England v Ireland Autumn Nations Cup | 21.11.20 KO 15:00 | RTE 1 Read Post #5

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

Byrne standing deep, with Aki and Farrell outside him receiving the ball standing still, neither an elusive runner, neither one going to unlock any defence with their passing ability.

Passing deep with two bosh merchants in the centre, I genuinely hope that this was not the tactics dictated by the coaches.

I think it was more the default setting for those individuals than the plan. Byrne, for example, is never going to be a 10 that threatens the line, no matter what his coaches want from him.

molloyjh

molloyjh wrote: »

I think it was more the default setting for those individuals than the plan. Byrne, for example, is never going to be a 10 that threatens the line, no matter what his coaches want from him.

Maybe I'm mistaken but I feel Byrne plays a lot flatter for Leinster.

His decision making yesterday (in particular when we didn't kick) constantly cost us territory without ever giving up the ball.

Combine that with our back three rarely getting involved outside of gathering English kicks and there is a problem that is either a Ross Byrne shaped one or a Mike Catt shaped one or both.

Byrne has been in camp long enough - maybe he just had a howler yesterday but I presume he was following the game plan.

We'll know more as selections continue through the tournament.

clsmooth

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Maybe I'm mistaken but I feel Byrne plays a lot flatter for Leinster.

Definitely does but then you have to factor in the lack of go forward ball too. Hard to play anyway flat off slow ball against a rush defence. The issue was that when we did get a bit of go forward ball we seemed too slow to recycle and take advantage. The Earls break in the first half is a good example. Ended up getting turned over though which was very disappointing.

First Up

theVersatile wrote:

Keenan was beaten in the air for the first try

I stand corrected.

So in that case Lowe's defence was OK, and he couldn't do much with the crumbs he had to work with in attack.

Taking him off wouldn't have helped. The problems were inside - at 10 mostly. I have always liked Ross Byrne but he was awful yesterday

Skyfloater

Was there some reason Byrne never tried a chip kick over the onrushing English defense? When your opposite outhalf only ever shovels the ball to his centres, it's easy to bunch together and double tackle Aki or Farrell.

bilston

First Up wrote: »

I stand corrected.

So in that case Lowe's defence was OK, and he couldn't do much with the crumbs he had to work with in attack.

Taking him off wouldn't have helped. The problems were inside - at 10 mostly. I have always liked Ross Byrne but he was awful yesterday

I think to be fair to Byrne you have to look at the half backs as a package. Gibson Park had a tough afternoon which in turn makes it hard for the 10.

Burns had a decent little 8 minute cameo, or however long it was, but then he had a British and Irish Lion at scrum half serving him the ball.

bilston

Skyfloater wrote: »

Was there some reason Byrne never tried a chip kick over the onrushing English defense? When your opposite outhalf only ever shovels the ball to his centres, it's easy to bunch together and double tackle Aki or Farrell.

My memory of the period prior to England's first try was that we kicked the ball everyone we got it. Then as soon as they scored we cut that tactic almost completely.

First Up

bilston wrote:

I think to be fair to Byrne you have to look at the half backs as a package. Gibson Park had a tough afternoon which in turn makes it hard for the 10.

I thought JBK's service was crisp enough and he also threw good passes to Earl's and Lowe running at pace. Byrne wasn't giving him that option.

bilston wrote:

Burns had a decent little 8 minute cameo, or however long it was, but then he had a British and Irish Lion at scrum half serving him the ball.

Murray and Burns looked sharper for sure, for whatever reason.

Burkie1203

guapos wrote: »

Think it was keenan who was beaten in the air. In hindsight he should have stepped back and waited for him to land

May had a massive advantage of being on the outside and having a run up. Keenan made a split second decision. On another day he might have got a hand in to disrupt the ball etc.

beggars_bush

Burkie1203 wrote: »

May had a massive advantage of being on the outside and having a run up. Keenan made a split second decision. On another day he might have got a hand in to disrupt the ball etc.

Keenan's starting position and jumping start were very poor

Anyway, we need to quickly develop a way to move the ball before the chop tackle that England, Wales and France use

Pudsy33

beggars_bush wrote: »

Keenan's starting position and jumping start were very poor

Anyway, we need to quickly develop a way to move the ball before the chop tackle that England, Wales and France use

Is this tackle strictly legal? I was wondering this myself and noticed a few comments about it on the match thread. Seems to be very little arms involved.

lawrencesummers

As much as Byrnes ability if attack is being slated we should acknowledge the solid defensive work he did. His tackling was excellent and he answered very well the questions that were asked of him in this regard.

As far as Keenan I think he should be absolutely hammered in the video review for taking the carry that lead to the turnover after Earls made a Break. Keenan shouldn’t have been anywhere near looking for a carry at that instance. He killed our best attacking opportunity in that half.

TomsOnTheRoof

Pudsy33 wrote: »

Is this tackle strictly legal? I was wondering this myself and noticed a few comments about it on the match thread. Seems to be very little arms involved.

Dependent on whether an attempt is made to wrap the arms. Quite a few yesterday were just shoulder barges on shins and knees. Of course even if they are illegal you still need the officiating team to call it. Neither Gauzere or Owens were interested in calling anything yesterday unless they were certain it was completely immaterial..

lawred2

Pudsy33 wrote: »

Is this tackle strictly legal? I was wondering this myself and noticed a few comments about it on the match thread. Seems to be very little arms involved.

it's a full body trip at momentum with no hands whatsoever...

Dubinusa

Johnny May is world class and very experienced. Keenan will hopefully learn from that mistake.
One problem I see is that for years we get into the attacking 1/3 of the field and we have no idea how to open up the top defenses.
Wales a few years back, we spent enormous energy and possession in the 22 and went nowhere. France in Paris. We dominated the 1st half, had possession in the 22 and failed to convert. We lost 10-9.
It is an ongoing issue. Farrell and Catt have to revise our attacking strategy in the red zone. If not, we'll come up short against the better sides.

ionadnapokot

lawrencesummers wrote: »

As much as Byrnes ability if attack is being slated we should acknowledge the solid defensive work he did. His tackling was excellent and he answered very well the questions that were asked of him in this regard.

As far as Keenan I think he should be absolutely hammered in the video review for taking the carry that lead to the turnover after Earls made a Break. Keenan shouldn’t have been anywhere near looking for a carry at that instance. He killed our best attacking opportunity in that half.

God point on Byrne. He made some cracking tackles

Yes It should be pointed out to Keenan.
Hammered...not sure. System failure?
I need to watch it back again to see why he ended up there.

Eddie O’Sullivan made a great point after Heaslip was finished with his generic babble and talk of the Ffffflippin Monday morning review.

“The question here isn’t the review it’s the players asking the coaches can you give us a game plan that might work”

First Up

ionadnapokot wrote: »

God point on Byrne. He made some cracking tackles

Yes It should be pointed out to Keenan.
Hammered...not sure. System failure?
I need to watch it back again to see why he ended up there.

Eddie O’Sullivan made a great point after Heaslip was finished with his generic babble and talk of the Ffffflippin Monday morning review.

“The question here isn’t the review it’s the players asking the coaches can you give us a game plan that might work”

Byrne tackled well but we had twice as much possession as England, so two thirds of his job was supposed to be attacking, not defending.

Both Heaslip and O'Sullivan had a point. I'd be interested to hear Farrell's rationale for not changing his tactics after we had hit the first twenty or so brick walls.

Paul Weller

First Up wrote: »

Both Heaslip and O'Sullivan had a point. I'd be interested to hear Farrell's rationale for not changing his tactics after we had hit the first twenty or so brick walls.

If at first you don't succeed.....

ionadnapokot

First Up wrote: »

Byrne tackled well but we had twice as much possession as England, so two thirds of his job was supposed to be attacking, not defending.

Both Heaslip and O'Sullivan had a point. I'd be interested to hear Farrell's rationale for not changing his tactics after we had hit the first twenty or so brick walls.

Yes completely re:Byrne tackling requirement. It’s something good worth been pointed out considering he stopped some powerful carriers.

What I wouldn’t give to be a fly on the wall of Farrell’s video reviews.
The amount of shi1te talked about those reviews during Schmidt’s tenure and after under Farrell was/is just ludicrous.

Whatever about not changing the tactics I’d love to hear what were the actual tactics.
That’s the biggest indictment.
England did nothing that wasn’t expected. Nothing!

heard a comment on newstalk that almost an insulting approach to the second half by England. Just kick a couple of penos, put it out to 3 scores required for Ireland - just tackle them until the clock is against them - England didn't even need to push for more scores or worry about possession as they don't need to against Ireland.

Ireland's success in the last 10 to 15 years has always been based around having a solid 10 and a fairly rigid game plan - until that player is found, anointed and THEN developed with enough experience not looking good for being competitive in the 6N, never mind the WC.

Paul Weller

glasso wrote: »

heard a comment on newstalk that almost an insulting approach to the second half by England. Just kick a couple of penos, put it out to 3 scores required for Ireland - just tackle them until the clock is against them - England didn't even need to push for more scores or worry about possession as they don't need to against Ireland.

Ireland's success in the last 10 to 15 years has always been based around having a solid 10 and a fairly rigid game plan - until that player is found, anointed and THEN developed with enough experience not looking good for being competitive in the 6N, never mind the WC.

I know it's early days...and I don't want to put pressure on the kid ...but Ben Healy looks like he could be that 10 in the next year or 2

Ardillaun

Dubinusa wrote: »

Johnny May is world class and very experienced. Keenan will hopefully learn from that mistake.
One problem I see is that for years we get into the attacking 1/3 of the field and we have no idea how to open up the top defenses.

It was an excellent kick and he was beaten in the air. That's going to happen, not a massive mistake. The likes of Kearney, Bowe, Horgan would have stood a much better chance against him but that's water under the bridge and Stockdale has some work to do before being reconsidered for the role.

England seemed to encounter more difficulty with Earls's elusive running, on the few occasions he got the ball, than boshing it up the middle. They have scored tries against us in recent years with some lovely kicks. Burns showed yesterday that we can do it too.

We defended quite well against their passing game.

theVersatile

Please can we wait for Heineken Cup or interpros before talking about Healy, Byrne Jr, JOB, Casey, Coombes, or anyone else getting a call up. These Pro14 games are fairly meaningless.

Paul Weller

Paul Weller wrote: »

I know it's early days...and I don't want to put pressure on the kid ...but Ben Healy looks like he could be that 10 in the next year or 2

the IRFU need to get the finger out, be ruthless and give the REAL TEST PROSPECTS at 10 some development experience at the provinces and then internationally to see if they have it or not and cut their losses on the ones that don't have it.

the poor pro league standard doesn't help in this regard of course.

home exhibition games where the visitors are smashed doesn't develop much of anything - how much more valuable is that than a training session really for a 10?

clsmooth

It’s not completely to do with the 10. If you’re not matching up up front, you’re in big trouble. The Irish forwards put in a huge shift yesterday and had to work very hard to make the gain line. We gave our back line very little front foot quick recycle ball. Compare that to England who made it look easy when they needed to. Their first try was inevitable once they got into our 22. Contrast that to how many times we have been pickpocketed in opposition 22 this year. Same thing happened to Leinster against Sarries losing lineouts in their 22 at key moments. We’re just not as clinical as they are. If we had given Ross Byrne front foot ball he would have done a decent job yesterday. I don’t think Owen Farrell would have managed much better if he was our 10 yesterday. Would Beauden Barrett have made any difference? He would have been nailed behind the gain line too.

clsmooth

clsmooth wrote: »

It’s not completely to do with the 10. If you’re not matching up up front, you’re in big trouble. The Irish forwards put in a huge shift yesterday and had to work very hard to make the gain line. We gave our back line very little front foot quick recycle ball. Compare that to England who made it look easy when they needed to. Their first try was inevitable once they got into our 22. Contrast that to how many times we have been pickpocketed in opposition 22 this year. Same thing happened to Leinster against Sarries losing lineouts in their 22 at key moments. We’re just not as clinical as they are. If we had given Ross Byrne front foot ball he would have done a decent job yesterday. I don’t think Owen Farrell would have managed much better if he was our 10 yesterday. Would Beauden Barrett have made any difference? He would have been nailed behind the gain line too.

of course it's not but Ireland has never been competitive without a decent 10.

also the development track of 10's is different to other positions.

there's more game-running involved and development experience needs to be provided at increasing levels of difficulty to see if a prospect is test level or not.

Ireland have been too conservative and paternalistic in this regard to 10's imo.

bad luck with Carberry and Jackson - so what, spilt milk - have to deal with it at this point and try to sort it out.

UAEguy2020

theVersatile wrote: »

Please can we wait for Heineken Cup or interpros before talking about Healy, Byrne Jr, JOB, Casey, Coombes, or anyone else getting a call up. These Pro14 games are fairly meaningless.

You see enough from the little things these players do to see if they are test level or not. Yes the CC is a higher level but truth be told no level these players play at will prove if they are test level.

UAEguy2020

clsmooth wrote: »

It’s not completely to do with the 10. If you’re not matching up up front, you’re in big trouble. The Irish forwards put in a huge shift yesterday and had to work very hard to make the gain line. We gave our back line very little front foot quick recycle ball. Compare that to England who made it look easy when they needed to. Their first try was inevitable once they got into our 22. Contrast that to how many times we have been pickpocketed in opposition 22 this year. Same thing happened to Leinster against Sarries losing lineouts in their 22 at key moments. We’re just not as clinical as they are. If we had given Ross Byrne front foot ball he would have done a decent job yesterday. I don’t think Owen Farrell would have managed much better if he was our 10 yesterday. Would Beauden Barrett have made any difference? He would have been nailed behind the gain line too.

Well he (Barrett) already was as we saw in 2019!
When England bring that line speed you put it in behind, that’s how SA won the World Cup, they outkicked England and England buckled.

UAEguy2020

I still think that loss in Dublin in 2019 is playing on the Irish players mind. It’s so obvious what England are going to do to Ireland every game and every time Ireland just right into the trap, that along with missing the basics.

The game in Dublin is very important other than just being a potential championship decider but also a chance to clear those demons.

UAEguy2020

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

I still think that loss in Dublin in 2019 is playing on the Irish players mind. It’s so obvious what England are going to do to Ireland every game and every time Ireland just right into the trap, that along with missing the basics.

The game in Dublin is very important other than just being a potential championship decider but also a chance to clear those demons.

only 6 starters from that day started for Ireland yesterday.

11 of the same English starters.

I think it's more that England have no fear of Ireland at this point and just expect to beat them.