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Irish businessman stopped from leaving China.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 40,260 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    I'd much rather be on the wrong side of the law here in Ireland than I would in China.

    Edit..... Didn't see ohnonotgmail's post. Myself and ohnonotgmail appear to be on the one wavelength (for once).

    I'm as shocked as you :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭El Tarangu


    Strange case - if I was the guy, I would just sign the plane over, and take my chances - if the plane is in China currently and they want to hang on to it, I imagine that they will keep it anyway. Already two years of his life gone; how great as a proportion of his life will he be willing to give up out of a sense of probity in his company's business dealings?


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,398 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    El Tarangu wrote: »
    Strange case - if I was the guy, I would just sign the plane over, and take my chances - if the plane is in China currently and they want to hang on to it, I imagine that they will keep it anyway. Already two years of his life gone; how great as a proportion of his life will he be willing to give up out of a sense of probity in his company's business dealings?

    He can't apparently because the Irish leasing company that owners the plane has been dissolved that is one of the strange bits of the case.

    It looks like he is being made the fall guy for an elaborate fraud.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,471 ✭✭✭political analyst


    mariaalice wrote: »
    He can't apparently because the Irish leasing company that owners the plane has been dissolved that is one of the strange bits of the case.

    It looks like he is being made the fall guy for an elaborate fraud.

    But the plane has to be owned by some entity.


  • Registered Users Posts: 718 ✭✭✭vidapura


    Ahh I was just thinkin of his family.
    Must a been a bleak Christmas for them.

    And of course, now more prominent news stories have taken centre stage, so god knows when this issue will get any attention again...


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  • Posts: 5,121 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,057 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    vidapura wrote: »
    And of course, now more prominent news stories have taken centre stage, so god knows when this issue will get any attention again...
    With respect, why should it get attention?
    The guy has an option to return to Ireland, but chooses not to.
    I don't see it requiring Dept of Foreign Affairs intervention or anything - why should it?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,471 ✭✭✭political analyst


    With respect, why should it get attention?
    The guy has an option to return to Ireland, but chooses not to.
    I don't see it requiring Dept of Foreign Affairs intervention or anything - why should it?

    He can't - the Chinese court won't let him.


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,260 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    He can't - the Chinese court won't let him.
    won't lift the exit ban until he transfers ownership of the plane to the court - which his lawyers in Ireland says would mean defaulting on an aircraft mortgage and thus breach Irish company law.

    as your own quote says he can get himself released from china. he choses not to.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    as your own quote says he can get himself released from china. he choses not to.

    Is it as simple as him opting not to transfer the plane? I wonder does he have the power to transfer over the plane?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 40,260 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    Is it as simple as him opting not to transfer the plane? I wonder does he have the power to transfer over the plane?

    the information in the OP apparently comes from his lawyers apparently.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,331 ✭✭✭✭dastardly00


    Segment on Prime Time at the moment


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,471 ✭✭✭political analyst


    as your own quote says he can get himself released from china. he choses not to.

    He'd be in breach of Irish company law if he just signed the ownership of the plane away to the Chinese. If you want to know what breaching Irish company law leads to then just ask David Drumm!


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    I think an important aspect of this is the fact there was crowdfunding involved, and average Joe (average Zhou) investors lost their shirts. Chinese stock exchanges are the absolute wild west and are woefully underregulated with fraudulent and shady companies barely audited all over the place.

    There was a huge plunge in shares on Chinese exchanges in 2015/2016 due to crazy speculative investments on sham companies, and it had the potential to destabilize matters politically. The judicial system has been ordered by the party to come down hard on shady financial dealings when regular folks money is involved.

    The fact there is a political imperative coming down from the party to be seen to be dealing with these matters seriously (as opposed to developed financial market regulations) does not bode well for O'Halloran. Their legal system for commercial disputes is all over the place and is of course subject to political whims.

    A lot of foreigners (several notable cases in Shenzhen) got in over their heads with unscrupulous Chinese business partners and are suffering the same fate as the Irishman: exit-ban with no end in sight.

    It's a sad situation and I hope Simon Coveney pulls out all the stops to get him home. Now is the time to pull in political favours, Ireland has never said boo to China and there's no good reason to have him there any longer. Compared to other countries, we're actually not all that economically exposed to China, so we can afford to ruffle their feathers in this case. We're also Security Council members now, so they might take us a bit more seriously than they normally would.


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,260 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    He'd be in breach of Irish company law if he just signed the ownership of the plane away to the Chinese. If you want to know what breaching Irish company law leads to then just ask David Drumm!

    I answered the same question 3 months ago. nothing had changed since then.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    I answered the same question 3 months ago. nothing had changed since then.


    It's my understanding (this is from memory so would need to be double-checked) that he resigned from his role in the company, at the request of the Chinese court bizarrely, but still the exit ban remained in place.


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,260 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Yurt! wrote: »
    I think an important aspect of this is the fact there was crowdfunding involved, and average Joe (average Zhou) investors lost their shirts. Chinese stock exchanges are the absolute wild west and are woefully underregulated with fraudulent and shady companies barely audited all over the place.

    There was a huge plunge in shares on Chinese exchanges in 2015/2016 due to crazy speculative investments on sham companies, and it had the potential to destabilize matters politically. The judicial system has been ordered by the party to come down hard on shady financial dealings when regular folks money is involved.

    The fact there is a political imperative coming down from the party to be seen to be dealing with these matters seriously (as opposed to developed financial market regulations) does not bode well for O'Halloran. Their legal system for commercial disputes is all over the place and is of course subject to political whims.

    A lot of foreigners (several notable cases in Shenzhen) got in over their heads with unscrupulous Chinese business partners and are suffering the same fate as the Irishman: exit-ban with no end in sight.

    It's a sad situation and I hope Simon Coveney pulls out all the stops to get him home. Now is the time to pull in political favours, Ireland has never said boo to China and there's no good reason to have him there any longer. Compared to other countries, we're actually not all that economically exposed to China, so we can afford to ruffle their feathers in this case. We're also Security Council members now, so they might take us a bit more seriously than they normally would.

    If this guy is relying on the irish government to get him out then he should probably start learning chinese assuming he hasn't already done so.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,702 ✭✭✭✭AMKC
    Ms


    What the hell are wrong with the Chinese? Do they want everyone to hate then because that is where this will end up. This poor man has done nothing wrong and yet they have been holding him for 2 years.
    This man actually looked chinese people and China but doing what they are is going to have the opposite effect and he will end up hating them.
    China needs to let this man go now. It's a disgrace that they are holding him like this.

    His poor wife and children. Must be terrible.


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,260 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    AMKC wrote: »
    What the hell are wrong with the Chinese? Do they want everyone to hate then because that is where this will end up. This poor man has done nothing wrong and yet they have been holding him for 2 years.
    This man actually looked chinese people and China but doing what they are is going to have the opposite effect and he will end up hating them.
    China needs to let this man go now. It's a disgrace that they are holding him like this.

    His poor wife and children. Must be terrible.

    I may have this wrong but the company he was an officer of lost millions of dollars invested by chinese people. If that is true then he possibly has done something wrong.
    This man actually looked chinese people and China but doing what they are is going to have the opposite effect and he will end up hating them.
    can you clarify what you meant to type here? it doesn't make much sense.


  • Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    "looked" probably "loved"


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  • Registered Users Posts: 336 ✭✭Captcha


    I may have this wrong but the company he was an officer of lost millions of dollars invested by chinese people. If that is true then he possibly has done something wrong.


    can you clarify what you meant to type here? it doesn't make much sense.

    He joined that company well after the investments happened/went south.

    The CHinese CEO of the company appears to be the person responsible.

    The Irish dude was just an employee who joined the company a long time after the incidents occurred...

    NEVER EVER TRUST THE CHINESE CCP

    It is not a safe place to visit, regardless of what the propaganda will try to fool you into believing.

    I do not exaggerate when I say that if you simply posted online from any country in the world that you support Hong Kong protests, the national security law the Chinese ccp introduced last year means you broke their laws and could face life in prison. This means you could be detained in HK even on a fly-through and spend the rest of your life in prison for simply supporting democracy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    I may have this wrong but the company he was an officer of lost millions of dollars invested by chinese people. If that is true then he possibly has done something wrong.


    can you clarify what you meant to type here? it doesn't make much sense.


    Not even the Chinese prosecutors are alleging any wrongdoing on his part. He and the Irish government are being stonewalled as to who is keeping the exit ban in place.

    It's a sick and sad joke for him and his family, and is a cautionary tale about doing business in a country with no independent judiciary subject to political whims - a place where individuals lives are used as bargaining chips in commercial disputes even when no wrongdoing on that person's part is being alleged. Excitable people in Irish private industry and government salivating at the Chinese market would do well to sit up and take notice at this situation. Doing business with the middle kingdom comes with significant strings attached to it, and when you're not on home turf, cute notions like the scales of justice go out the window.

    The man deserves better than to have a shadow cast over his name in this situation. The Chinese are not the good guys in this scenario.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    As an addendum, when he is dealing with the Chinese judge, there's every chance he's dealing with a powerless stuffed suit - the activities and judgments of court system under Xi has been totally subsumed to the wants and needs of the party. Did a powerful CCP member or someone connected with one lose money on the Chinese businessman's shenanigans? It's speculative, but it's not something that can be ruled out.


  • Registered Users Posts: 336 ✭✭Captcha


    Yurt! wrote: »
    Not even the Chinese prosecutors are alleging any wrongdoing on his part. He and the Irish government are being stonewalled as to who is keeping the exit ban in place.

    It's a sick and sad joke for him and his family, and is a cautionary tale about doing business in a country with no independent judiciary subject to political whims - a place where individuals lives are used as bargaining chips in commercial disputes even when no wrongdoing on that person's part is being alleged. Excitable people in Irish private industry and government salivating at the Chinese market would do well to sit up and take notice at this situation. Doing business with the middle kingdom comes with significant strings attached to it, and when you're not on home turf, cute notions like the scales of justice go out the window.

    The man deserves better than to have a shadow cast over his name in this situation. The Chinese are not the good guys in this scenario.

    Well said...

    There's many many people locked up in this barbaric regimes grasp and faced with exit bans or terrible prison conditions. Thousands or more low profile exit bans and some higher profile ones too...

    The two Michaels from Canada - that situation is an absolute disgrace on Chinas (ccp) part.

    The Australian journalist Cheng Lee

    Jack Ma dissapeared for 3 months when he criticized the chinese regulators

    https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/ex-german-prisoner-exposes-life-in-a-chinese-prison-a-1256413.html
    "He spent a total of seven years and seven months behind bars, a German citizen who witnessed forced labor and torture. He slaved away himself and claims to have been witness to prisoners having their brains "fried," as the convicts call it when guards would apply electrical shocks to inmates' temples."

    Jimmy Lai (editor of Apple Daily) has been arrested AGAIN, this time, while already in prison in Hong Kong by ccp for supporting democracy in HK... the ccp signed an international treaty to uphold HK freedoms and blatantly broke this internationally recognised agreement... The chinese ccp believe they are above the rest of the world and everyone else are stupid barbarians. If we keep doing business while they are in power with China, then we are stupid (greedy) barbarians

    Anyone doing business with this criminal regime is a traitor to good people all over the world.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,369 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    We are only getting his side of what happened in fairness, RTE went all out with the sob story last night but the reality is nobody here knows for sure if he has a case to answer or not.


  • Registered Users Posts: 54,924 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Next to no parties making any issue this

    Guarantee if this was some bogey from the inner city held there for drugs charges or something, you’d have the usual populist party toerags demanding his release..

    Educated, well off, wealthy person.....? fcuk him!!!

    Desperate times for him and his family..


  • Registered Users Posts: 54,924 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    We are only getting his side of what happened in fairness, RTE went all out with the sob story last night but the reality is nobody here knows for sure if he has a case to answer or not.

    I thought this too. But I reckon the man is being stitched up!


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    walshb wrote: »
    Next to no parties making any issue this

    Guarantee if this was some bogey from the inner city held there for drugs charges or something, you’d have the usual populist party toerags demanding his release..

    Educated, well off, wealthy person.....? fcuk him!!!

    Desperate times for him and his family..


    FFS. That's what you take from this?


  • Registered Users Posts: 54,924 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Yurt! wrote: »
    FFS. That's what you take from this?

    Only part!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    walshb wrote: »
    Only part!


    The guy is related to Garret Fitzgerald. The Department of Foreign Affairs have been aware and mobilized on his issue since day 1. Whether that's any use or effective is another matter. Your post was silly and had zero to do with the topic at hand.


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