France's Macron issues 'Republican values' ultimatum to Muslim leaders

briany

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Whereas, I see people who just can't allow the far right to fade into nothingness, needing to draw parallels with them all the time. The far right is the boogeyman. It's a shame they represent such remarkably small numbers considering the amount of airtime they receive from people complaining about them. Which is why, I guess, there's this need to push people who express unfavorable criticisms into the camp of the far right, because then, they'll feel justified in their fears of the far right.

A lot of the support that the genuine far right has received in recent years has come from people being pushed there because they're not allowed to express their opinions without being labelled, and once labelled, shut down from participating.



Making a broad generalisation about the behavior of Muslims on a discussion board discussing said topic, isn't an appropriate example of being far right. People generalise when discussing topics. It's completely natural, and shouldn't need a disclaimer. The gas thing is when posters say all muslims are <insert positive> there's no outcry. Wonder why that is?

The genuine far right are extremely obvious in their rhetoric, and most people would avoid them like the plague... because they're retards. However, now, that we've got this need to push/assign posters or opinions into being far right, I guess the lines have blurred since even conservatives can be considered far right depending on who's handling the "label gun".

So, the question is... why do you feel the need to make the association of that posters contribution with the far right? It certainly wasn't my thought on reading it.

I objected to that posters remark for failing to, or choosing not to, delineate between someone who is simply a Muslim and someone who's an Islamic extremist. We can't generalise on that because in this case it could lead to the unnecessary vilification of innocent people.

It's unfortunate to have to invoke Godwinn's law, but the historical parallels are too big to ignore. Far right rhetoric and populist rhetoric thrives on crass generalisation, and the antidote to it is nuance. Any group is made of individuals, including Muslims, and moderate/liberal/irreligious ones shouldn't have to face vilification due to the actions of individuals with whom they are associated in the eyes of others.

briany

46 Long wrote: »

Do you genuinely think that in Europe, in 2020 - asking Muslims to accept European values starts us on a trajectory that ends in the mass-murder of 6 millions Muslims in concentration camps?

You would hope not, but let's look at what Mr Karate said,

"When he starts demolishing Mosques stripping Muslims of citizenship and mass deportations I'll give him credit. Until then its his usual lip service."

So, I would hope that Mr Karate is just a lone nutter or troll on that one, but the worry is that each measure taken is not extreme enough for some.

SexBobomb

briany wrote: »

Any group is made of individuals, including Muslims, and moderate/liberal/irreligious ones shouldn't have to face vilification due to the actions of individuals with whom they are associated in the eyes of others.

Now what the heck is an irreligious muslim ??

46 Long

briany wrote: »

You would hope not, but let's look at what Mr Karate said,

"When he starts demolishing Mosques stripping Muslims of citizenship and mass deportations I'll give him credit. Until then its his usual lip service."

So, I would hope that Mr Karate is just a lone nutter or troll on that one, but the worry is that each measure taken is not extreme enough for some.

I don't know Mr. Karate, but I would imagine that he meant deporting those convicted of crimes or on terrorist watchlists. Certainly any mosque promoting extremism should be shut down.

I'm still not seeing anything even remotely resembling calls for concentration camps or the mass slaughter of Muslims. I suggest you either provide something to back up your ridiculous claim, or withdraw it.

briany

46 Long wrote: »

I don't know Mr. Karate, but I would imagine that he meant deporting those convicted of crimes or on terrorist watchlists. Certainly any mosque promoting extremism should be shut down.

I'm still not seeing anything even remotely resembling calls for concentration camps or the mass slaughter of Muslims. I suggest you either provide something to back up your ridiculous claim, or withdraw it.

You imagine he meant....

Well if you're willing to give the benefit of the doubt on that one, even though he made no such stipulation, maybe you'd do the same for me, or even better, reread the following,

"On the current trajectory, I can only envision things going a similar way for the Muslim populations of Europe"

So, as you can see, this is my speculation on the future based on the current growing hostility toward Muslim populations in Europe.

briany

SexBobomb wrote: »

Now what the heck is an irreligious muslim ??

Same thing as a cultural Catholic. Someone raised in/around the faith and attends weddings and funerals, but doesn't really care about it outside of that.

46 Long

briany wrote: »

So, as you can see, this is my speculation on the future based on the current growing hostility toward Muslim populations in Europe.

A slippery slope fallacy, in other words.

ILoveYourVibes

It would have been better for Macron to get ALL religious leaders in France to sign this.

Leaders of the catholic protestant churches too...rabbis etc.

Wibbs

46 Long wrote: »

Do you genuinely think that in Europe, in 2020 - asking Muslims to accept European values starts us on a trajectory that ends in the mass-murder of 6 millions Muslims in concentration camps?

About the biggest reason for this gra for "diversity" and "multiculturalism" is not because it works, as it quite clearly doesn't, least of all for the diverse, it's down to exactly that fear and guilt of another war between European nations and a holocaust in mainland Europe that came off the back of WW2 and the nazis(the EU itself came out of that fear). We're still living in the shadow of that.

donaghs

briany wrote: »

I objected to that posters remark for failing to, or choosing not to, delineate between someone who is simply a Muslim and someone who's an Islamic extremist. We can't generalise on that because in this case it could lead to the unnecessary vilification of innocent people.

It's unfortunate to have to invoke Godwinn's law, but the historical parallels are too big to ignore. Far right rhetoric and populist rhetoric thrives on crass generalisation, and the antidote to it is nuance. Any group is made of individuals, including Muslims, and moderate/liberal/irreligious ones shouldn't have to face vilification due to the actions of individuals with whom they are associated in the eyes of others.

Was Kemal Ataturk being racist/Islamaphobic when he insisted that Turkish Muslims accept his secular republican system? Marcon is not asking for much in comparison.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Six_Arrows

ExMachina1000

Macron has boxed clever. He has set a target of "Republic values "
He now has an excuse to go after Islam if that target is not reached

Well played Emmanuel

donaghs

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Macron has boxed clever. He has set a target of "Republic values "
He now has an excuse to go after Islam if that target is not reached

Well played Emmanuel

How do you "go after Islam"? Its just a bunch of ideas, open to interpretation.

If you mean not accepting the interpretation of Islam that preach violence, and promote as a political movement, as a religion - that seems fairly reasonable in the modern world.

Ataturk's legacy in Turkey is being dissolved, but look how far he went.

Wibbs

donaghs wrote: »

Ataturk's legacy in Turkey is being dissolved, but look how far he went.

Yes but he was making changes in a very different time. A time when more people in majority Muslim states wanted a taste of the "modern" and "western". It happened pretty much everywhere in the Muslim world of the ME. Iraq at one time even had a pretty popular communist party(it's still there, but much reduced). What put paid to it was largely western interference propping up puppet leaders fighting the cold war by proxy. That quite naturally alienated local populations who had long memories of how western powers had carved up the ME previously and dragged them into their wars.

ExMachina1000

donaghs wrote: »

How do you "go after Islam"? Its just a bunch of ideas, open to interpretation.

If you mean not accepting the interpretation of Islam that preach violence, and promote as a political movement, as a religion - that seems fairly reasonable in the modern world.

Ataturk's legacy in Turkey is being dissolved, but look how far he went.

Sorry i should have been clearer. It gives a reason and justification for french authorities to come down hard on radical Islam and any organisation suspected of radicalisation or fringe operation.

Normal hard working Muslims have nothing to worry about

ElJeffe

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Macron has boxed clever. He has set a target of "Republic values "
He now has an excuse to go after Islam if that target is not reached

Well played Emmanuel

You can't "go after Islam". The problem has already embedded itself in the greater community and it's impossible to eradicate it. The western world has lost the war, these battles are pointless. People who warned about this happening many years ago where called racists by the likes of Macron.

Mr. Karate

briany wrote: »

Same thing as a cultural Catholic. Someone raised in/around the faith and attends weddings and funerals, but doesn't really care about it outside of that.

There is no such thing as a cultural Muslim/lapsed Muslim. It is forbidden. You are All In or Dead.

People need to wake up the reality that this a dangerous ideology.

Dyr

Mr. Karate wrote: »

There is no such thing as a cultural Muslim/lapsed Muslim. It is forbidden. You are All In or Dead.

People need to wake up the reality that this a dangerous ideology.

I know Muslims who have no interest in observing Islamic religious practices, interestingly they're all still politically very Muslim, great Satan America, don't like Jews and so on.

Mr. Karate

Bambi wrote: »

I know Muslims who have no interest in observing Islamic religious practices, interestingly they're all still politically very Muslim, great Satan America, don't like Jews and so on.

Then they're bs'ing you. Islam is as much of a political ideology [Sharia] as much as it is a religion. They cannot be separated.

statesaver

Has any other European leader come out in support of Macron ?

statesaver

Bambi wrote: »

I know Muslims who have no interest in observing Islamic religious practices, interestingly they're all still politically very Muslim, great Satan America, don't like Jews and so on.

Think there is some term / law / passage in the Quran that allows Muslims to lie to infidels.
Maybe that's what they are doing to you.

biko

Bambi wrote: »

I know Muslims who have no interest in observing Islamic religious practices, interestingly they're all still politically very Muslim, great Satan America, don't like Jews and so on.

If they don't pray etc then they are not real Muslims. They may say they are, but they are not.
Salah is an obligatory ritual for all Muslims, except for those who are prepubescent or menstruating.

Mr. Karate

statesaver wrote: »

Think there is some term / law / passage in the Quran that allows Muslims to lie to infidels.
Maybe that's what they are doing to you.

Taqiyya. The ability to deceive [lie] non Muslims in order to help the spread of Islam [Islam is a religion of peace anyone?] Anything they say to us should be heavily scrutinized.

Let not the believers take the disbelievers as Auliya (supporters, helpers, etc.) instead of the believers, and whoever does that will never be helped by God in any way, except if you indeed fear a danger from them. And God warns you against Himself (His Punishment), and to God is the final return. Qur’an 3:28

Dyr

Mr. Karate wrote: »

Then they're bs'ing you. Islam is as much of a political ideology [Sharia] as much as it is a religion. They cannot be separated.

Honestly they ain't, born into Western Muslim families and have no interest in following Islam, they're kids arent being raised as Muslims but they will still side with Muslim positions on political issues

Mr. Karate

Bambi wrote: »

Honestly they ain't, born into Western Muslim families and have no interest in following Islam,

History has shown us in the last near 2 decades in the West that those end up the most radicalized.

biko

biko wrote: »

If they don't pray etc then they are not real Muslims. They may say they are, but they are not.
Salah is an obligatory ritual for all Muslims, except for those who are prepubescent or menstruating.

I seem to remember that once you're baptized into Christianity, it's pretty difficult to stop being a Christian. At least, in the eyes of other Christians... Dunno, if there is a legal perspective from when the RCC was more influential/powerful?

"The fact of having been baptized remains a fact and the Catholic Church holds that baptism marks a person with a lasting seal or character that "is an ontological and permanent bond which is not lost by reason of any act or fact of defection."

Would there be something similar for Muslims? Once inducted into the faith, that it's difficult to leave it, except as an non-practicing Muslim, but still seen as a Muslim? Considering that Islam is a very community focused faith, leaving it might be possible, but.... would it be sensible? (apostasy) I'd imagine anyone wanting to stop being Muslim, would still call themselves such, while keeping a very low profile...

Mr. Karate

Deleted User wrote: »

I seem to remember that once you're baptized into Christianity, it's pretty difficult to stop being a Christian. At least, in the eyes of other Christians... Dunno, if there is a legal perspective from when the RCC was more influential/powerful?

"The fact of having been baptized remains a fact and the Catholic Church holds that baptism marks a person with a lasting seal or character that "is an ontological and permanent bond which is not lost by reason of any act or fact of defection."

Would there be something similar for Muslims? Once inducted into the faith, that it's difficult to leave it, except as an non-practicing Muslim, but still seen as a Muslim? Considering that Islam is a very community focused faith, leaving it might be possible, but.... would it be sensible? (apostasy) I'd imagine anyone wanting to stop being Muslim, would still call themselves such, while keeping a very low profile...

No, leaving Islam is punishable by death.

https://abdullahsameer.com/apostasy/

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/apostasy.aspx

People to seriously start removing their heads from their asses when it comes to Islam. It is NOTHING like Christianity. And people need to stop acting like it is.

Mr. Karate

Mr. Karate wrote: »

No, leaving Islam is punishable by death.

https://abdullahsameer.com/apostasy/

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/apostasy.aspx

People to seriously start removing their heads from their asses when it comes to Islam. It is NOTHING like Christianity. And people need to stop acting like it is.

I've said before this that there can be no true comparison between Islam and Christianity. Discussing about how people can/can't leave a religion isn't seeking to compare the two to justify anything...

So... yeah.. people do need to start removing their heads from their asses, and remember what has been said before. :rolleyes:

Forcing reform isn't possible, since it simply creates martyrs. Christianity and Islam are completely different, and there's no real comparison to be made. The reform of Christianity is directly connected to our history of social development, and Islamic countries have gone a different direction to what European/western nations did.

Mr. Karate

[QUOTE=Deleted User;115377579]I've said before this that there can be no true comparison between Islam and Christianity. Discussing about how people can/can't leave a religion isn't seeking to compare the two to justify anything...

So... yeah.. people do need to start removing their heads from their asses, and remember what has been said before. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

That last statement of mine was more of a general one than a statement made directly at you. My apologies for that.

It amazes me seeing willful ignorance of people defending Islam. How much more evidence do they need before they realize the truth? Does Ireland need a 9/11 of its own before the bleeding hearts here finally the truth?

not yet

A good start would be stopping the billions of euro sent to these communities from Saudi. There is a programme to place to fund the building of Mosques around Europe, funded Saudi Arabia.

Mr. Karate

not yet wrote: »

A good start would be stopping the billions of euro sent to these communities from Saudi. There is a programme to place to fund the building of Mosques around Europe, funded Saudi Arabia.

Or Govt doesn't have the backbone to do it.