France's Macron issues 'Republican values' ultimatum to Muslim leaders

biko

Christianity used to be a terribly oppressive religion, not much unlike Islam is today.
It was reformed however.
Can we really wait for Islam to reform by itself (unlikely), or force it?
It seems France is trying that right now.

I think it will have the opposite effect - it will radicalise them even more.
We'll know soon.

Danzy

biko wrote: »

Christianity used to be a terribly oppressive religion, not much unlike Islam is today.
It was reformed however.
Can we really wait for Islam to reform by itself (unlikely), or force it?
It seems France is trying that right now.

I think it will have the opposite effect - it will radicalise them even more.
We'll know soon.

To even talk of reforming Islam is punishable by death.

Mad_maxx

if a political leader in ireland made this call , Fintan o Toole would explode with outrage

Mad_maxx

Sultan of Bling wrote: »

One can only dream of a day where all religion is extinct from all society.

good clean safety shot

Mad_maxx

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

If everyone behaved like Jesus, things would be pretty much OK i reckon. Cheeks slapped off us, but otherwise....
If everyone behaved like Muhammed, we might have problems.

Religon itself is benign, and can be a force for "good" when taken in moderation.
Its the devout that are usually the problem.

Religion itself is manmade , so is the atomic bomb

religions are sets of ideas , there is no reason they cannot be inherently dangerous , islam is a protected belief in the west because its practitioners are largely non white , nobody hesitates to criticise scientology yet its arguably far less oppressive

banie01

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Um... you can be a white Muslim from Ireland... being a Muslim isn't dependent on skin color or nationality. Hell, they might even find your freckles and ginger hair to be a sign of Gods approval.

Yeah the ginger non-arabic speaker isn't going to stand out as the proposed spy at all...
My man failing in my soulman type disguise will be that my Arabic accent is quite poor, can't get the gutturals right but I'm sure my effort will be rewarded in paradise.

Alluhah Akbar!

biko

biko wrote: »

Christianity used to be a terribly oppressive religion, not much unlike Islam is today.
It was reformed however.
Can we really wait for Islam to reform by itself (unlikely), or force it?
It seems France is trying that right now.

I think it will have the opposite effect - it will radicalise them even more.
We'll know soon.

Forcing reform isn't possible, since it simply creates martyrs. Christianity and Islam are completely different, and there's no real comparison to be made. The reform of Christianity is directly connected to our history of social development, and Islamic countries have gone a different direction to what European/western nations did.

TBH it doesn't matter if Muslims radicalise or not, because it's out of our hands. They're already doing so in many instances when they've had complete freedom and the same rights as other Europeans... so, it's not the case that doing nothing will improve the situation. It'll happen regardless of our involvement because that's the direction the religion tends to head towards every few centuries. Builds up and then destroys itself. Except now, they will bring us down with them.

In or out. Muslims or any ethnically/culturally foreign groups need to be made to accept the conditions of living in European countries. There needs to be boundaries. It's not as if there aren't a wide range of Islamic countries for them to live in, should they want such an environment....

timmyntc

BIG GUNZ wrote: »

What went wrong with the Islamic world? Hard to believe it was once a bastion of science and learning.

Oil and the House of Saud

ElJeffe

Too little too late. The same people who called for France and other countries to stand up to Islam a few short years ago where branded racists and bigots. This also just looks like a vote gathering exercise for Macron as Le Pen looks certain to gain power sooner rather than later. Funny thing is we have the advantage here in Ireland of learning from mainland Europe's mistakes and yet we look to be headed down the same path as them but at a slower pace.

Europe will be a mess for the foreseeable future.

banie01

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Forcing reform isn't possible, since it simply creates martyrs. Christianity and Islam are completely different, and there's no real comparison to be made. The reform of Christianity is directly connected to our history of social development, and Islamic countries have gone a different direction to what European/western nations did.

.

The reform of Christianity must also be framed against the existence of a defined hierarchical structure in many of the Christian churches. Reform is far easier to propogate when it is driven as a management policy.
Be it Pope(Coptic or Catholic), Patriarch(orthodox or Nestorian) or many of the other flavours of Christianity there is a structure that can drive cultural shift in dogma.

There is no similar structure in Islam. There is no Caliph, there is no supreme head of the church and the divisions in Islamic sects are as broad and varied as amongst Christianity but without the structure.
There can be no overall direction offered by a Head of Church.
Each Mosque and each Imam is pretty much an independent preacher, think of it more akin to Evangelical Christianity than Episcopal church.

The disruption of radicalism is vital, it is far harder to target where that disruption should be aimed.
The French focus on faith schools is an important step. State mandated education to a shared curriculum is a means of sharing the values of the state.
Much like my feelings on church involvement in education here, cut it out, eliminate it and ensure that whilst religious beliefs and practice are protected(including prayer time) they are a matter to be thought at home.

This is a 20/25yr cycle that needs to break the isolation of Islamic communities and ensure that integration and actual engagement is the outcome.
Rather than the UK model of ghettoised multiculturalism and perpetual victimhood.

joseywhales

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Saying ‘treat all religions the same’ is the equivalent of ‘all lives matter’ , the problem only exists in one barbaric violent intolerant religion

Yes but if you are not consistent in your values(treat them all the same irrespective of religion) then you are no better than your enemy and your enemy can win the battle of morality and if they can compete there no amount of physical force can stop them. You will end up looking like holocaust enthusiasts.

If what you say is true, that the one religion is at fault, then by creating a moral framework for everyone irrespective of their religion it will be obvious that only muslims for example consistently break that framework and they can be fairly corrected because they broke the secular human rules which have nothing to do with their religion. In this way we can correct behavior and avoid religious discrimination. However if we enforce the rules using lazy stereotypes and prejudice against all muslims or all christians or all jews well obviously we will make no moral progress.

Galwayguy35

Mad_maxx wrote: »

if a political leader in ireland made this call , Fintan o Toole would explode with outrage

The whole Irish Times and The Journal team would explode.

Could probably include RTE in it as well.

Galwayguy35

Have to admire Macron for trying to tackle this problem but I fear its too late at this stage, this should be a warning for other EU member states as to what can happen if this toxic religion takes hold in their country.

The Poles and Hungarians are right to keep it out.

Mad_maxx

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Religion itself is manmade , so is the atomic bomb

religions are sets of ideas , there is no reason they cannot be inherently dangerous , islam is a protected belief in the west because its practitioners are largely non white , nobody hesitates to criticise scientology yet its arguably far less oppressive

A bomb is man made, but there are natural explosive substances. Religon has been evolving with us, since we stood upright.

Guns kill. But people need to pull the trigger.
A set of ideas never killed anyone, its the people interpreting the ideas who are the problem.

That the world would be better off without religion is false and unverifiable, and I'm saying that as an atheist. But the world would certainly be better off without zealots with a dangerous ideology.

Infini

BIG GUNZ wrote: »

What went wrong with the Islamic world? Hard to believe it was once a bastion of science and learning.

Saudi Fùcking 'Rabia. Alot of that crap came out of there in one form or another over the last few decades.

Infini

Infini wrote: »

Saudi Fùcking 'Rabia. Alot of that crap came out of there in one form or another over the last few decades.

Pakistan should be mentioned in the same breath

Mr. Karate

Too Little Too Late. Just lip service for when he's up for re-election.

France has fallen [much like Sweden, Germany and Britain. And probably us in a few years] Its an Islamic caliphate. They don't have the courage to do what is necessary to reclaim their Country.

Chris_Heilong

The most I can say is at least it is a start, just talking about it as being a issue is good but they have to be willing to take action, everyone needs to be playing by the same rules in order to be treated the same.

francois

Mr. Karate wrote: »

Too Little Too Late. Just lip service for when he's up for re-election.

France has fallen [much like Sweden, Germany and Britain. And probably us in a few years] Its an Islamic caliphate. They don't have the courage to do what is necessary to reclaim their Country.

twaddle

Mr. Karate

Mr. Karate wrote: »

Too Little Too Late. Just lip service for when he's up for re-election.

France has fallen [much like Sweden, Germany and Britain. And probably us in a few years] Its an Islamic caliphate. They don't have the courage to do what is necessary to reclaim their Country.

I think a lot of people here are too fatalistic about where European nations have become. We're not the US. We don't have the inbred notions that incapacitate them from implementing proper change, and most of the retarded notions that are screwing with European nations, have been imported from abroad. They're not native ideas... and as such, can be discarded in time.

I think western society has started to recognise that the various movements (feminism, civil rights etc) were all necessary steps but there is a serous danger to society in allowing them to continue past their true usefulness... and as that awareness comes (like the growing aversion to woke or PC culture), we'll see a shedding of the white guilt, the need to virtue signal, etc.

So, no, I don't agree. I think European/western society is going through a tough painful period of re-establishing it's values and sense of direction (during which it's particularly weak to external influences)... and once that happens, along with a more unifying sense of nationalism (for Europeans), we'll see harder stances on foreign cultures which are a threat. It's not going to happen in the short term, but steps like Macron is doing are necessary to set up the foundation.. a foundation that's not based on Nazism, or some flawed supremacy/extremist ideology.

TomTomTim

francois wrote: »

twaddle

What a persuasive counter argument

Danzy

Infini wrote: »

Saudi Fùcking 'Rabia. Alot of that crap came out of there in one form or another over the last few decades.

Islam was a bastion of learning from the time it conquered Alexandria to around the fall of Constantinople.

Lots of knowledge and learing introduced.

In the 12th century though a movement to return the Islamic world to true Islam started growing and that ended that.
So the Islamic world was once a bastion of learning but for 7 centuries it uas not been. As things currently stand it is going backwards even on that.

Mr. Karate

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Have to admire Macron for trying to tackle this problem but I fear its too late at this stage, this should be a warning for other EU member states as to what can happen if this toxic religion takes hold in their country.

The Poles and Hungarians are right to keep it out.

When he starts demolishing Mosques stripping Muslims of citizenship and mass deportations I'll give him credit. Until then its his usual lip service.

Mr. Karate

Deleted User wrote: »

I think a lot of people here are too fatalistic about where European nations have become. We're not the US. We don't have the inbred notions that incapacitate them from implementing proper change, and most of the retarded notions that are screwing with European nations, have been imported from abroad. They're not native ideas... and as such, can be discarded in time.

I think western society has started to recognise that the various movements (feminism, civil rights etc) were all necessary steps but there is a serous danger to society in allowing them to continue past their true usefulness... and as that awareness comes (like the growing aversion to woke or PC culture), we'll see a shedding of the white guilt, the need to virtue signal, etc.

So, no, I don't agree. I think European/western society is going through a tough painful period of re-establishing it's values and sense of direction (during which it's particularly weak to external influences)... and once that happens, along with a more unifying sense of nationalism (for Europeans), we'll see harder stances on foreign cultures which are a threat. It's not going to happen in the short term, but steps like Macron is doing are necessary to set up the foundation.. a foundation that's not based on Nazism, or some flawed supremacy/extremist ideology.

Bull****. If European Govts had the will and the courage they would have stopped this back in 2016 after the New Year's Eve rape and sexual assaults in Malmo and other parts of Europe. Instead Merkel and the EU have doubled down on mass importing them and demanding that we take them in. The media have gone to great lengths to protect them and appease them. They can commit rape or murder and get a slap on the wrist [not even get charged in certain instances, but if we criticize this we get charges and prison time.

Yeah, Europeans are ready to stop this ****. :rolleyes: More like bending over and continue taking it.

Mr. Karate

Mr. Karate wrote: »

Bull****.

You're not exactly garnering respect when you react in this kind of manner. Try rubbish, instead.

If European Govts had the will and the courage they would have stopped this back in 2016 after the New Year's Eve rape and sexual assaults in Malmo and other parts of Europe. Instead Merkel and the EU have doubled down on mass importing them and demanding that we take them in. The media have gone to great lengths to protect them and appease them. They can commit rape or murder and get a slap on the wrist [not even get charged in certain instances, but if we criticize this we get charges and prison time.

It seems you want to take these issues and place them in a vacuum, ignoring the range of social changes that swept Europe over the last three decades, from the attempts to embrace PC culture through to the virtue signalling exercises that many countries engaged in.

There weren't the conditions required to make sweeping changes to the "perceived" benefits or superiority of the western way of living. ie. freedom for all. There was too much hypocrisy and superficial thinking going on with any real introspection to acknowledge the weaknesses within our wonderful system. People didn't want, and many still don't, want to face up to the weaknesses that make us a soft target for migrants, con artists, and extremists.

However, we're starting/beginning to turn a corner with this. Both online and offline, populations are starting to question the benefits of such behavior, and what the cost for doing so entails. The boom times for economies has passed by, and people are realizing just how expensive all this posturing has become.

Yeah, Europeans are ready to stop this ****. :rolleyes: More like bending over and continue taking it.

Ahh well, oddly enough, we're able to have different opinions. I don't see it changing immediately, nor for a few years, but the seeds have been sown.. and I'd say within a decade, we'll see serious movement towards tightening European nations against this kind of rubbish.

46 Long

Deleted User wrote: »

I think part of problem is france introducing laws targeting muslims..

that banning hi-jab,while i can understand the logic behind it,is surely bound to have also bred resentment among muslims??


This resentment is then used to feed the extremist rethoric,a government coming in from high and demanding.x,y and z,seems a sure-fire way to harden views on all sides?



(That being said,im sure your average french muslim is sick sh1t of being associated with nutters within islam,and just wants to live their life)

"The Muslims are only beheading teachers in the street because we're mean with them"

briany

46 Long wrote: »

"The Muslims are only beheading teachers in the street because we're mean with them"

We can all agree that the kind of maniac who wants to behead someone in the street for words said should feel the full brunt of the law and condemnation from all sides.

But I'm always seeing the sneaky, pernicious rhetoric of the far-right. Use Islamist extremists to generate a fear and hatred of all Muslims, regardless of whether those people aren't of any extreme opinion and basically want to get on with their lives in peace.

And this is exactly what the Nazis did with the Jews. Generate a hatred and mistrust of Jews based on the idea of them all being shylock moneylenders and bankers who are destabilising Europe. Even, somehow, the ones in Warsaw ghettos without a penny to their name. The Nazis originally just wanted the Jews out of Europe, or at least their dominion. That proved a bit difficult as these people were citizens of Poland or Germany or the Netherlands etc., so we know what final solution the Nazis came to. On the current trajectory, I can only envision things going a similar way for the Muslim populations of Europe, especially where they're 2 or 3 generations deep in a given country and can't simply be deported.

But I can't and never condone the killing of innocents, either by Muslim extremists, or by far-right elements using fear of the other based on the actions of a tiny minority to fuel their own sleazy, slimy rise to power.

briany

briany wrote: »

But I can't and never condone the killing of innocents, either by Muslim extremists, or by far-right elements using fear of the other based on the actions of a tiny minority to fuel their own sleazy, slimy rise to power.

Whereas, I see people who just can't allow the far right to fade into nothingness, needing to draw parallels with them all the time. The far right is the boogeyman. It's a shame they represent such remarkably small numbers considering the amount of airtime they receive from people complaining about them. Which is why, I guess, there's this need to push people who express unfavorable criticisms into the camp of the far right, because then, they'll feel justified in their fears of the far right.

A lot of the support that the genuine far right has received in recent years has come from people being pushed there because they're not allowed to express their opinions without being labelled, and once labelled, shut down from participating.

But I'm always seeing the sneaky, pernicious rhetoric of the far-right. Use Islamist extremists to generate a fear and hatred of all Muslims, regardless of whether those people aren't of any extreme opinion and basically want to get on with their lives in peace.

Making a broad generalisation about the behavior of Muslims on a discussion board discussing said topic, isn't an appropriate example of being far right. People generalise when discussing topics. It's completely natural, and shouldn't need a disclaimer. The gas thing is when posters say all muslims are <insert positive> there's no outcry. Wonder why that is?

The genuine far right are extremely obvious in their rhetoric, and most people would avoid them like the plague... because they're retards. However, now, that we've got this need to push/assign posters or opinions into being far right, I guess the lines have blurred since even conservatives can be considered far right depending on who's handling the "label gun".

So, the question is... why do you feel the need to make the association of that posters contribution with the far right? It certainly wasn't my thought on reading it.

46 Long

briany wrote: »

And this is exactly what the Nazis did with the Jews. Generate a hatred and mistrust of Jews based on the idea of them all being shylock moneylenders and bankers who are destabilising Europe. Even, somehow, the ones in Warsaw ghettos without a penny to their name. The Nazis originally just wanted the Jews out of Europe, or at least their dominion. That proved a bit difficult as these people were citizens of Poland or Germany or the Netherlands etc., so we know what final solution the Nazis came to. On the current trajectory, I can only envision things going a similar way for the Muslim populations of Europe, especially where they're 2 or 3 generations deep in a given country and can't simply be deported.

Do you genuinely think that in Europe, in 2020 - asking Muslims to accept European values starts us on a trajectory that ends in the mass-murder of 6 millions Muslims in concentration camps?

Sand

Deleted User wrote: »

So, the question is... why do you feel the need to make the association of that posters contribution with the far right? It certainly wasn't my thought on reading it.

Ironically enough, he's using fear of the other.