Three dead as woman beheaded in France

boardise

statesaver wrote: »

Cultural enrichment, surely. :mad:

This is chilling stuff.
Note how a marcher says ' freedom of speech , we can say what we want '
So how come this does not apply to e.g. 'Charlie Hebdo', or a history teacher using illustrative material etc.?

Strazdas

Deleted User wrote: »

No. No they don't. We usually would do, but no. The onus is on the immigrant to assimilate to the host nation, not the other way around.

A new arrival cannot fully integrate or assimilate without the full cooperation and assistance of the host country. Would you be able to integrate into a foreign culture if the host country basically flatly ignored you and offered you no assistance or practical help in assimilating?

Kaybaykwah

Here is what happened in Dijon, but also Roussillon, Vienne et Décines, France tonight. Hordes of young Turks doing the old Allah Akhbar, rock the casbah hit.


Tried linking to Twitter, but got blocked. Found it on a French thread. The author is Jim Cannolo, if you care to find out...

bb1234567

Strazdas wrote: »

A new arrival cannot fully integrate or assimilate without the full cooperation and assistance of the host country. Would you be able to integrate into a foreign culture if the host country basically flatly ignored you and offered you no assistance or practical help in assimilating?

Depend's on one's expectations, expecting my new host country to change it's law system to protect me from being offended by locals who have insulted my religion is wayywayyyy down my list of what I believe is necessary to allow me to integrate

You're also creating a false dychotomoy whereby apparenlty not pandering to this nonsense is the same as offering' no assistance or practical help' to anyone who has moved here. What should French, or European, governments be going out of their way to provide them the means to integrate anyway, out of interest, that they are not already? I genuinely don't know much about that so I am asking seriously, I really don't see what should be expected to be provided at a government level to migrant struggling to integrate though. Surely a more local level of intervention would be more appropriate

Strazdas

Strazdas wrote: »

A new arrival cannot fully integrate or assimilate without the full cooperation and assistance of the host country. Would you be able to integrate into a foreign culture if the host country basically flatly ignored you and offered you no assistance or practical help in assimilating?

Yes.

If I couldn't though, guess what I wouldn't do? Chop off heads of natives because someone was mean about my beliefs.

I've been to Muslim countries and respected their laws and customs.

John Frank Wilson

Kaybaykwah wrote: »

Here is what happened in Dijon, but also Roussillon, Vienne et Décines, France tonight. Hordes of young Turks doing the old Allah Akhbar, rock the casbah hit.


Tried linking to Twitter, but got blocked. Found it on a French thread. The author is Jim Cannolo, if you care to find out...

Shocking scenes!!

https://twitter.com/CannoloJ

John Frank Wilson

*Mostly non-aggressive Turks...

ILoveYourVibes

ThewhiteJesus wrote: »

it's awful, but then i completely disagree with showing pictures of Mohammed when it's a clearly a very personal and upsetting thing for any muslim to see. Why purposely try upset people, it's only one image and plenty of ways around it.
Does it mean it's ok to murder, of course not but it's looking for trouble imo

Fristly i don't agree with anyone boycotting france right now. I think the muslim world should be a lot more understanding than that.

Secondly its not just the idea it depicts god.

The cartoons are frequently racist. They depict muslims much in a similar way as jews in some ways.


Hairy physically unattractive ..as sexual predators etc.

Hebdo never admits it uses racist humour.

To me its more about that than anything.

I mean you don't supposedly show pics of Jesus or John the Baptist in islam. They had a protest outside a performance of salome for showing john the baptists head. And you have jesus in every church ...yet these dont often provoke attacks do they?
Any picture of god is not allowed. But you have god as a character in film.

What is the difference ? Its the lack of racism.

The Quran does not explicitly forbid images of Muhammad,

There are actually a lot of islamic films that DO depict Muhammad ..only without the racism.

Its sunni muslims that generally don't like the depictims ..shia muslims are diff tho ..some depictions for them are ok Shia islam is much more relaxed about said imagery these days.

No doubt they too would object to the racism and disrespect shown to arabs in hebdo.

Saying that some the muslim reaction to this has been insane. They constantly see themselves as victims and never aggressors.

John Frank Wilson

"...while a mother in her forties also succumbed to her injuries after seeking refuge in a nearby bar after telling paramedics: 'Tell my children that I love them'.".

The last words of a loving mother, I could almost cry!!

GT89

https://youtu.be/ngMdqVqKTW8
Brilliantly put by Anne Marie Waters summed up in a nutshell. Pity our politicians don't think on the same wavelength.

Kivaro

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes.

If I couldn't though, guess what I wouldn't do? Chop off heads of natives because someone was mean about my beliefs.

I've been to Muslim countries and respected their laws and customs.

There's a big difference though.
In Muslim countries you do not have a cohort of native "progressives" encouraging migrants to undermine the very fabric of the country that they move to. Look at how Ebun Joseph is used by RTE to pronounce the whole country racist. Look at the esteem that the Irish media hold Muslim Imams in Ireland, as if they have a major say in everything that happens in Ireland now. We live in an upside down world at the moment, where a small minority of "progressives" can make decisions that will impact the indigenous population for generations to come.

It is tragic that there is no real opposition to this insanity, with the end result of the country sleep walking into an abyss of misery and subservience to a minority view.

Kaybaykwah

John Frank Wilson wrote: »

Shocking scenes!!

https://twitter.com/CannoloJ

Yes, thank you for putting it out there.

The thing is, these guys are present in a lot of cities and regularly create havoc in downtowns. I remember a couple of months ago the battles between Turkish and Chechen gangs on the one hand, and muslims from the Maghreb on the other in Toulouse or another one of the big towns.

John Frank Wilson

John Frank Wilson wrote: »

...I could almost cry!!

And I did, for the record - one solitary tear.

ExMachina1000

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Agree. Identity politics and social media have fragmented populations. Every "tribe" is convinced they are righteous and the "other side" are evil and out to ruin their lives. No politician seems to want to unite people because politics has become a sport. "My team needs to win" by any means necessary.

I though Covid would be the one common denominator but even that has become a battleground. Maybe an alien invasion will be the only thing to unite us.

Nah just like all things in nature its survival of the fittest. Eat or be eaten. Tribalism is in our DNA.
It essentially comes down to you are either with us or against us. Macron will go to war with Islamic extremists in his country and in return Islamic extremists will maim, murder and attack European citizens. This is the beginning of a new wave of violence

It never ends

Strazdas

Strazdas wrote: »

A new arrival cannot fully integrate or assimilate without the full cooperation and assistance of the host country. Would you be able to integrate into a foreign culture if the host country basically flatly ignored you and offered you no assistance or practical help in assimilating?

Actually, I have done so previously. Most people who live extensively in a foreign country have to do so.

After a decade of living/working in China, I speak almost fluent Mandarin (although my reading/writing still sucks), including two local dialects (Shaanxi, and Chongqing), I've done the legwork in understanding their cultural norms, and what's more, what are the things I should avoid doing (if I want a degree of acceptance). I've also acquired a range of networking contacts to help me in my daily life, and I help out where I can to build up goodwill (and a positive reputation).

Just as I've done similar in most foreign countries I've lived in.... apart from learning the language beyond the basic, but in China, I needed Mandarin more for daily living, whereas other countries had a greater use of English.

Apart from learning a language, adjusting to living in most foreign countries is relatively easy... if you're willing to put the cultural norms/expectations of your own country in the background while you focus on the present. Anyone who is fully focused on their own culture being superior (and wanting to show others that it's the case) won't last very long living abroad...

Lastly, integration is very different from assimilation. These are not terms to pass around without due consideration. I can integrate in Asia (to a degree), but there's no chance of assimilation. It's just not possible. Whereas in Europe, you have the opportunity for both.. even nicer, a choice between both, without any serious downsides from choosing one or the other.

Cluedo Monopoly

old_aussie wrote: »

Muslims have right to kill French: Mahathir

Hours after a muslim man killed three people in France, Former Malaysia PM Mahathir Mohamad has claimed Muslims have a right to ‘kill millions of French people’.

Looks like the Barbary Coast wars and the Gates of Vienna are about to flare up again.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/10/29/muslims-have-right-to-punish-french-says-malaysias-mahathir

Strange thing for him to say. Here is the full statement.

“Muslims have a right to be angry and to kill millions of French people for the massacres of the past. But by and large, the Muslims have not applied the ‘eye for an eye’ law. Muslims don’t. The French shouldn’t,” Mahathir said in a blog post on Thursday

I can guess but I wonder what particular massacres he is referring to.

bb1234567

Is that Malaysian PM doing alright? Like that statement just makes zero sense, sounds like a war veteran with advanced dementia

biko

On one thing I agree with Erdogan:

There is no moderate Islam.

Cluedo Monopoly

bb1234567 wrote: »

Is that Malaysian PM doing alright? Like that statement just makes zero sense, sounds like a war veteran with advanced dementia

Former PM. He is 95.

smurgen

biko wrote: »

Ex-prime minister of Malaysia...

https://nypost.com/2020/10/29/malaysia-pm-muslims-have-right-to-kill-millions-of-french-people/

What in God's name is going on? On the one side we have these extremists egged on by the likes of Erdogen. On the other hand we have far right lunatics who will secretly love this mayhem. Solidarity with the people today who lost their lives. I hope that free speech is maintained no matter what.

biko

How do we prevent it from ever happening again?
Realistic answers only.

ExMachina1000

biko wrote: »

How do we prevent it from ever happening again?
Realistic answers only.

You cant. Or we cant. Its inevitable. There is now a global push to boycott French goods in the Muslim world

raclle

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

You cant. Or we cant. Its inevitable. There is now a global push to boycott French goods in the Muslim world

Can they not start deporting and stop immigration?

John Frank Wilson

I happen to think with every single attack, more eyes open. With every untimely death, there are a hundred timely births - and by births I mean 'eyes that open to what's going on, for the first time'. With every beheading, the indefensible becomes a little bit more indefensible. It becomes more difficult to say things like 'but not all Muslims are like this', or 'only a tiny percentage of Muslims do these things'. Ordinary people become less afraid to say 'no, this is not OK', or 'no - I don't want my mother, who led a happy life, who loved and laughed - and cared, and nourished - and smiled... I don't want her head to be removed from her body - while she prays in a chapel'.

So... for now, they can celebrate their wins. But I do have hope, I believe enough people will eventually care, it'll probably be many, many... beheadings from now - but they will. And the politicians will surely follow - they will have no choice but to, their pockets depend on it.

So... until that time comes - stay safe, and... wash your hands!

Danno

Strazdas wrote: »

A new arrival cannot fully integrate or assimilate without the full cooperation and assistance of the host country. Would you be able to integrate into a foreign culture if the host country basically flatly ignored you and offered you no assistance or practical help in assimilating?

I wouldn't go to a country to livewhere there was little welcome, let alone start beheading the locals for being unwelcoming.

But yeah. it's the European man's fault. :rolleyes:

john123470

biko wrote: »

How do we prevent it from ever happening again?
Realistic answers only.

Its very simple. Islam's avowed (unspoken) goal is world domination. Sure, they come here and, for most part, are peaceful. They'll send their kids to school, find work. Then will come the 2nd and 3rd generations who will want more rights. Their rights will (inevitably) conflict with your rights and youre going to have confrontation.

Muslims primarily believe in Sharia over State laws.

We shd be a lot more wary about what exactly takes place in our own central mosques eg Clonskeagh mosque which has figured on the media over recent years.

Our politicians dont really care - no surprises there but we have us a problem ..

Not all Muslims are terrorists and many will deplore the recent murders .. but why are they not out marching on the streets .. disowning it ? What is stopping them - fear ?

We got us an elephant in the bedroom and its not leaving anytime soon

briany

What drives young Muslim men to do these kinds of things?

Keeping in mind that Muslim populations have been living in European countries for a long time. In the UK, for example, you've had significant amounts of Pakistani Muslims living there for decades and never once in the 20th century did I hear of any member of that community randomly slaying people in the streets as part of an extremist religious ideology. That changed on 7/7 and subsequent attacks. Why? What changed? Does anyone have a good analytical breakdown beyond Islam=stoneage?

Anyone who perpetetrates these types of attacks should have the very fullest weight of the law brought down upon them, but unless we drill down into the reasons for the phenomenon, things probably aren't going to improve.

smellyoldboot

briany wrote: »

What drives young Muslim men to do these kinds of things?

Keeping in mind that Muslim populations have been living in European countries for a long time. In the UK, for example, you've had significant amounts of Pakistani Muslims living there for decades and never once in the 20th century did I hear of any member of that community randomly slaying people in the streets as part of an extremist religious ideology. That changed on 7/7 and subsequent attacks. Why? What changed? Does anyone have a good analytical breakdown beyond Islam=stoneage?

Anyone who perpetetrates these types of attacks should have the very fullest weight of the law brought down upon them, but unless we drill down into the reasons for the phenomenon, things probably aren't going to improve.

Horny ugly social pariahs buying into the 40 or however many virgins dream because it suits them, because they will never amount to any more than a weird shiftless waster in a modern European economy.

BPKS

briany wrote: »

What drives young Muslim men to do these kinds of things?

Keeping in mind that Muslim populations have been living in European countries for a long time. In the UK, for example, you've had significant amounts of Pakistani Muslims living there for decades and never once in the 20th century did I hear of any member of that community randomly slaying people in the streets as part of an extremist religious ideology. That changed on 7/7 and subsequent attacks. Why? What changed? Does anyone have a good analytical breakdown beyond Islam=stoneage?

Anyone who perpetetrates these types of attacks should have the very fullest weight of the law brought down upon them, but unless we drill down into the reasons for the phenomenon, things probably aren't going to improve.

What drives them to do these sort of things.

Well the Internet for one.

In the 60s the son of a small farmer or shop owner in Pakistan wasn't going to go to Europe with the sole mission of decapitating some woman over something he was brainwashed into believing was evil.

When the Pakistanis and Indians came to England for example in the 50s, 60s and 70s they did so to better themselves from the poverty they were living in at home. That was the sole aim in why they emigrated and many did so successfully.

Its almost 20 years now since 9/11 and a generation of Muslims have grown up watching what those people did and like it or not they are heroes in a lot of people's eye.

What we saw in France over the last few weeks is going to be the norm. There's nothing much that can be done to stop it, that horse bolted a long time ago.

briany

smellyoldboot wrote: »

Horny ugly social pariahs buying into the 40 or however many virgins dream because it suits them, because they will never amount to any more than a weird shiftless waster in a modern European economy.

This just sounds a bit facetious to me. Look into the backgrounds of the types of people who commit these attacks and you'll probably find a diverse range of life situations. Single or married. Unemployed or business owner. Illiterate or holder of university degree.