What would you have done?

One eyed Jack

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Although, they would be responsible for getting drunk and choosing to walk home, as opposed to getting a taxi home instead. They're not to blame for being attacked.

In any case, the original post of the thread, was about whether to help someone who was walking around drunk late at night, or something similar. Where there was no aggressor involved... hence the reference to personal responsibility.

It’s a moot point about personal responsibility if nothing happens to them though? The point only ever comes up when people look to apportion blame and other people point out that the victim is not to blame for someone else’s actions.

There are plenty of posters here have said they wouldn’t help someone in those circumstances because they might be accused of something, yet they’re the person has already formed the idea in their head that the other person could have ill intentions towards them, but they have no personal responsibility for their own thoughts, it’s because of someone else’s actions that they won’t help the person in front of them.

How does that work? Because from where I’m sitting it’s pretty convenient for them. And that’s fine btw, I don’t judge anyone for choosing not to offer someone in distress assistance, they have their reasons. But if their reason means putting responsibility on a completely innocent stranger for their thoughts... that’s odd, is the kindest way I can put it.

One eyed Jack

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It’s a moot point about personal responsibility if nothing happens to them though?

Not sure the relevance of that, though.

The point only ever comes up when people look to apportion blame and other people point out that the victim is not to blame for someone else’s actions.

Blame. Responsibility. Being responsible for themselves, and their own behavior. Being a victim due to their own actions, choices, etc... as opposed to becoming a victim solely due to an external force, ie, an aggressor.

There are plenty of posters here have said they wouldn’t help someone in those circumstances because they might be accused of something, yet they’re the person has already formed the idea in their head that the other person could have ill intentions towards them, but they have no personal responsibility for their own thoughts, it’s because of someone else’s actions that they won’t help the person in front of them.

They're taking responsibility for their own thoughts, because they're placing a priority on their own safety. Which is reasonable. To assess the possible risks before committing yourself to an action. Especially, if others depend on them (parent, carer, etc), then it would be irresponsible to blindly jump into situations, which might cause trouble.

How does that work? Because from where I’m sitting it’s pretty convenient for them. And that’s fine btw, I don’t judge anyone for choosing not to offer someone in distress assistance, they have their reasons. But if their reason means putting responsibility on a completely innocent stranger for their thoughts... that’s odd, is the kindest way I can put it.

So, it's fine for you to assume someone else's innocence (and lack of any possible threat/risk) but not okay for someone else to assume a risk from a situation? After all, we're talking about situations which incur increased risk.. ie,. late at night, the other person being drunk/drugged (and so is likely to be unpredictable), etc.

You see, in Asia, women are often used as bait to attract men, for all manner of scams. And after living here for many years, that affects my perception of risk, regardless of where I am. Just as I have learned to be careful of groups of males (adults/teens) in the evening/night, and I will be far more careful near them, even to the point of crossing the road to avoid close contact. (as I have been mugged before, or simply beaten up by complete strangers for the "fun" of it)

We experience situations in many places, we learn, and we adapt. I would love for Ireland to have remained the incredibly safe country it was (in comparison to other countries) when I was a child/teen, but it hasn't stayed that way. With immigration comes other ideas, and values, some positive, some negative.. just as society has changed due to the internet, social media, and movies. Crime in Ireland has changed, and it's not the very safe country it used to be. Which is why we should be considering what else has changed, before we, ourselves, become victims to that change.

When I see someone in some kind of distress, experience has taught me to consider the risks and assess possible threats, before stepping in to help. So, yes, personal responsibility for my own safety is important.

One eyed Jack

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You see, in Asia, women are often used as bait to attract men, for all manner of scams. And after living here for many years, that affects my perception of risk, regardless of where I am. Just as I have learned to be careful of groups of males (adults/teens) in the evening/night, and I will be far more careful near them, even to the point of crossing the road to avoid close contact. (as I have been mugged before, or simply beaten up by complete strangers for the "fun" of it).

And in those circumstances I’ve no doubt there were plenty of people to point out where you went wrong and what you should have done instead and all the rest of it. Pointing out that you had a personal responsibility for yourself after the fact is kinda missing the point. It’s an incredibly easy thing to do in hindsight to say to someone - “No personal responsibility for your own safety and that’s what happens!”, y’know?

Absolutely like you said - experience informs our judgement, but if your experience is limited then you’re not in any position to make an informed decision given the lack of experience - getting off your face seemed like a good idea at the time, as did walking home. Obviously to the sober observer your judgement is shìt (not you personally)

(You make China sound like a blast btw )

Ash.J.Williams

Kraftwerk wrote: »

What are people afraid of happening if they asked her if she was OK? If she takes it the wrong way or is uncomfortable she'll ignore you or say she's grand or something. She's not going to start blowing a rape whistle at the side of the road because someone asked if she was ok.

More than likely she'd either say she's OK, take the lift or ask to use your phone to call someone to pick her up.

A worse thing would be to carry on, do nothing and hear something happened to her. That'd worry me more than accidentally looking like a perv.

honey traps, stop to help and then her friends kill you

justshane

Joselyn Narrow Self-determination wrote: »

I would have done the same.

The other option would have been to call the Gardaí, but I doubt they would come

Gaurds don’t pick and choose calls, if a call is out in a car will always go. Might not be I’m Immediately depending on priority calls already in.

Antares35

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It’s pretty simple to demonstrate by way of example -

Someone’s walking home drunk and they walk into a wall, saying “who put that wall there?” is pretty stupid, they’re personally responsible in those circumstances for their own misfortune.

Someone’s walking home drunk and they get attacked by another person, saying “I’m not responsible for that person choosing to attack me”, is an astute observation.

What about someone who is rear ended by a drunk driver and suffers injury because they aren't wearing a seatbelt? Any compensation awarded for pain and suffering will be reduced in accordance with the level of contributory negligence on the part of the claimant i.e. victim in these circumstances, notwithstanding that clearly the defendant who rear ended the victim is obviously at fault. It isn't as black and white as saying "oh someone else is the bad guy therefore I'm completely not accountable at all for my own conduct".

9db3xj7z41fs5u

rapul wrote: »

Unfortunately it's not so black and white, a random drunk woman or girl, call the cops is the best option but if you get involved no matter how good intentioned it might not play out so well.
Harsh times

What happens if the Gardaí are too busy to come? I think by all means call them, but unfortunately they may not come. And offering her help is too risky for the OP. I wish that this was not the case, but it is unfortunately the present reality

One eyed Jack

Antares35 wrote: »

What about someone who is rear ended by a drunk driver and suffers injury because they aren't wearing a seatbelt? Any compensation awarded for pain and suffering will be reduced in accordance with the level of contributory negligence on the part of the claimant i.e. victim in these circumstances, notwithstanding that clearly the defendant who rear ended the victim is obviously at fault. It isn't as black and white as saying "oh someone else is the bad guy therefore I'm completely not accountable at all for my own conduct".

It’s as black and white as saying you’re not responsible for the actions of the drunk driver who rear ended you. That’s about the only similarity I can draw between your analogy and the idea of personal responsibility.

One eyed Jack

One eyed Jack wrote: »

And in those circumstances I’ve no doubt there were plenty of people to point out where you went wrong and what you should have done instead and all the rest of it.

Yup, there were a few... and I was one of them. I tend to consider what I do wrong, and why.. such a strange habit, I know..

Pointing out that you had a personal responsibility for yourself after the fact is kinda missing the point. It’s an incredibly easy thing to do in hindsight to say to someone - “No personal responsibility for your own safety and that’s what happens!”, y’know?

Whereas people are willing to hear about it before it happens to them?

I raised the point about having experience because you were linking blame to responsibility... by having past experience, it's acceptable to be more careful in the future. But...

Absolutely like you said - experience informs our judgement, but if your experience is limited then you’re not in any position to make an informed decision given the lack of experience - getting off your face seemed like a good idea at the time, as did walking home. Obviously to the sober observer your judgement is shìt (not you personally)

Without experience, you can rely on the advice of others... there's a choice there. Which is tied into the perspective of personal responsibility.

(You make China sound like a blast btw )

I was mugged twice in Australia, and someone attempted to mug me in Dublin. The beatings I received in Cork, and Dublin. I've never been mugged in Asia, although I have had my drink spiked, but avoided whatever was planned for me. I was a target of a blackmail scam in Thailand, but since I don't care about my reputation (and nothing was illegal), they had nothing on me.

The only issue with China is the basic scams regarding minor theft. Oh, there is some violent crime against foreigners, but you really have to go looking for it. The usual drunken fights which you'll find anywhere in the world, but since I'm over 6ft, most Chinese will avoid pushing me. So, China hasn't been much of a problem, but then, I did have a lot of experience before I even moved there.

And I'd consider China to be one of the safest countries in the world. As a foreigner. As a Chinese person, not so much.

Akabusi

When i was young maybe 19 or 20 I was left behind after a disco and had to walk 15 miles home on country roads, about half way home a passing car stopped and offered me a lift, it was an older woman who actually went out of her way to drop me to my door. I have no idea of who she was, where she was coming from etc. but have often thought of her kindness that night. The easy thing to do was keep driving.
I have always tried to help others in need since. In most cases, they refuse your help anyway, but its nice to have offered it, a recent example was whilst on my lunch break I came across a woman in the City centre with a flat tyre, I stopped and asked her did she want me to change the tyre for her, she said she was fine that she'd rang someone who was going to come and do it for her.
In this instance, I would have stopped and asked the girl if she was alright or if she needed to have someone called. I wouldn't bring her in my car but If I thought she was in danger in any way I'd ring the guards. I don't think there is a need to be worried about being falsely accused of something through them actions.

Antares35

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It’s as black and white as saying you’re not responsible for the actions of the drunk driver who rear ended you. That’s about the only similarity I can draw between your analogy and the idea of personal responsibility.

Personal responsibility is not "my idea" - it is one that even our legal system recognises - the concept of contributory negligence i.e. that to a certain extent we are responsible for our own actions when it comes to our wellbeing. Stop deliberately muddying the water.

One eyed Jack

Antares35 wrote: »

Personal responsibility is not "my idea" - it is one that even our legal system recognises - the concept of contributory negligence i.e. that to a certain extent we are responsible for our own actions when it comes to our wellbeing. Stop deliberately muddying the water.

I didn’t say it was your idea? I specifically said, and you even quoted it - the idea.

You’re still not responsible for the drunk driver running into the back of you. Whatever circumstances are involved in terms of an award for compensation following an insurance claim is an entirely separate matter. That’s muddying the water.

The White Wolf

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'd have called the Gardaí and let them know. I imagine if I had then asked the Gardaí if I should approach her to see if she's ok, they'd probably tell me not to.

But that's after having the time to put a few minutes thought into it, which the OP didn't really have.

My first thought would be ring the Gards and just keep your distance if you're really worried, until they turn up. When I say really worried, I mean situations where someone is stumbling dangerously close to the canal.

I worked in homeless services for two years and would have been walking the streets regularly enough at night. The one thing I learned and still hold to this day is that you just don't know what type of situation you're walking into when someone is out of it.

It's not just about what someone might accuse you of, but also about the unexpected bursts of violence from someone who looks helpless. I've seen knives pulled ffs! So I would strongly recommend that people don't approach these situations alone.

cena

Isn't it sad we now have to think before helping a lady? Our first thoughts is we could be accused of doing something. It is the times we live in.

cena

cena wrote: »

Isn't it sad we now have to think before helping a lady? Our first thoughts is we could be accused of doing something. It is the times we live in.

You're assuming that she's a lady... I'd consider that to be a rare state of behavior these days. Besides, she'd hardly be staggering around drunk, late at night, if she was a 'lady'.

Yup, indeed, the times we live in.

Kraftwerk

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You're assuming that she's a lady... I'd consider that to be a rare state of behavior these days. Besides, she'd hardly be staggering around drunk, late at night, if she was a 'lady'.

Yup, indeed, the times we live in.

So you complain that "any mention of personal responsibility is victim blaming" and now "she's not a lady if she's drunk".

You're operating on the same wavelength as Bill OReilly when he said "what do they expect walking home alone in short skirts".

partyguinness

Depending on how obviously bad she was I would have pulled over and called the guards but stayed in my car and kept her in view and waited until the guards arrived.

The guards generally will move quick in these situations. A lot easier that a potential missing person hunt the next day.

Kraftwerk

Kraftwerk wrote: »

So you complain that "any mention of personal responsibility is victim blaming" and now "she's not a lady if she's drunk".

You're operating on the same wavelength as Bill OReilly when he said "what do they expect walking home alone in short skirts".

Oh, I get it. We disagree. I feel that a woman shouldn't place herself in a position of danger, just as a man shouldn't. A woman, typically, being weaker and more vulnerable needs to be more aware of her surroundings, and who she's with.

And yes, a woman wearing sexy/revealing clothing in an obviously dangerous area, would be idiotic. In my opinion. That's not to say that I excuse any aggressors. I'm not. However, I do feel that the woman would be responsible for placing herself in that position. Now, doing so, in any normal areas, or situations, then, no... I don't feel that she would be lacking in personal responsibility for what happens. It entirely depends on the individual circumstances.

Just as I have placed myself in danger by being drunk in areas which were known to be dangerous, and I did have trouble. The responsibility is shared.

But I get it. A victim is completely blameless (including her own personal responsibility for her own safety)... and I've had this conversation on boards hundreds of times. I know how it goes, and I have no interest in repeating it.