Work life balance in the USA

The Floyd p

JustAThought must be on commission from some USA multinationals with the amount of gross generalisations they're making about how the USA is this paradise with low crime, wonderful employers and superb tourist destinations.

Sounds like something you'd hear in an advertisement from the USA tourism board ffs.

Invidious

The Floyd p wrote: »

JustAThought must be on commission from some USA multinationals with the amount of gross generalisations they're making about how the USA is this paradise with low crime, wonderful employers and superb tourist destinations.

As opposed to the gross generalizations about how the US is some kind of dystopian hellhole.

Crime in the US is highly correlated with income, race, the drug trade, etc. There are very safe areas, and then there are very unsafe areas.

Wonderful employers? The US has many, just as it has bad employers. US companies are probably more aggressive when it comes to weeding out under-performing employees ... but that's a good thing for everyone else.

Superb tourist destinations? Of course it has those. Millions of people go to the US in a normal year, including thousands of Irish people.

NSAman

ShatterAlan wrote: »

I always hear the "America's not perfect but no country is..." trope when you point out the glaringly obvious shortcomings of the place.


Never any acknowledgement or attempt to address the very addressable shortcomings. This bollocks of you work 9 to 5 but god forbid you stick to that and don't devote your every waking hour to the poxy job is pathetic.


And 10 days holiday a year is Dickensian. The French with their shorter work week and generous holiday allowance are actually 16% more productive than American workers.

I'm sure you are a shining employee.

Like I said no place is utopia. If you know somewhere that is, please inform us all.

I enjoy my work here, as I'm sure my employees do too. I doubt with your obvious attitude you would fit in here.

ShatterAlan

Invidious wrote: »

I'd prefer a big smile and a welcome to a surly grimace from some bored shop assistant who couldn't care less about helping me.

I'd prefer a smile if they meant it. I'd prefer honesty over fakery.


And a surly grimace isn't the only alternative to phoney bubbliness.


A simple "Can I help you sir/mate?" with perhaps a raised eyebrow works for me.

ShatterAlan

JustAThought wrote: »

And massive in America is something else.

Ofd because I was asking about
mortages and I understood that property tax, and federal taxes for the duration of the mortgage were things that were typically automatically factored in as port of the mortgage borrowing - thou no doubt companies are different.

At least over there if your tenant dosn’t pay the rent they can’t sit in your house for two years running up bills and rent debts they will never lay - police in, 2 day eviction - freeloaders out. I guess thats part of the services they get for their taxes - an efficient, functioning police system and consequences for breaking the law or contracts.

I’d love to see the gaurds policing the streets here, or taking criminals to task. or arresting half I’Connell St for drug dealing or defecating or shooting up on the footpath. I guess thats why so many of American towns and main thoroughfares are so clean, feel safe and are
pleasant places to be. Unlike the dark hole that is much of Dublin city centre.

You're looking at the place through rose-tinted spectacles and cherry picking the good. There are countless areas in the US that would make O'Connell Street look like the finest thoroughfare in Singapore. I lived there for 7 years. Worked in Manhattan. Some parts of the city looked and smelt like Calcutta. I've also visited sterile, cookie-cutter Stepford Wives cities like Reston, Virginia where everyone looks the same. All government type employees with Polo shirts and Chinos and identical non-descript haircuts. Even the dive bar lacked character. A testament to blandness.


And this thread isn't really about comparing the US to Ireland. But I suppose that can be unavoidable. Take public transport in the US. It's the pits. Uncomfortable, unreliable and in some cases dangerous due to bus or train drivers being so overworked that they fall asleep at the wheel. People would harp on about how the Long Island Rail Road was the epitome of luxury because the seat had cushions rather than the McDonald's style plastic seating that you get on the New York subway. The usual response to this is that "America is so rich that everyone has a fancy car and doesn't need public transport". What bollocks. You could be a wealthy commuter in New York and still have to endure appalling public transport compared to your counterparts in Berlin or Stockholm or Tokyo.

riclad

i,d prefer the irish attititude, honest conversation if they want to speak to me,
rather than staff being trained to say have a nice day to everyone who comes into the shop.
Also some places in america expect to get tips so they will tend to be very polite to everyone they serve.
i prefer staff to be honest than people who are trained to pretend to be delighted to see anyone who might spend a few dollars in the business

Invidious

ShatterAlan wrote: »

And this thread isn't really about comparing the US to Ireland. But I suppose that can be unavoidable. Take public transport in the US. It's the pits.

Is Irish public transport anything to get excited about?

Every country has its good points and bad points. You seem incapable of acknowledging anything good about the USA — fair enough, but your biases are glaringly obvious.

Alejandro68

What is the allure of the USA?I have never been but always wanted to be the tourist. I never thought of living there as it doesn't appeal to me to. Now London, that is my dream.

Invidious

Invidious wrote: »

Wonderful employers? The US has many, just as it has bad employers. US companies are probably more aggressive when it comes to weeding out under-performing employees ... but that's a good thing for everyone else.
.

It's not really as it puts everybody under more pressure. And besides all that the worry of financial ruin is very common over there, particularly if there are any health issues. The low number of days off is horrible too.

It is great for people who have made their millions. Very little of that is being made in the young generation though. Millennials own 4% of the wealth, and the oldest millennial are now pushing 40.

So maybe a generation ago Ireland was worth leaving for a normal job in the US, now it isnt. Unless you are top level IT, it isnt worth it.

riclad wrote: »

i,d prefer the irish attititude, honest conversation if they want to speak to me,
rather than staff being trained to say have a nice day to everyone who comes into the shop.
Also some places in america expect to get tips so they will tend to be very polite to everyone they serve.
i prefer staff to be honest than people who are trained to pretend to be delighted to see anyone who might spend a few dollars in the business

On the other hand the least bad thing about the US is friendly staff.

Alejandro68

Alejandro68 wrote: »

What is the allure of the USA?I have never been but always wanted to be the tourist. I never thought of living there as it doesn't appeal to me to. Now London, that is my dream.

The US is a great tourist destination all the same. Do you mean London to live in? Thats not all wine and roses either.

Doylers

I'm in Canada had two jobs in the last two years. First job was 15 days leave a year, second was 21 days. It's all up for negotiation just never forget that. They don't want to give you an extra 10K? Fine get 5 more days off etc.

ShatterAlan

Nermal wrote: »

People simply don't realise this. This difference is not explained by health insurance, or longer working hours. Living standards are vastly higher in the US, full stop.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-britain-is-poorer-than-any-us-state-other-than-mississippi

Higher than where? Mexico? Bangladesh? Eritrea?


The US doesn't even make the top 10 in Quality of Life rankings and is barely in the top 20 on the Happiness Index.

Invidious

Deleted User wrote: »

It's not really as it puts everybody under more pressure. And besides all that the worry of financial ruin is very common over there, particularly if there are any health issues. The low number of days off is horrible too.

It is great for people who have made their millions. Very little of that is being made in the young generation though. Millennials own 4% of the wealth, and the oldest millennial are now pushing 40.

So maybe a generation ago Ireland was worth leaving for a normal job in the US, now it isnt. Unless you are top level IT, it isnt worth it.



On the other hand the least bad thing about the US is friendly staff.

Financial issues cause people endless worry in Ireland too, from what I see. Just look back to 2008-12 when the state of the economy was all anyone could talk about. There's now a whole generation growing up wondering if they'll ever be able to buy their own home.

In the US, the number of days off typically increases with seniority. And I'm sure many of those millennials will eventually benefit from large inheritances. How much wealth do they expect in their 20s and 30s?

In the past generation, American multinationals have brought over 100,000 jobs directly to Ireland, so Irish people don't have to go over there for them. That said, if you're an ambitious, motivated person, there are a lot more rewards in the US than in Ireland, such as higher wages, lower taxes, better schools and universities for children, and more affordable homes in many parts of the country.

ShatterAlan

NSAman wrote: »

I'm sure you are a shining employee.

Like I said no place is utopia. If you know somewhere that is, please inform us all.

I enjoy my work here, as I'm sure my employees do too. I doubt with your obvious attitude you would fit in here.

Anecdotal evidence is no yardstick.


Can you live on minimum wage in the US? Simple answer is NO.


45% of Americans cannot come up with $400 in the event of an emergency.



In America there a people paying off student loans into their 40's and 50's. Some never clear the debt. A lifetime of penury for a useless degree in criminal justice or social studies.

ShatterAlan

Invidious wrote: »

Is Irish public transport anything to get excited about?

Every country has its good points and bad points. You seem incapable of acknowledging anything good about the USA — fair enough, but your biases are glaringly obvious.

People are talking about the quality of life and standards of living in the US and how they are the best.


They're not. Not even close and I'm simply pointing that out.


It's very easy to point out certain aspects while conveniently ignoring the obvious failings.


And people also point out amazing scenery as if a natural phenomenon is somehow a testament to American greatness like the American people built the Rocky Mountains or the beaches of Cape Cod.

Invidious

ShatterAlan wrote: »

People are talking about the quality of life and standards of living in the US and how they are the best.

A highly educated and motivated person can achieve better living standards and higher quality of life in the US than almost anywhere else.

And people also point out amazing scenery as if a natural phenomenon is somehow a testament to American greatness like the American people built the Rocky Mountains or the beaches of Cape Cod.

Exactly the same could be said about the Cliffs of Moher or the Ring of Kerry, and yet the Irish proudly talk about their beautiful scenery in much the same way.

blaze1

SharpshooterTom wrote: »

I've long considered wanting to move to the US at some point in my life. I recognise it has some serious flaws, but my main gripe about the country is with the lack of annual leave the US (and Canada) both have. Am I right in saying the US has NO guaranteed paid leave whatsoever and it has be negotiated with an employer before hand? I also read that approximately 25% of Americans don't get ANY paid leave whatsoever? I think the average American only gets just 10 days off a year? In Canada its not much better either with 2 weeks only (and wages are also lower than the US).

AUS/NZ appear to have a similar work-life balance to that of Ireland/UK by contrast. A minimum of 4-5 weeks plus an extra 10-13 paid days for public holidays which is a pretty good deal, so I'm open to moving there also. But the lack of paid work leave is a bit of a drag about North America. I'd be ok with 3 weeks but 10 days or less would depress me.

I was due to make the move over at the start of the year with an Irish company, at the start it was due to be same benefits - 23 days per year with the 10-13 public holidays in the US. Turns out as no one on the US team was taking anywhere near that, they made the US team go to 15 days. Public holidays from what I hear, you would be lucky to get half of them, they vary from state to state. I think most places on give Federal days. Healthcare is also ridiculous. I would look to OZ/NZ if the chance came up.

NSAman

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Can you live on minimum wage in Ireland? Simple answer is NO.

Fixed that for ya!

Invidious

Invidious wrote: »

Financial issues cause people endless worry in Ireland too, from what I see. Just look back to 2008-12 when the state of the economy was all anyone could talk about. There's now a whole generation growing up wondering if they'll ever be able to buy their own home.

In the US far more houses were taken by banks. And I see you didn't mention health. That hangs over everybody. Even the upper middle class.

In the US, the number of days off typically increases with seniority.

It increases with length of time working of course, but that is a disincentive to leave a company ( or you fall is back to 10).

And I'm sure many of those millennials will eventually benefit from large inheritances. How much wealth do they expect in their 20s and 30s?

Well their parents had 25% or so of the wealth in their time. Believe it or not the old used to be poorer than the young and middle aged.

That said, if you're an ambitious, motivated person, there are a lot more rewards in the US than in Ireland, such as higher wages, lower taxes, better schools and universities for children, and more affordable homes in many parts of the country.

Where people would normally go i.e. California or New York, the wages are higher, but the sum take of all taxes largely the same, the schools can be abysmal, and the houses are not affordable. Universities are expensive. and in general probably over-rated.

JustAThought

The Floyd p wrote: »

JustAThought must be on commission from some USA multinationals with the amount of gross generalisations they're making about how the USA is this paradise with low crime, wonderful employers and superb tourist destinations.

Sounds like something you'd hear in an advertisement from the USA tourism board ffs.

!!! No - and Im well aware of its negatives and was amongst the first to point out the importance of good benefits in terms of medical. But I see posters here putting such nonsense about that it makes me wonder why they are determined to stop the OP from taking a break and following his/her dream. I’ve worked there as I have repeatedly said and have friends and family long time living there - all of whom have good work benefits, have had health issues but had them covered through work bar one who fell as she left her workplace after being fired (not covered 4k bill for ambulance :0). And all take holidays - paid ones. None have been shot or murdered or victims of crime - and they live in beautiful homes and have great lifeatyles. The begrudgery and scaremongering on the thread is shocking - its like tall poppy syndrome - scythe down the person who dares to dream and put them off so they will be in the same spot as everyone else - including the self professed carer and self professed long term unemployed who are loudest in talking about violence and frightening the OP off. His question was about jobs and holidays - not the lunacy of trump and black lives matter protests by whites.

Most of the people I know who emigrated to the states regardless of whether they had third level education or not or whether they started as labourers, truck drivers, working for insurance companies, banks, multinationals or in design or have all great jobs, great careers, great prospects, pensions, steady jobs and all take multiple holidays every year.

& yes - driveby shootings happen, there is a drug problem, there is a politics problem , and black lives matter - there are lots of threads for that - this is one about work opportunity in the usa & holiday time. OP will wonder all his/her life if they missed the boat and a big opportunity in not going
becUse of fearmongering on the internet and people with experience of
working there jot saying what a great Nd totally different experience it is - for experienced professionals - and how incredibly well paid and lowly taxed you are as a professional
worker. Particularly in comparison to the bull**** you often have to put up with here.

And despite everything NOBODY I know has emigrated back here - not by themselves, not after they got married, not even when they hd kids. They all say the same
things - career, community and quality of life - they know there is absolutely no way they will have anything like what they have in the states back here. And so they stay, take holidays back home, can afford for one to work and one to be a stay at home mother and have beautiful house in NY, can afford to send one parent over for the two month summer holidays to visit the grandparents and not bat an eye . And these are ordinary working in mangement or owning their own SME level people - not IT start ups, not IT geniuses -
just ordinary Irish people who took a chance and took a risk and made a better life for
themselves. Why work so hard to put the OP off his/her short term dream after all the sacrifices they have already made.

JustAThought

JustAThought wrote: »

Most of the people I know who emigrated to the states regardless of whether they had third level education or not or whether they started as labourers, truck drivers, working for insurance companies, banks, multinationals or in design or have all great jobs, great careers, great prospects, pensions, steady jobs and all take multiple holidays every year.
.

You said that, but it's a bit dubious that Irish people could in fact emigrate to do those kind of jobs in the last few decades, unless they won some kind of diversity lottery.

There are parts of the US where a normal salary can go a long way though, but Irish people tend not to immigrate there.

ShatterAlan

Invidious wrote: »

A highly educated and motivated person can achieve better living standards and higher quality of life in the US than almost anywhere else.



Exactly the same could be said about the Cliffs of Moher or the Ring of Kerry, and yet the Irish proudly talk about their beautiful scenery in much the same way.

Can they though?


We're talking about work life balance here. This notion of if you work hard you'll have a great life in America is just not true. US workers work longer hours with less free time than practically all other OECD countries. Wages are stagnant and have been so since the 1970's.

And if you lose your job what kind of safety net is there? Do you get paid maternity / paternity leave in the US? Maybe some companies throw their employees a bone of a paltry few weeks but they are the exception. You get paid to go to college in Denmark. You are charged tens of thousands of dollars for a college education in America that is probably on a par with the Leaving Cert...ORDINARY LEVEL.


I had friends in the US who I had to help with the Mathematics module of their degrees. I was teaching them simultaneous equations for fcuks sake. You know, the sh1t you do for the Junior Cert in Ireland. What the hell were they learning at the age of 15 in high school? Their times tables?


Forget about the 1%. If you can make $20 million a year in New York whereas only £13 million in London what's the difference. Either party has it made and won't ever have to worry about money. But if you drop down to the middle class or working class that's where you see the differences. A waitress or barmaid in say Amsterdam can have a decent life whilst just working the one job. Paid holidays, health coverage, affordable rent, good amenities and infrastructure. In the US that is beyond reach. She would have to work 2 or maybe 3 jobs to make ends meet. If the bar/restaurant in Amsterdam is having a slow night the waitress is bored. In America she suffers financially and might not even have enough to cover the week's bills.


Do you think that American manufacturing workers have it better than their German counterparts? Not a chance. And teachers in America get the royal shaft. They're treated like shit by government and parents alike. I've read stories of them having to donate blood for extra money.



I know I bemoan anecdotal evidence and isolated case but I'll break my own rule and accept the consequences. I was working in IT in New York and earning $70k 20 years ago. Not bad for a 20 something. So after tax I was taking home about $3800/3900 a month. My rent was low so after bills like rent, car insturance, commuter rail ticket were paid I was down to about $2600 per month disposable income. I had health coverage with the job but it was a fairly meagre plan with no dental. I was then offered a job in the Netherlands. Same type of job except a lot less hours, twice the amount of holidays. I had a fully furnished all inclusive apartment on a canal, no need for that car...exceptional transport network to get to work. After bills were paid I had nearly 5500 euros disposable income each month.

JustAThought

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You said that, but it's a bit dubious that Irish people could in fact emigrate to do those kind of jobs in the last few decades, unless they won some kind of diversity lottery.

There are parts of the US where a normal salary can go a long way though, but Irish people tend not to immigrate there.

simple really - JI, green card, citizenship. In the mid 1990s and early 2000 that was the route. And now its do postgrad here - on your grant - and avail of the recriprocal 18 month ‘free’ visa for recent grads scheme or for oldies get a transfer after 3 years in management to stateside.

Or family visa sponsorship from a naturalised family member who will vouch for you.

There are lots of other categories of visas you can (now) apply for but they were the ‘easy’ routes back then mostly used. Marrying and applying for residency also worked ( when genuine - not Thai bride or Vegas night style!)

Trump has of course changed a lot and Biden mY be cancelling Ll that now, but the postgrad & 18
months visa or J1 or Irish transfer from a multinational are still well trodden routes. Last
time I looked about a year ago the family sponsorship was still available for Irish. Plenty left
off their desirable list but we are still holding strong.

ShatterAlan

blaze1 wrote: »

I was due to make the move over at the start of the year with an Irish company, at the start it was due to be same benefits - 23 days per year with the 10-13 public holidays in the US. Turns out as no one on the US team was taking anywhere near that, they made the US team go to 15 days. Public holidays from what I hear, you would be lucky to get half of them, they vary from state to state. I think most places on give Federal days. Healthcare is also ridiculous. I would look to OZ/NZ if the chance came up.

There's only 7 public holidays in the US IIRC. You're back at work on the 26th of December FFS.

JustAThought

JustAThought wrote: »

simple really - JI, green card, citizenship. .

J1 to Green card? Is that possible?

I was a h1b over there and I didn't get a green card. But then I didn't apply.

JustAThought

ShatterAlan wrote: »

There's only 7 public holidays in the US IIRC. You're back at work on the 26th of December FFS.

why did you stay in america so long shatter as you clearly hated and despised it aNd everyone in it and seemed to have such a rubbish job in a dreadful & deadly & filthy area?

chrissb8

JustAThought wrote: »

why did you stay in america so long shatter as you clearly hated and despised it aNd everyone in it and seemed to have such a rubbish job in a dreadful & deadly & filthy area?

Experience? A good try at living another a life before Shatter decided against it and thought he could get better?

I'm sure he's not the first one to see things in hindsight in his life and maybe now he has a perspective because he lived somewhere else afterwards that showed a better way of living (Amsterdam).

Move to America if you want. But this whole notion of every country has its issues is a fallacy. America is a failure in too many regards riddled with issues and a very obviously inferior standard of living.

You say living is having X, Y, Z. I say living is having a realistic chance of succeeding, and even if you don't succeed you aren't punished for it.

There is no world where the pros of living in a America matches a place like Western Europe, and certainly no way in hell the weighing scales tip even, in regards to the cons.

ShatterAlan

Deleted User wrote: »

J1 to Green card? Is that possible?

I was a h1b over there and I didn't get a green card. But then I didn't apply.

You cannot just get a green card. The easiest route in the past was the Green Card lottery (Donnelly / Morrison visas) apart from that there is no way to just rock up to the US and get a job legally. If you are the offspring of a citizen you qualify for a Green Card. If you marry a US citizen you can apply for Green Card status but that can take years. The J1 visa is a once off work permit that allows you to work in the States if you are a student and it lasts about four or five months maximum. There is no path from J1 to Green Card.


The H1B visa IIRC allows you to work for 2 years but only with the one company. If the job sucks and they treat you like crap and you quit then pack your bags and get on a plane because you aren't eligible to work anywhere else.


I've never heard of a citizen / resident simply being able to sponsor you.

JustAThought

we are all aware that you cannot just ‘get’ a
green card - there is a process and yes - incredible to imagine - you do actually have to apply for one for a chance to be granted one.

A naturalised American citizen can sponsor a family member - or used to be able to
up to the last time I looked - so for example my (Irish) sibling who applied for, did the test, swore the oath, passed all the scrutiny and and was
granted citizenship can apply to sponsor me. as
could my first cousin who married an american etc There are other family visa types (or used be) but these stuck for me as both would work. Different rules for different nationalities and u18’s,
step children etc - they are thorough.

Shatter - you still havn’t mentioned
why you stayed in america for seven years, a
country and people whom you clearly hated and despised and which you have nothing good to say about.Why did you choose to stay and torture yourself? Planes fly both ways.

ShatterAlan

JustAThought wrote: »

why did you stay in america so long shatter as you clearly hated and despised it aNd everyone in it and seemed to have such a rubbish job in a dreadful & deadly & filthy area?

I didn't know any better at the time. Working and living in other countries opened my eyes up to how the place is not all it's cracked up to be.


It was fun when I was younger. I didn't despise the place OR the people. I had a nice job, a girlfriend (who turned out to be a wacko, but that's a different story) a nice circle of friends, etc. But you can have that anywhere. The US doesn't have a monopoly on these basic human comforts. Looking back I wouldn't have spent as long as I did there. I held out for citizenship but once that came through and I left the place I had no desire to return. Everytime I go back I feel this overwhelming weight of the state bearing down on everyone. Petty rules, people in uniform everywhere on their own power trips just itching to give someone a hard time, sit under a tree reading a book in a park or walk around taking photographs and you can almost be sure that someone will call the cops on you because this is not "normal behaviour" and you look "suspicious" and of course the cop will demand ID, obscene displays of military prowess and plastic patriotism when I just want to watch a few guys hit a ball with a stick and run around a field, stupid laws like having to produce age verification to enter a bar and get a beer even though you look like Gandalf, seething racism, the all-too-quick way that they say "fuck him" when someone is unlucky, the lack of awareness of anything going on in the world outside their own borders felt stifling



I enjoyed my weekends going out in Manhattan. I loved things like diners and delis and I loved the Chinese food in NY. I enjoyed taking road trips up to New England and staying in seedy little motels. I've been in 20 states and to be honest they almost all look the same. Of course Colorado is going to look a lot different to Texas but leaving aside temperature and scenery the homogeneity of the place was boring.