Labour want to bring back auto-birthright citizenship

Tell me how

Kivaro wrote: »

And here we have, ladies and gentlemen, the new Godwin law of our 'new' age. When open-border types have lost the argument and cannot provide any sensible viewpoint to the discussion, they throw in the name "Trump", in the hope of derailing the thread. It is their last resort. All it does is actually highlight their dismal failure to constructively add to the topic on hand.

If you want to stick with the Project Fear tone that Ireland is only functioning in anyway approaching a reasonable fashion is because of the absence of an Irish passport for people who were still born and probably mostly live in the country then you go ahead. It's a narrative based on nothing other than scare tactics.

As for reference to Trump, you may have missed how topical him and his own selective views are right now. Up until a month ago, these boards were full of people saying his being returned was only going to be a formality. You wouldn't be the only person trying desperately to ignore the show he has made of himself and anyone who supported him. But, similar to his travel bans to the US from Muslim countries ignored the fact that most terrorism experienced in the US is from White ultra conservatives, you and others can continue to wave your pitchforks at a small number of people and convince yourself that the safety of the entire country is based on keeping their number as low as possible.

suicide_circus

Bonniedog wrote: »

Main obstacle to Bacik's nonsense will most likely again be EU which will not tolerate any member state having different citizenship laws as anyone claiming Irish citizenship can them move to any other member state.

I'm not sure the EU would have any say in our citizenship rules, would they?

suicide_circus

Tell me how wrote: »

If you want to stick with the Project Fear tone that Ireland is only functioning in anyway approaching a reasonable fashion is because of the absence of an Irish passport for people who were still born and probably mostly live in the country then you go ahead. It's a narrative based on nothing other than scare tactics.

As for reference to Trump, you may have missed how topical him and his own selective views are right now. Up until a month ago, these boards were full of people saying his being returned was only going to be a formality. You wouldn't be the only person trying desperately to ignore the show he has made of himself and anyone who supported him. But, similar to his travel bans to the US from Muslim countries ignored the fact that most terrorism experienced in the US is from White ultra conservatives, you and others can continue to wave your pitchforks at a small number of people and convince yourself that the safety of the entire country is based on keeping their number as low as possible.

Why do so few countries have this citizenship model? Trump is it?

suicide_circus

suicide_circus wrote: »

I'm not sure the EU would have any say in our citizenship rules, would they?

Not a lick.

EU countries have a variety of approaches to citizenship.

biko

Ireland is already more giving than most EU countries, but it seems for the extreme* left it isn't enough.



https://epthinktank.eu/2018/07/11/acquisition-and-loss-of-citizenship-in-eu-member-states-key-trends-and-issues/figure-1-rules-of-jus-soli-citizenship-in-eu-28/



*Ivana may be a member of a common left wing party, but unconditional jus soli is an extreme view compared to other European countries.

iebamm2580

Deleted User wrote: »

Not a lick.

EU countries have a variety of approaches to citizenship.

not much variety when it comes to this, think Ireland would be the only country to have birth-right citizenship.

Wibbs

I think trump is an orange moron and have from the start, and considered any Irish person using MAGA a thundering gobsh1te and have been quite clear about it. I also think a terrorist threat from Irish Muslims a low risk. Never mind that even radicals are largely given a free rein here, so likely won't want to poo on their own doorstep.

My issue is with the current politic of multiculturalism itself. It doesn't work very well, least of all for some migrant demographics. Its positives are at best vague and seem to boil down to exoticism and food and charity, the negatives are legion and demonstrable and are witnessed over many decades in every single European(and other) state where it's in play. We also have our own existing social problems, so why import more and worse ones? This is already happening in this country after the influx of non EU nationals 20 years ago. Africans are significantly more likely to be undereducated and unemployed than EU migrants and native Irish. These are facts.

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

Not a lick.

EU countries have a variety of approaches to citizenship.

None have birthright citizenship.

V8 Interceptor

Wibbs wrote: »

Africans are significantly more likely to be undereducated and unemployed than EU migrants and native Irish. These are facts.

That's because the Irish are wacist.

Bonniedog

Deleted User wrote: »

Not a lick.

EU countries have a variety of approaches to citizenship.

You seriously think that the Irish state will go against the EU on this or anything else

The relationship is similar to that which used to exist between the senior boys and the fags they bullied in English private schools.

If this state gives birthright citizenship, then it would allow all those people to move freely within the entire EU.

I expect that tomorrow we will see the Government senators whipped into line to oppose the Bacik Bill.

iebamm2580

iebamm2580 wrote: »

not much variety when it comes to this, think Ireland would be the only country to have birth-right citizenship.

There's only about a half dozen approaches wordlwide;

- Unconditional (eg. USA, Canada Mexico)
- Parental status (eg. Ireland, UK, Germany)
- Age/residency of child (eg. Finland France)
- Parental status or age/residency of child (eg. Belgium, Australia)
- Combination of parental status and age/residency of child (eg. Portugal, South Africa)
- Zero (eg. Russia, Sweden, Norway)

EU countries are in 5/6 approaches.

The EU cannot stop an EU country from implementing unconditional birthright citizenship. They may tut-tut about it but has no legal foundation to stop it.

iebamm2580

Deleted User wrote: »

There's only about a half dozen approaches wordlwide;

- Unconditional (eg. USA, Canada Mexico)
- Parental status (eg. Ireland, UK, Germany)
- Age/residency of child (eg. Finland France)
- Parental status or age/residency of child (eg. Belgium, Australia)
- Combination of parental status and age/residency of child (eg. Portugal, South Africa)
- Zero (eg. Russia, Sweden, Norway)

EU countries are in 5/6 approaches.

The EU cannot stop an EU country from implementing unconditional birthright citizenship. They may tut-tut about it but has no legal foundation to stop it.

never said they could but Ireland would be an outlier for what we are discussing here unconditional birthright citizenship.

NSAman

Wibbs wrote: »

I think trump is an orange moron and have from the start, and considered any Irish person using MAGA a thundering gobsh1te and have been quite clear about it. I also think a terrorist threat from Irish Muslims a low risk. Never mind that even radicals are largely given a free rein here, so likely won't want to poo on their own doorstep.

My issue is with the current politic of multiculturalism itself. It doesn't work very well, least of all for some migrant demographics. Its positives are at best vague and seem to boil down to exoticism and food and charity, the negatives are legion and demonstrable and are witnessed over many decades in every single European(and other) state where it's in play. We also have our own existing social problems, so why import more and worse ones? This is already happening in this country after the influx of non EU nationals 20 years ago. Africans are significantly more likely to be undereducated and unemployed than EU migrants and native Irish. These are facts.

The fact that many see multiculturalism working is either that they are blinkered to the social problems it causes or the idea that they are "seen" to do the right thing.

Multiculturalism does not work.

Trump is an idiot, there is no denying that fact. He has brought to the fore the mindless and baseless changing of American Demographics though.

The fact that many want unfettered and no-boarders policy to immigration is crazy IMHO and I speak as an immigrant.

While many say that the social welfare system in the States is non-existent, that is not entirely correct. Many come here who and are given, free health-care, free housing, free-education. This is something that the working class in America have to pay for. The poor in many cases cannot afford it. The middle-class is suffering (and dying out) and they are finding it even more difficult to afford the basics for their kids.

Before you say I am making stories up about this. I have personal experience of people here, using the system (which I cannot blame them for doing) to get ahead in life, none of whom have paid a cent into the tax system but get free health care, education and even transportation allowances.

There are communities in Maine who have been brought in (not naming origination) who have been given housing, social welfare and yet treat the community as a toilet. Yet, local people if caught short on a drive have been charged with public indecency.

I have never taken social welfare in any country (including Ireland). I have always worked to get ahead. I work hard for me and mine and expect to get nothing from the State.

Someone coming to Ireland as a refugee (and yes I have worked in Refugee camps) I have no issue with if they are genuine. Economic Migrants I DO have an issue with. You move to better yourself. Fine! Do not expect to better yourself at the expense of the local population. Do not expect a free house, free money and then expect to bring the rest of the family over.

The system is NOT designed to be a lifestyle. It is designed to help those who pay into it and the disadvantaged in society to survive.

Ireland has its fair share of people abusing the system. Should we not get our own exploiters (and yes they exist) organised first, before bringing in further social issues to the country?

iebamm2580

iebamm2580 wrote: »

never said they could but Ireland would be an outlier for what we are discussing here unconditional birthright citizenship.

And we're discussing whether the EU can stop Ireland, or any other country, from implementing such citizenship.

The answer being, no.

If a country wishes to do so they can do it.

Same story with our corporation tax rate. EU may not be happy with it, but tough.

Bonniedog

Deleted User wrote: »

There's only about a half dozen approaches wordlwide;

- Unconditional (eg. USA, Canada Mexico)
- Parental status (eg. Ireland, UK, Germany)
- Age/residency of child (eg. Finland France)
- Parental status or age/residency of child (eg. Belgium, Australia)
- Combination of parental status and age/residency of child (eg. Portugal, South Africa)
- Zero (eg. Russia, Sweden, Norway)

EU countries are in 5/6 approaches.

The EU cannot stop an EU country from implementing unconditional birthright citizenship. They may tut-tut about it but has no legal foundation to stop it.

There are no European states that grant birthright citizenship.
Of more than 200 recognised states in the UN, 35 do, and they are nearly all in Latin America.

None of the countries where most of those who would avail of birthright citizenship here - as they did before 2004 - grant birthright citizenship.

iebamm2580

Deleted User wrote: »

And we're discussing whether the EU can stop Ireland, or any other country, from implementing such citizenship.

The answer being, no.

If a country wishes to do so they can do it.

Same story with our corporation tax rate. EU may not be happy with it, but tough.

LOOK AT THE THREAD TITLE TO SEE WHAT WE ARE DISCUSSING.

Wibbs

V8 Interceptor wrote: »

That's because the Irish are wacist.

Indeed, though this means everywhere is racist against Africans as the stats trend the same in every western "multicultural" nation. Funny how they're magically not racist against East Asians and Indians, or indeed Africans who migrate legally to fill roles...

Bonniedog

Bonniedog wrote: »

You seriously think that the Irish state will go against the EU on this or anything else

Despite trying to for the last couple of decades, the EU Overlords haven't managed get us to change our corporation tax yet.


Anyway, I've introduced some reality into this land of make believe, do with it what ye will.

I'll let ye get back to it.

iebamm2580

iebamm2580 wrote: »

LOOK AT THE THREAD TITLE TO SEE WHAT WE ARE DISCUSSING.

I find reading through the actual thread to be a better indication of what is being discussed.

TomTomTim

Deleted User wrote: »

Despite trying to for the last couple of decades, the EU Overlords haven't managed get us to change our corporation tax yet.


Anyway, I've introduced some reality into this land of make believe, do with it what ye will.

I'll let ye get back to it.

:rolleyes:

iebamm2580

Deleted User wrote: »

I find reading through the actual thread to be a better indication of what is being discussed.

Yes i do find threads often do get de-railed by certain people.

ByTheSea2019

I'd be interested to know how it would work with family related rights e.g. reunification. If someone comes here just to have a baby, can the we end up with 30 more people off the back of that.

Bonniedog

Deleted User wrote: »

Despite trying to for the last couple of decades, the EU Overlords haven't managed get us to change our corporation tax yet.


Anyway, I've introduced some reality into this land of make believe, do with it what ye will.

I'll let ye get back to it.

You made a totally false claim regarding citizenship in other EU states that was designed to imply that some have birthright citizenship. None of them do.

As for this state's relationship with the EU, it is not difficult to discern who is the boss. You might recall two referendums that were overturned because they displeased Brussels?

Anyway, the fact is, if you are familiar with the 2004 debate, is that the EU placed huge pressure on Dublin to reverse the stupid 1998 decision.

fly_agaric

Deleted User wrote: »

Not a lick.

EU countries have a variety of approaches to citizenship.

Member states selling citizenship for money isn't good due to how it affects all others via freedom of movement (edit: we do that too, or have an investor "golden visa" programme I think)?
Can't see that having one country elect to give it away like this instead will be very popular with other EU members having more restrictive rules.

It's fairly stupid of Labour to ressurrect this cause IMO, but I suppose it must be highly popular with the party members. I imagine the view is "shure aren't we all citizens of the world"!

I'd like to be a fly on the wall when they brandish their "citizenship of the world" at immigration officials another [non EU] country they fancy living in!:pac:

biko

I know boards' threads are not representative of the Irish population but so far there doesn't seem to be any posts saying they agree with Labour on this.

biko

Tanzania has jus soli. Now I just need to convince herself to have our next sprog there.
The child becomes Tanzanian (how cool is that!) and we can then claim Tanzania passports as parents and all move there.

ByTheSea2019

biko wrote: »

Tanzania has jus soli. Now I just need to convince herself to have our next sprog there.
The child becomes Tanzanian (how cool is that!) and we can then claim Tanzania passports as parents and all move there.

Why stop with just the immediate family? Aunts, uncles, nieces, nephews, cousins and grandparents.

Kivaro

biko wrote: »

Tanzania has jus soli. Now I just need to convince herself to have our next sprog there.
The child becomes Tanzanian (how cool is that!) and we can then claim Tanzania passports as parents and all move there.

Will you and your extended family get very generous social welfare, free state-of-the-art housing, free healthcare, free education, and a plethora of other social welfare "entitlements" in Tanzania that a Tanzanian could get here in Ireland?
(Rhetorical)

Kivaro

ByTheSea2019 wrote: »

Why stop with just the immediate family? Aunts, uncles, nieces, nephews, cousins and grandparents.

I believe that the record number sought by one African asylum seeker for reunification was .................... 74. Yes, he wanted 74 other people to be allowed entry into Ireland based on his successful asylum claim.
Sinn Fein was the party who really pushed for the reunification policy to be enacted, which it was. They kept telling us (i.e. RTE) that "we need these people".

statesaver

Kivaro wrote: »

I believe that the record number sought by one African asylum seeker for reunification was .................... 74. Yes, he wanted 74 other people to be allowed entry into Ireland based on his successful asylum claim.
Sinn Fein was the party who really pushed for the reunification policy to be enacted, which it was. They kept telling us (i.e. RTE) that "we need these people".

Sought but were they granted ?