Cavan v Dublin Semifinal in Navan?

themink

Flukey wrote: »

Dublin have never played a home Championship game in Croke Park. How could they? It is not their home. They have played a lot of games there, but never a home game there. Croke Park is in Dublin, true, but it is not their home. Most matches played in Croke Park don't even involve Dublin, which is a bit odd if it is their home ground. The All-Ireland Hurling semi-finals are on there next weekend. Did an application to play them there have to be submitted to the Dublin County Board? Surely it would have to be, if it is Dublin's home ground. Croke Park is the national stadium, not Dublin's home ground. Do they play there often? Yes they do. No argument there. Whether they have an advantage there is another debate, though I have never seen any evidence that they do. Whatever about that, there is no debate whatsoever that it is not their home ground.

Flukey claiming croke park is not Dublin’s home ground is a bit like if you claimed your home address is still your parents house in Cabra because that was it when you registered to vote 20 years ago.. but you have in fact lived in an apartment in Rathmines that you own with your girlfriend for the last 15 years

rrs

Cavan_King wrote: »

So Dublin have played ten years of League games but played none in their home ground!?

Precisely.

On Parnell they wanted to increase the capacity, but couldn't because of residents I think. Nonetheless with all the the backing and funding, they could have developed a new Ground somewhere.

Flukey

Cavan_King wrote: »

Why do Dublin get special privileges in Croke Park then? If a small crowd is expected for a championship game between two teams, the Hill is closed. It’s always open for Dublin supporters though I believe, why is that?

Dublin don't get any special privileges. Hill 16 is regularly open when Dublin are not playing there. When Dublin are playing there, they don't have exclusive rights to it. There are always other fans on it too. Why is it always open when Dublin play there? That is because of the Parnell Pass. You will know what the Season Ticket is. Dublin have one of those too. What they also have is what is known as the Parnell Pass. The Parnell Pass guarantees free access (though obviously people have to pay for the pass) to all our home games and matches in Croke Park during the League, though not to away games. It also guarantees a ticket for all Championship matches, up to to and including finals, though all of those tickets have to be paid for individually. It guarantees free access to all Dublin club championship games. None of those are ever played in Croke Park. After all, it is not Dublin's home ground. County Finals are played in our home ground, Parnell Park. There are two kinds of passes. The Stand Pass, guarantees a seat for all games it applies to. The Terrace Pass guarantees a terrace place for all games it applies to. So if a match is in Croke Park, then holders of terrace passes are entitled to their place on the terrace, and so Hill 16 is opened. There is your reason.

Fann Linn

rrs wrote: »

Precisely.

On Parnell they wanted to increase the capacity, but couldn't because of residents I think. Nonetheless with all the the backing and funding, they could have developed a new Ground somewhere.

Do ye not think it's preferable to pay rent for the use of HQ rather than borrow millions for another stadium in Dublin.

Cavan_King

Flukey wrote: »

Dublin don't get any special privileges. Hill 16 is regularly open when Dublin are not playing there. When Dublin are playing there, they don't have exclusive rights to it. There are always other fans on it too. Why is it always open when Dublin play there? That is because of the Parnell Pass. You will know what the Season Ticket is. Dublin have one of those too. What they also have is what is known as the Parnell Pass. The Parnell Pass guarantees free access (though obviously people have to pay for the pass) to all our home games and matches in Croke Park during the League, though not to away games. It also guarantees a ticket for all Championship matches, up to to and including finals, though all of those tickets have to be paid for individually. It guarantees free access to all Dublin club championship games. None of those are ever played in Croke Park. After all, it is not Dublin's home ground. County Finals are played in our home ground, Parnell Park. There are two kinds of passes. The Stand Pass, guarantees a seat for all games it applies to. The Terrace Pass guarantees a terrace place for all games it applies to. So if a match is in Croke Park, then holders of terrace passes are entitled to their place on the terrace, and so Hill 16 is opened. There is your reason.

If you note, I said when crowds are small between other counties. I didn’t say it was never opened for other counties. I have heard Leinster supporters from other counties complain that Dublin supporters always get access to cheaper Hill tickets that they sometimes can’t get.

So, let me get this straight, you’re arguing that Croke Park isn’t Dublin’s home ground, yet your season ticket encompasses games being in it!? This gets better by the minute.

I must Cavan season ticket takes into account access to the Hill!

Hammar

Fann Linn wrote: »

Do ye not think it's preferable to pay rent for the use of HQ rather than borrow millions for another stadium in Dublin.

The rest of us have had to pump millions into our grounds, money which we'd have rathered use on coaching ,but we didn't have that option,so why should your county not have to do so??

Fann Linn

Cavan_King wrote: »

So, let me get this straight, you’re arguing that Croke Park isn’t Dublin’s home ground, yet your season ticket encompasses games being in it!? This gets better by the minute.

I must Cavan season ticket takes into account access to the Hill!

It's actually not the third secret of Fatima all of this. The Mayo, Kerry and Tyrone lads are all aware of it Maybe ye should get an induction when you get to Div 1 or AI s/f!!

Cavan_King

Fann Linn wrote: »

It's actually not the third secret of Fatima all of this. The Mayo, Kerry and Tyrone lads are all aware of it Maybe ye should get an induction when you get to Div 1 or AI s/f!!

Like in 2017 or 2019 when we were in Division One!?

Nah, I’ve never bothered looking into the ins and outs of Dublin’s season ticket. Never saw the reason as I’m not a Dublin supporter ya see.

Fann Linn

Hammar wrote: »

The rest of us have had to pump millions into our grounds, money which we'd have rathered use on coaching ,but we didn't have that option,so why should your county not have to do so??

That's a daft reason, put yourself into massive debt when there is a suitable alternative sitting idle.

For Forks Sake

roadmaster wrote: »

Where the floodlights in Navan removed recently ?

https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/1331204381182717956

celt262

Flukey wrote: »

The Parnell Pass guarantees free access (though obviously people have to pay for the pass) to all our home games and matches in Croke Park during the League, though not to away games.

.

Hammar

Fann Linn wrote: »

That's a daft reason, put yourself into massive debt when there is a suitable alternative sitting idle.

Suitable alternative home ground you mean?? It ceases to be a neutral ground then. Perhaps you should put some of that 18 million, youve received since 2003, into building a fit for purpose ground, rather than lazily using the facility, the entire organisation built.

EICVD

munchkin_utd wrote: »

at least if the semi was played at Parnell Park it'd be an unfamiliar ground for both teams

You try to be funny but the Dublin Meath league game was there last month. The Dublin lads who’ve played O’Byrne Cup & minor & U21/20 have. In saying that I now want all Dublin home games in the O’Byrne & underage at Croker, only fair they’re on our home pitch....

Flukey

themink wrote: »

Flukey claiming croke park is not Dublin’s home ground is a bit like if you claimed your home address is still your parents house in Cabra because that was it when you registered to vote 20 years ago.. but you have in fact lived in an apartment in Rathmines that you own with your girlfriend for the last 15 years

You are basing it being our home because we play there often. There is a lot more to what defines a home ground than that and which we don't tick the boxes on. It's in Dublin, you say, which is true. So is Ibrox Glasgow Celtic's home ground because it is in Glasgow? Stamford Bridge has to be Arsenal's home ground, because it is in London, right? Bar the 15 minute warm up before a match, we never train there. We have no access outside of match day. We don't own it. The Dublin County Board is not based there. We don't have exclusive rights to it. Lots of matches, indeed most matches, played there, do not involve Dublin. Many other teams play there very regularly, not once a year, as would be the case with something like a soccer team in a rival venue. So all of our big rivals are regulars there. Can anyone genuinely say that the likes of Kerry, Mayo, Donegal, Tyrone and many others are not very familiar with Croke Park? We have no advantage over them. As I have said several times, why is there no objection to Mayo playing Tipperary there, if greater familiarity with Croke Park is an issue? Double standards apply all the time here.

Over the past two years it was said that a team should not have two Super 8s games in Croke Park, yet not a word of complaint was made when Roscommon played there twice in the Super 8s in 2018 and Cork played two Super 8s games there last year. More double standards it seems. Donegal made the appeal for Dublin not to play there twice last year. They were saying we should have one game there only, like everyone else and then have a home and away game. Imagine though if Donegal drew Dublin and Dublin were given a home game to be played in Parnell Park. Donegal and all their fans would be in outrage about how it was disgraceful to fix it in such a small venue and how their fans would not be able to go. They would be doubly outraged when there was a ground just a couple of miles away, more than capable of taking the crowd. As they say, be careful what you wish for.

I am not for a second denying that Dublin often play there, but it is not their home ground and nobody is ever able to say why it is an advantage to them. They say it is, but never say why. Dublin have been playing there due to crowd sizes. That isn't an issue this year, so I would have no problem moving the semi-finals. Dublin will have the only one true advantage they actually have, which is to have a better team. On that basis, they should beat Cavan wherever the match is played. We can all agree on that.

Cavan_King

Flukey wrote: »

You are basing it being our home because we play there often. There is a lot more to what defines a home ground than that and which we don't tick the boxes on. It's in Dublin, you say, which is true. So is Ibrox Glasgow Celtic's home ground because it is in Glasgow? Stamford Bridge has to be Arsenal's home ground, because it is in London, right? Bar the 15 minute warm up before a match, we never train there. We have no access outside of match day. We don't own it. The Dublin County Board is not based there. We don't have exclusive rights to it. Lots of matches, indeed most matches, played there, do not involve Dublin. Many other teams play there very regularly, not once a year, as would be the case with something like a soccer team in a rival venue. So all of our big rivals are regulars there. Can anyone genuinely say that the likes of Kerry, Mayo, Donegal, Tyrone and many others are not very familiar with Croke Park? We have no advantage over them. As I have said several times, why is there no objection to Mayo playing Tipperary there, if greater familiarity with Croke Park is an issue? Double standards apply all the time here.

Over the past two years it was said that a team should not have two Super 8s games in Croke Park, yet not a word of complaint was made when Roscommon played there twice in the Super 8s in 2018 and Cork played two Super 8s games there last year. More double standards it seems. Donegal made the appeal for Dublin not to play there twice last year. They were saying we should have one game there only, like everyone else and then have a home and away game. Imagine though if Donegal drew Dublin and Dublin were given a home game to be played in Parnell Park. Donegal and all their fans would be in outrage about how it was disgraceful to fix it in such a small venue and how their fans would not be able to go. They would be doubly outraged when there was a ground just a couple of miles away, more than capable of taking the crowd. As they say, be careful what you wish for.

I am not for a second denying that Dublin often play there, but it is not their home ground and nobody is ever able to say why it is an advantage to them. They say it is, but never say why. Dublin have been playing there due to crowd sizes. That isn't an issue this year, so I would have no problem moving the semi-finals. Dublin will have the only one true advantage they actually have, which is to have a better team. On that basis, they should beat Cavan wherever the match is played. We can all agree on that.

The soccer comparison is a null point. Stamford Bridge may be in London but Arsenal don't play 99.9999999% of their games there. They play them at their own home pitch The Emirates. Can you say the same about Dublin?

As for not training there, no county trains on their own main pitch. Would you expect Cavan to train on the main pitch in Breffni or Meath to train on the main pitch in Pairc Tailteann? Again a null point.

No teams plays nearly as much in Croke Park as Dublin, no matter who they are. That means they clearly have an advantage in the stadium.

Familiarity:
a good knowledge of something, or the fact that you know it so well

Flukey

Cavan_King wrote: »

If you note, I said when crowds are small between other counties. I didn’t say it was never opened for other counties. I have heard Leinster supporters from other counties complain that Dublin supporters always get access to cheaper Hill tickets that they sometimes can’t get.

So, let me get this straight, you’re arguing that Croke Park isn’t Dublin’s home ground, yet your season ticket encompasses games being in it!? This gets better by the minute.

I must Cavan season ticket takes into account access to the Hill!

Not the season ticket, the Parnell Pass. They are two separate schemes. The Parnell Pass was in operation long, long before the Season ticket came into existence and long before our games started being moved to Croke Park. There is a terrace and stand pass. Terrace access and stand access applies equally in Parnell Park. Note that it is called the "Parnell" Pass, after our home ground. It also has separate conditions that don't apply to the Dublin Season ticket, or any other season ticket, like the access to club games. The people who get the fullest value for the Parnell Pass are the ones who use it to go to club games for free, as many of us do. As for encompassing other stadiums, the Parnell Pass guarantees us tickets in other stadiums too. Holders of them are entitled to buy one ticket for a Championship game. They have to pay for it though. That is like the Season Ticket. If you have a Cavan one, you can gain access to stadiums other than Breffni Park.

The Parnell Pass only guarantees one ticket, and the Stand ones are always in a block together for Parnell Pass holders only. They are fixed not to a seat, but to a section. That means that one of the disadvantages is that if I wanted to bring a friend or relative who didn't have a pass, I could not get my guaranteed seat and the one beside it. So if I wanted the two of us to sit together, I'd have to buy two seats in a different section and not use my pass at all. Another annoying thing is that we have to go to the Dorset Street Ticket Office to get our match tickets. As a season ticket holder, you can log in and print off a ticket, or scan it at the ground, whereas we have to get the physical ticket at the ticket shop, and only at that ticket shop and not on the day of the match. So if there was a match next Sunday, I might have to go to the ticket office on say, Tuesday, to buy my match ticket if I want to use my Parnell Pass. I can't buy my match ticket online or go to one of the booths on match day to get it like Season Ticket holders can. It's crazy. What makes that a little funnier is that holders can renew their Parnell Pass online each year. Other than that though, all dealings are in person. Madness.

Tombo2001

Flukey wrote: »

First, Croke Park is not Dublin's home ground. Secondly, while people keep saying they have an advantage there, nobody is ever able to say what it is. The best they can come up with is that they are used to it. Lots of counties are very used to playing in Croke Park. It's strange that there is no call to move the Mayo v Tipperary game out of Croke Park, as surely Mayo have an obvious advantage of being very used to playing there. OK, let's say we do move Dublin v Cavan out of Croke Park. We need a venue of a reasonable size and with floodlights. Hey, how about Parnell Park? Oh, sorry, silly me. We can't do that. That would give Dublin home advantage. A neutral stadium would be better, and Croke Park is the best neutral stadium in the country, it being the national stadium of Gaelic Games. Despite Dublin and Mayo being very used to it, Cavan and Tipperary will want to play there, so let them.

I would say its quite simple.

Its a bigger pitch than most with a semi artificial surface that the ball moves faster on.

Much harder to defend on, to play a pressing game on.

No its not Dublins home pitch - but the team plays there 8 or 10 times a year and would rarely play as a team in Parnell park. It gives them all the advantages of being at home.

Same argument does not apply to Mayo, as they play there once or twice a year max.

Flukey

Cavan_King wrote: »

The soccer comparison is a null point. Stamford Bridge may be in London but Arsenal don't play 99.9999999% of their games there. They play them at their own home pitch The Emirates. Can you say the same about Dublin?

As for not training there, no county trains on their own main pitch. Would you expect Cavan to train on the main pitch in Breffni or Meath to train on the main pitch in Pairc Tailteann? Again a null point.

No teams plays nearly as much in Croke Park as Dublin, no matter who they are. That means they clearly have an advantage in the stadium.

Familiarity:
a good knowledge of something, or the fact that you know it so well

Well then you could say familiarity does apply to a lot of counties with Croke Park, not just Dublin. OK, if we take a Premier League team. They play 19 League matches in their ground. Any of their rivals will only play there once. Maybe they might be drawn for a cup game there too, so maybe they might get to play there twice in some years. The home team will also have some cup matches there. So now you are up to say, mid-20s in terms of games there. So, for argument sake, let's say they play 25 games there a year, and their greatest rivals play there once, maybe twice. With League and Championship, Dublin might get say 10 games at max in Croke Park. An All-Ireland Finalist is playing there for at least the third time, often more. Mayo played seven times in Croke Park in 2017, five of those in the Championship. So if we say another county might play five games in Croke Park in a year between League and Championship. So, we have 25 v 1 and 10 v 5. No comparison. Anyway, as I said, can you genuinely say that any of the big GAA powers are not familiar with Croke Park?

Open the Pubs

I don't know the measurements but it seems like it's a much bigger pitch than most others. When Dublin play it's like there is oceans of space everywhere for them.

themink

Flukey wrote: »

You are basing it being our home because we play there often. There is a lot more to what defines a home ground than that and which we don't tick the boxes on. It's in Dublin, you say, which is true. So is Ibrox Glasgow Celtic's home ground because it is in Glasgow? Stamford Bridge has to be Arsenal's home ground, because it is in London, right? Bar the 15 minute warm up before a match, we never train there. We have no access outside of match day. We don't own it. The Dublin County Board is not based there. We don't have exclusive rights to it. Lots of matches, indeed most matches, played there, do not involve Dublin. Many other teams play there very regularly, not once a year, as would be the case with something like a soccer team in a rival venue.

I am not for a second denying that Dublin often play there, but it is not their home ground and nobody is ever able to say why it is an advantage to them. They say it is, but never say why. Dublin have been playing there due to crowd sizes. That isn't an issue this year, so I would have no problem moving the semi-finals. Dublin will have the only one true advantage they actually have, which is to have a better team. On that basis, they should beat Cavan wherever the match is played. We can all agree on that.

Flukey, I agree that Dublin have the much more important advantage of being a far superior team. I don't even really have an opinion on where it should be played and certainly wouldn't be outraged if it's fixed for Croker. But I think you are arguing over the semantics of what an official home ground is rather than the general spirit of the point people are making. If you consider the concept of home advantage rather than getting hung up on what constitutes a home 'ground', I just can't see how it's not so. How do you measure it and how much of a difference does it make is a different question.

To take another analogy, let's say Cavan senior club champions Crosserlough are taking on Ballymun Kickhams and it is fixed for Breffni park in Cavan. Not Crosserlough's home ground technically (don't train there, don't own it etc.) but I would certainly consider it a home advantage because they have played so many games there this year and over the years, players and all their fans can get there easily, etc. Every pitch or ground has little nuances about them that players learn about and become comfortable with the more games they play there. On the other side, would Croke Park be a home advantage for Ballymun? Somewhat because of location and proximity for players, fans and the Dublin county players familiarity.. but also less so because they don't regularly play there. Would Parnell park.. yes for same reasons as Breffni park

Tombo2001

Flukey wrote: »

Well then you could say familiarity does apply to a lot of counties with Croke Park, not just Dublin. OK, if we take a Premier League team. They play 19 League matches in their ground. Any of their rivals will only play there once. Maybe they might be drawn for a cup game there too, so maybe they might get to play there twice in some years. The home team will also have some cup matches there. So now you are up to say, mid-20s in terms of games there. So, for argument sake, let's say they play 25 games there a year, and their greatest rivals play there once, maybe twice. With League and Championship, Dublin might get say 10 games at max in Croke Park. An All-Ireland Finalist is playing there for at least the third time, often more. Mayo played seven times in Croke Park in 2017, five of those in the Championship. So if we say another county might play five games in Croke Park in a year between League and Championship. So, we have 25 v 1 and 10 v 5. No comparison. Anyway, as I said, can you genuinely say that any of the big GAA powers are not familiar with Croke Park?

If you are trying to deny Dublin has a major advantage playing its games in Croke Park, then you are trying to deny what is blindingly obvious.

I'm not going to get bogged down in semantics here.

Some things are just facts.

ArielAtom

Cavan_King wrote: »

I'm sure those Cavan lads want to play where they have the best competitive chance of winning. Nobody thought they'd beat Monaghan, Donegal or even Down, but as Conor Madden said ''wrote off but that's the way we like it''.

I'd also imagine that their manager has asked them for their thoughts on it ahead of saying he wants it moved.

You might think they're stupid but I'm sure those lads think they'll play in Croke Park in the final.

Would you be for it being played in Pairc Ui Caoimh, good surface, good facilities, floodlights, required number of dressing rooms? No advantage to either team.

Tombo2001

Open the Pubs wrote: »

I don't know the measurements but it seems like it's a much bigger pitch than most others. When Dublin play it's like there is oceans of space everywhere for them.

It seems to me that pitches in Tipp and Kilkenny are a bit bigger. Croke Park is the same size as these. Hurling pitches.

The likes of Breffni, Clones and so on are about 3 or 4 metres shorter, and the ball is much slower.

tobefrank321

Its just as ridiculous and more so to play Mayo vs Tipp in Croke Park, bringing both teams 2-3 hours from home, overnight stays and so on to play on front of an empty stadium. Particularly when it comes to covid when teams shouldn't be travelling in the same bus.

But the GAA are experts at ridiculous situations, always have been.

Cavan_King

ArielAtom wrote: »

Would you be for it being played in Pairc Ui Caoimh, good surface, good facilities, floodlights, required number of dressing rooms? No advantage to either team.

Don’t see the point in going that far to be honest. There are closer options for both teams.

ArielAtom

Cavan_King wrote: »

Don’t see the point in going that far to be honest. There are closer options for both teams.

Where is closer and has the required facilities as I've mentioned?

Hammar

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Its just as ridiculous and more so to play Mayo vs Tipp in Croke Park, bringing both teams 2-3 hours from home, overnight stays and so on to play on front of an empty stadium. Particularly when it comes to covid when teams shouldn't be travelling in the same bus.

But the GAA are experts at ridiculous situations, always have been.

Overnight stays may not exactly be an option either depending on what restrictions are in place ....

tanko

ArielAtom wrote: »

Where is closer and has the required facilities as I've mentioned?

Breffni Park

Hammar

ArielAtom wrote: »

Where is closer and has the required facilities as I've mentioned?

Athletic Grounds in Armagh.

Cavan_King

ArielAtom wrote: »

Where is closer and has the required facilities as I've mentioned?

Mullingar? Portlaoise?