea tbh all rumors at the time



  • #33140
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 32,777 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122161670#Comment_122161670

    Also, not to muddy the water further, but Crowley wasn't selected for that 6N for the most part. Ross Byrne was the backup and Crowley only got on the bench against Italy.

    However, I think it is a perfectly reasonable statement that there is an infinitesimally small chance Crowley started against Australia without going on the EI tour. How much impact that had on his total development is impossible to gauge.



  • #33141
    Benjamin Cold Sorbet
    Posts: 1,345 ✭✭✭ Benjamin Cold Sorbet


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122161670#Comment_122161670

    Yeah, it's a fair point, and I don't rule out the possibility that in a different time in the cycle, Crowley could have just broken through as a utility player, and later proven himself at 10, but I think by that time they were in scramble mode.

    If you think back - Frawley was never really the main plan either. Harry Byrne was capped against USA in July '21, played against Argentina in Nov '21, and was brought to NZ as the intended starter for the Maori games. He got injured down there (in typical HB fashion), and they shunted in Frawley last minute. Frawley was announced on that tour (NZ 2022) as a centre. The fact Frawley went reasonably well there in those games is what prompted Ireland to then start thinking of him as a 10.

    Part of the reason for the EI tour was ostensibly to give Frawley a chance to build more experience in the Irish coaching system at 10, but he got injured right before it. Even still then, he started the Maori game in the RDS, and got injured which is when Crowley came in.

    I think though by that stage, we were less than 12 months out from a RWC and if you think of the 10 jersey we had a 37-year old and really nothing else. They'd utterly lost faith in Carbery, Ross Byrne was in the Irish wilderness, and they'd tried guys like Carty and Burns without success. They were casting around to try and find an answer at 10, and that's where the gap was in the squad, I just don't think Crowley would have gotten that spot by playing (really well incidentally) at 12 or 15 for Munster.



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  • #33142
    Benjamin Cold Sorbet
    Posts: 1,345 ✭✭✭ Benjamin Cold Sorbet


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122161722#Comment_122161722

    Also, FWIW - I'm not claiming the EI tour had some massive impact on Crowley's development or made him a better player or anything like that, I'm just saying if we realistically look at it, he wasn't (justifiably) on the Irish coaching team's radar in September 2022, and the thing that changed that was the EI tour. It sparked the chain of events which led to him making the RWC squad less than a year later.



  • #33143
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 32,777 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122161739#Comment_122161739

    I completely agree. I think it accelerated his development to the Irish jersey undoubtedly. Whether he would have made it in the time for the WC anyway none of us will ever know.

    I still hate the concept of the EI tours though and think we would be annoyed if the Welsh for example were doing them.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • #33144
    Benjamin Cold Sorbet
    Posts: 1,345 ✭✭✭ Benjamin Cold Sorbet


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122161750#Comment_122161750

    I really like the concept - I just wish they were even a week or 2 earlier. Happening during the typical window for pre-season games would be fine by me tbh.



  • #33145
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 32,777 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122161758#Comment_122161758

    Ok yes, that would also be fine by me. By hate the concept I mean taking places away during the URC.

    I think the Currie Cup might get in the way earlier? but sod it, just play pre-season matches against the SA URC teams. The opposition is crap anyway.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • #33146
    Clo-Clo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122161750#Comment_122161750

    You might say the Welsh are already doing them with the first team offloaded to England/France and the regions been used to develop young players



  • #33147
    RichieRich_89
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,940 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    I suppose the ideal scenario is if a province is picking a 'steady Eddie', for want of a better term, but there's a better international prospect due to having greater athleticism/physicality/dynamism behind them not getting gametime. There was a period when Michael Bent was ahead of Porter for Leinster, but behind him for Ireland. Similarly, Ross Molony was ahead of Baird and McCarthy at provincial level but not for Ireland for a time. You're looking for these sorts of scenarios, where essentially the Ireland selectors skip the guys who probably don't have a high enough ceiling who stay and hold the fort in the URC, and move on with players who look to have higher ceilings who aren't playing much for their province anyway.

    Of course, there probably aren't enough of those situations to fill out a 35-man squad, so there will be some level of disruption for the provinces. But the best way to look at it is short term pain for long term gain. It gives players' Ireland prospects a boost; if some go on to play internationally then they become better players - like JGP improved out of sight - and it helps the provinces to be stronger ultimately.



  • #33148
    Ben Bailey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭Ben Bailey


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122161687#Comment_122161687

    The point was made earlier that EI tours are also for coach development. It would seem difficult to run simultaneous camps during Test windows with coaching teams working with up to 70 players in separate locations (are there rules about squad sizes for Test matches ?. Maybe all the players and all the coaching staff + S&C + analysts + medics etc could all converge. It'd be like a rugby jamboree.)



  • #33149
    Clo-Clo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122161971#Comment_122161971

    Having the EI tour during the test window would mean the coach's wouldn't have time to work with the players outside the main squad. Ireland only has so many coachs and it would seem pointless to have another full coaching ticket for the EI, especially when it seems Ireland want to hire from within so this gives the other coachs for Ireland a chance to run the camp and the players etc. Excellent experience for the coachs and also the players.

    It doesn't matter when or how Ireland run these tours, the same people will complain. Too many players from their province and its affecting their season, too few players and it's bias towards other provinces, the list goes on.

    You hear every time, "we do the same every WC cycle and then lose", then when Ireland try something different with the EI tour you have the same person complaining because it is different

    It's a no win situation



  • #33150
    Alessandro Vast Numskull
    Posts: 10,091 ✭✭✭✭ Alessandro Vast Numskull


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122162057#Comment_122162057

    I mean your logic seems to be were not selecting players from other provinces so we have to accept any alternative or else were never happy. Not sure thats fair



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  • #33151
    phog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,240 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Way back (this morning) I posted the Irish team are playing SA on the 6th &13th June, why not use the following two weeks to have the EI games, you could even fly the EI lads out for midweek of the last match so they to experience training with the big boys and then after the 2nd game they fly the senior lads home, the coaches & support staff stay on. Least disruption from an Irish POV.

    Then coaches & EI players have a break before the players return for preseason to their provinces and play for their provinces while the Irish Squad players are on forced rest periods.

    Everyone's a winner



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