England v Ireland Autumn Nations Cup | 21.11.20 KO 15:00 | RTE 1 Read Post #5

First Up

Solutionking wrote:

Also I would have whipped off Lowe, moved Keenan to wing and put Stockdale into 15 earlier. But I know that could hit Lowe confidence and he is a confidence player. We know what Earls can do, we know we couldn't win so why not move Keenan onto Earls wing and put Stockdale into 15. Try it out

You think Lowe is that fragile? I don't. He was beaten in the air for the the first try but he had no chance to show anything in attack behind a static back line. He is brilliant in broken play but we didn't create any yesterday.

molloyjh

clsmooth wrote: »

Stats don’t ever seem impressive for Irish 6s. POM’s key stats over the last few years have been low when he’s lined out with 6. Doris was similar in France when he started at 6. Stander yesterday. Coincidence?

Probably not. People often say that the number doesn't matter in the back row, but it most likely matters a lot. Hence the comment about him resourcing the rucks. We'd need to review the game itself with the stats in mind to understand the context. It does seem strange that we didn't use Stander as a carrier given his abilities there combined with our relative lack of options in that regard.

guapos

First Up wrote: »

You think Lowe is that fragile? I don't. He was beaten in the air for the the first try but he had no chance to show anything in attack behind a static back line. He is brilliant in broken play but we didn't create any yesterday.

Think it was keenan who was beaten in the air. In hindsight he should have stepped back and waited for him to land

theVersatile

First Up wrote: »

You think Lowe is that fragile? I don't. He was beaten in the air for the the first try but he had no chance to show anything in attack behind a static back line. He is brilliant in broken play but we didn't create any yesterday.

Keenan was beaten in the air for the first try

Happy4all

guapos wrote: »

Think it was keenan who was beaten in the air. In hindsight he should have stepped back and waited for him to land

Yes , I thought he should have been a bit more astute in reading the situation. That said, everyone makes mistakes and I thought he recovered to have a decent game

declanflynn

guapos wrote: »

Think it was keenan who was beaten in the air. In hindsight he should have stepped back and waited for him to land

agree,
If Ireland had gained parity in the line out and make a few less mistakes we could have won that game, England dont go out to win, they go out and force the other team to lose, Ireland fell into a trap that they could have avoided, England's game plan would not beat SA or NW and it won't be good enough to defeat Ireland in the 6 nations

Dog Botherer

some amount of edgelords wetting themselves over the anti racism stuff. people love telling on themselves.

molloyjh

I know some think the line out cost us, but even if all of our line outs had been perfect, where would the scores have come from? We couldn't break down their defence at all. How many times did we have possession in-play in the red zone? And how many times did we score?

Sure, the line-out was a problem, but even with that going on we still had opportunities to win that game. We still had periods of possession in the red zone that we could have scored from. But we didn't. Having more opportunities is never going to guarantee scores.

shootermacg

molloyjh wrote: »

I know some think the line out cost us, but even if all of our line outs had been perfect, where would the scores have come from? We couldn't break down their defence at all. How many times did we have possession in-play in the red zone? And how many times did we score?

Sure, the line-out was a problem, but even with that going on we still had opportunities to win that game. We still had periods of possession in the red zone that we could have scored from. But we didn't. Having more opportunities is never going to guarantee scores.

One thing I am sure of is, losing all those lineouts in their 5M / 22 didn't help matters. It's a game of pressure, the longer a team holds possession in the opposition's 22 the more the pressure on the other team ramps up and the more change there is for a mistake to happen. Gifting them the ball in their 22 is a boost for them and a kick in the stones for us.

awec

They literally scored a try directly off one of our own lineouts in their 22, so they were clearly a huge factor in the result.

UAEguy2020

The way people have reacted to the England and France defeat you would have thought those same people expected us to win the match...

awec

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

The way people have reacted to the England and France defeat you would have thought those same people expected us to win the match...

It was the manner of the defeat. But you know this already.

Like night follows day, Ireland play poorly and some are trying their best to excuse it. Yea we were never going to win today, but we played some really dumb rugby, the coaches decided on some really daft tactics and the indecisiveness in subbing off underperforming players was ridiculous. Losing would be fine if it looked like we were building toward something. But I guess I haven't drank enough kool-aid to think we're building toward anything other than another disappointing Six Nations.

shootermacg

awec wrote: »

It was the manner of the defeat. But you know this already.

Like night follows day, Ireland play poorly and some are trying their best to excuse it.

Basically SA and England have taken Joe-Ball and implemented it with bigger players.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

They literally scored a try directly off one of our own lineouts in their 22, so they were clearly a huge factor in the result.

And even if they hadn't we still would have lost. I'm not saying it wasn't an issue. I'm saying that even if it wasn't I think we still would have lost. Because a bigger issue was what we were (or weren't) doing with the ball in open play.

dor843088

Our best 10 was from England yesterday
Our best centre is from Athlone
Our best back 3 is from New Zealand
Our best back row is South African
Our best 2nd row is South African
Our best front row is from Wexford

Is it time we kicked the schools to touch ?

awec

First Up wrote: »

The Irish forwards must be delighted to see how their hard won ball was continually wasted.

Was Byrne following Farrell's instructions to stand so deep? He gets the Leinster backs moving but yesterday he just presented hospital passes from a standing start. So much possession with nothing to show for it.

Byrne standing deep, with Aki and Farrell outside him receiving the ball standing still, neither an elusive runner, neither one going to unlock any defence with their passing ability.

Passing deep with two bosh merchants in the centre, I genuinely hope that this was not the tactics dictated by the coaches.

molloyjh

dor843088 wrote: »

Our best 10 was from England yesterday
Our best centre is from Athlone
Our best back 3 is from New Zealand
Our best back row is South African
Our best 2nd row is South African
Our best front row is from Wexford

Is it time we kicked the schools to touch ?

Really poor effort. Really poor. So poor I felt compelled to comment on just how poor it was.

sydthebeat

dor843088 wrote: »

Our best 10 was from England yesterday
Our best centre is from Athlone
Our best back 3 is from New Zealand
Our best back row is South African
Our best 2nd row is South African
Our best front row is from Wexford

Is it time we kicked the schools to touch ?

Oooohhhhh


Edgy


LOL

JohnniDrama

Interested Observer wrote: »

I didn't actually see the game, and probably won't rewatch now but really surprised reading these comments on Stander. Even in games where he isn't hugely effective you can normally count on 10-15 carries and 10-15 tackles from him, but saw stats on Twitter earlier suggesting he wasn't even very busy. Wonder if the coaches were trying to use him in a different way or something, but then you'd wonder why they'd do that.

Go back and watch the first 8 minutes of the second half. I specifically watched for Stander because I thought he was very quiet in that first half.

In those 8 minutes....

Zero carry
Zero tackles
Zero rucks
Zero set piece

He contributed nothing at all in those 8 minutes and I mean not a single intervention. I couldn’t believe it.

He made 3 metres overall according to the stats.

Now he was not alone but he is meant to be one of our primary forwards. So if they were using him say to stand on a touch line or something, the plan failed.

schmoo2k

I see sheep wrote: »

There's a image going around of a few England players taking a knee during the English anthem, showing Irish players not doing it,
Sorry I missed the start of the game, was there the chance for the Irish players to do it or they decided not to? Thanks

I suspect it wasn't for Bloody Sunday?

JohnniDrama

eclipsechaser wrote: »

We're a small population where rugby is the 4th sport. Still, we've managed multiple club European championships, multiple 6 Nations titles, grandslams, a summer tour and wins over NZ.

I'd say it's been a remarkably successful time in the IRFU's history. Sure the WC results haven't been great and we don't look as good right now but really we've been spoilt compared to how Ireland traditionally fared.

Of course you are completely right....amazing times....

But what about right now? And going forward?

We can’t keep going on about Saint Joe and Chicago forever.

bilston

JohnniDrama wrote: »

Of course you are completely right....amazing times....

But what about right now? And going forward?

We can’t keep going on about Saint Joe and Chicago forever.

We're in between cycles...it happens all the time.

We're still probably No.3 in Europe and in top 6 or 7 in the world...the other thing is that we've had some.outstanding U20s sides in the last 4 years, some of those players are starting to come through and there are more to come. I'm pretty confident we will come good in the 12-24 months. Leinster, Ulster and Munster are hammering everyone in the Pro 14 at the moment and they are doing largely with young players who have come out of these U20s sides.

That said England and France are going to be strong for the next few years so repeating the successes of the 2010s will be difficult.

ionadnapokot

awec wrote: »

Byrne standing deep, with Aki and Farrell outside him receiving the ball standing still, neither an elusive runner, neither one going to unlock any defence with their passing ability.

Passing deep with two bosh merchants in the centre, I genuinely hope that this was not the tactics dictated by the coaches.

It wasn’t helping with Byrne standing deep that’s for sure.
If the plan was to stand deep to allow space to kick through or over the top that would have been sensible.

Unfortunately I think it’s the secondary point you made because there is an overwhelming body of evidence that that is exactly how we tried to play the last two times v England.
Deeply concerning that this appeared to be the plan under Farrell to beat them.
And if it’s not plan what was it?

Because there was oceans of space in behind England all game and the coaches either failed to identify this (again v England) and or the players didn’t exploit it.
In fairness to Burns he clearly saw this and executed the chip well.
Game was up at that stage. Although It felt over after the 1st try.

If we were judging the Farrell coaching ticket on this game there would be questions asked.
The fact is this is almost an exact replica of what we have seen from Ireland v England.
With the addition of the chaotic defensive performance v France this is deeply concerning because of the three key things you expect from in any good side.
1. Selection - Grade D
2. Game plan - Grade D
3. Execution - Grade D

JohnniDrama

Solutionking wrote: »

I do love to see the crazy over reaction after every loss.



You do realize that England and France keep changing the Henieken Cup format because they struggle to compete with the Irish provinces. Yet you are asking to throw it out.

We are a small island and rugby would struggle to be our 3rd sport yet people expect us to be the number 1 in the World
In comparison England have 14 top teams all with academies. They are the richest union and the national team has a superstar team of coachs picked from all around the World. SA destory them in the scrum, well then hire the SA scrum coach.
Unless we change every pitch in Ireland and every secondary school to rugby we will never be at that level.

Also the team is in a massive transition, Sexton, Kearney, SOB and Murray having to be replaced. New coaching team which still have question marks.

Plus this is a makey up competition with no real prize, no WC seeding. The whole point of it is to bring in new players, something which everyone complains we are not good at doing, they try to bring in new players, lose a nothing game and you have people posting the above. Bit of cop on needed to be honest. If we start the same old team filled with players from the WC I can imagine the reaction. With soem people you can never win
The big mistake yesterday was not starting Burns which could have been down to head injury assessment which I understand, but he should have been brought on earlier. Also I would have whipped off Lowe, moved Keenan to wing and put Stockdale into 15 earlier. But I know that could hit Lowe confidence and he is a confidence player. We know what Earls can do, we know we couldn't win so why not move Keenan onto Earls wing and put Stockdale into 15. Try it out

Maybe I should have posted my thoughts in the Ireland thread...For me, it is a medium term view held over the last few years. Not an extreme reaction to just one game.

But I understand your sentiment.

I am just trying to challenge if the IRFU are set up for success going forward...They have shown in the past to be very good to adapt at times, but also to be very slow at other times.

I feel they are behind the curve recently. That’s all.

LuckyLloyd

eclipsechaser wrote: »

We're a small population where rugby is the 4th sport. Still, we've managed multiple club European championships, multiple 6 Nations titles, grandslams, a summer tour and wins over NZ.

I'd say it's been a remarkably successful time in the IRFU's history. Sure the WC results haven't been great and we don't look as good right now but really we've been spoilt compared to how Ireland traditionally fared.

It's two years now being every inch the "softies" Rassie assessed us as. Joe's brief period where it fell right for him is in the past and the ebb and flow of provincial outcomes is decoupled from the national team. The Vodafone Greens have been disappointing for two years now and we don't appear as if we're moving towards anything good. It's been an incredibly grim period since we beat New Zealand and it should be okay to label it for what it is.

TomsOnTheRoof

Interested Observer wrote: »

I didn't actually see the game, and probably won't rewatch now but really surprised reading these comments on Stander. Even in games where he isn't hugely effective you can normally count on 10-15 carries and 10-15 tackles from him, but saw stats on Twitter earlier suggesting he wasn't even very busy. Wonder if the coaches were trying to use him in a different way or something, but then you'd wonder why they'd do that.

Stander was stuck to the wing. Looked like he was playing the 1 role in the attacking system. Would make sense considering we had Farrell at 13 who's more likely to carry than pass.

Just noticed clsmooth's comment with regard to our blindside. It does seem to be too much of a coincidence that they consistently fall out of games.

shootermacg

I think the guys here saying Farrell is a bosh merchant are way wide of the mark. He had little option when faced with a 14 man rush defense, what choice did he have? Shovel the ball out to his winger to get bundled into touch?

Farrell has a very good passing game, which he's showed many times. He also did very well to truck up static ball. Unfortunately the halfback performance didn't really leave him with any real options.

Solutionking

JohnniDrama wrote: »

Maybe I should have posted my thoughts in the Ireland thread...For me, it is a medium term view held over the last few years. Not an extreme reaction to just one game.

But I understand your sentiment.

I am just trying to challenge if the IRFU are set up for success going forward...They have shown in the past to be very good to adapt at times, but also to be very slow at other times.

I feel they are behind the curve recently. That’s all.

How? Ireland is in the top 5 in World, potentially top 4. We have three provinces which would hope to be in knockout each season with two having ambitions to win it. One province who is rolling over the majority of teams across Europe and unbeaten in I dont know how long in their league.

Yes you could say England/NZ/SA/France are ahead of us in terms of national team but on our day we could still beat any of those teams, if we had France at home in last game I think we can all say we would have won.

We have a academy system with one main province but two others starting to produce players

So what exactly are the IRFU behind the curve on?

As I said, unless we swap everyone from GAA to Rugby it's not going to change massively. England at the moment are ahead of Ireland, I could have told you that before the game
On Amazon they had the welsh talking, flicked back over and POC was doing the main presenter, comment was said the Welsh said England by 15 to get a reaction, POC said that was about right. How is anyone surprised we lost the game? a win would have been a massive massive shock.

Solutionking

shootermacg wrote: »

I think the guys here saying Farrell is a bosh merchant are way wide of the mark. He had little option when faced with a 14 man rush defense, what choice did he have? Shovel the ball out to his winger to get bundled into touch?

Farrell has a very good passing game, which he's showed many times. He also did very well to truck up static ball. Unfortunately the halfback performance didn't really leave him with any real options.

Can't complain about Byrne and then make an excuse for Farrell. I think Farrell will want to forget yesterday

But personally picked one player out is the problem. X done this and was great and Y done that and was sh*t. Looked like complete system failures across the pitch yesterday which has to be a concern for the management. Farrell is defense and we look off, taking into consideration the like of Porter left on the wing in the French game and getting burned for first try. Why is this happening? is the system wrong?

shootermacg

shootermacg wrote: »

I think the guys here saying Farrell is a bosh merchant are way wide of the mark. He had little option when faced with a 14 man rush defense, what choice did he have? Shovel the ball out to his winger to get bundled into touch?

Farrell has a very good passing game, which he's showed many times. He also did very well to truck up static ball. Unfortunately the halfback performance didn't really leave him with any real options.

Farrell has a good passing game - he's a quality centre and had some great moments in the second half yesterday.

But we needed to move the ball smarter and use a mix of decoy runners and depth and we didn't seem to have anyone coordinating that. I commented in the thread yesterday that whilst Aki, Farrell and Byrne are all quality players they combined bluntly against a pressing English defence and Byrne wasn't able to bring in guys around him like he can at Leinster. Part of that is the step up to International level but I'm not sure if he was a bit rattled having had a bad previous experience in Twickenham or if it's a failure in our general attacking shape. The Ross Byrne who was part of that come back against Exeter a few seasons ago is a better player than what we saw yesterday.

I honestly think our attacking shape is a product of our coaching and a failure to evolve as Sexton has also looked ordinary on a few occasions the last year for Ireland.

The difference a player like Ringrose might have made is summed up in this try from 2018:



We saw little of that yesterday. Mix of the type of players available but also a poorly drilled side perhaps?