Why is it so complicated to daily find out the ages of those who passed?

milli milli

Xxxx

ShineOn7 wrote: »

On the Irish news?

I don't remember that

During the bad days of the pandemic, they would show names & pictures of the people who died beforethe 6pm news.

milli milli

milli milli wrote: »

Xxxx

Please ignore the Xxxx - the post above wouldn’t allow me to quote another post, so I added some letters. And then was unable to edit out the Xxxx

JustAThought

ShineOn7 wrote: »

Out of 5 million people? :rolleyes:

Whatever about them not providing underlying conditions, the ages should 100% be given to us without having to dig deep into the HSPC site

There is a hidden policy of NOT testing deaths that were ‘expected’ in nursing homes. No doubt the figures should be much higher in that bracket - they are being casually suppressed and disguised.

They are also not doing PM covid deaths so if you doe inna car crash due to exhaustion or in a farming accident due to collapsing and not being found and had covid it would not be listed as a covid death or covid related.

Atlantic Dawn

JustAThought wrote: »

They are also not doing PM covid deaths so if you doe inna car crash due to exhaustion or in a farming accident due to collapsing and not being found and had covid it would not be listed as a covid death or covid related.

And rightfully so. Someone who crashes their car and dies but had Aids wouldn't have Aids listed as their cause of death.

Pete_Cavan

JustAThought wrote: »

There is a hidden policy of NOT testing deaths that were ‘expected’ in nursing homes. No doubt the figures should be much higher in that bracket - they are being casually suppressed and disguised.

I'd say the opposite is most likely the case, deaths from Covid are being over-reported due to lack of testing. Many days we have deaths denotified and the total deaths reduced, although this largely gets ignored (we haven't had any denotifications for the past two weeks for some reason). I haven't seen any reason given for continuously incorrectly reporting deaths due to Covid after all these months but I can only presume deaths are being put down to Covid until proven otherwise. Wasn't there also stats during the summer showing Covid deaths were being over-represented based on excess deaths?

ShineOn7

JustAThought wrote: »

There is a hidden policy of NOT testing deaths that were ‘expected’ in nursing homes.

Source on this?

This is new to me

I thought the reason our mortality numbers were so high in Wave 1 was because of all those who passed away in Nursing Homes

normanoffside

The indo reporting that at least 24 of the deaths this month are nursing homes.

https://m.independent.ie/world-news/coronavirus/death-rate-is-set-to-climb-as-second-wave-threatens-care-homes-39658189.html

ShineOn7

normanoffside wrote: »

The indo reporting that at least 24 of the deaths this month are nursing homes.

https://m.independent.ie/world-news/coronavirus/death-rate-is-set-to-climb-as-second-wave-threatens-care-homes-39658189.html

I mentioned this yesterday


Laura on Reddit Ireland spot on with stats again

bodhrandude

This was posted on the main Covid thread, which might help explain the ages question in relation to deaths. https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/br/b-cdc/covid-19deathsandcasesseries14/

ShineOn7

bodhrandude wrote: »

This was posted on the main Covid thread, which might help explain the ages question in relation to deaths. https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/br/b-cdc/covid-19deathsandcasesseries14/

That's a great link BD, thanks. It's much clearer than the Chinese Algebra of other government websites

I've a few bits on today so I'll have a full read of it later

But this is the first part jumping out

Underlying Conditions

There have been 1,531 deaths of people with underlying conditions from 14,938 confirmed cases with underlying conditions. The median age of those dying with underlying conditions is 83.


There were 1,417 deaths of people with underlying conditions in the over 65 age group. Of the 129 deaths in the 25-64 age group, 112 had underlying conditions.

Before we get too optimistic, the confusing part comes in is what exactly they're counting as an underlying condition

Some countries are counting mild asthma and high blood pressure as you having an underlying condition and some aren't. Where does Ireland stand with this?

These are the questions journalists should be asking at the briefings, as opposed to queries about weddings and Zoom quizzes

ShineOn7

bodhrandude wrote: »

This was posted on the main Covid thread, which might help explain the ages question in relation to deaths. https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/br/b-cdc/covid-19deathsandcasesseries14/

I've looked a bit more into the stats here Bodran and I think I'm reading it right

From 17th of July upto the 16th of this month:

Aged 65-79: 8 people passed away

Aged 80+: 13 people passed away


I'm not seeing any mortalities in any other age group for this period

Would be great if Da Silva or SpookWoman could give this site a look over too to see if they come to the same conclusion. Both users have a great eye for data and stats

ShineOn7

The CSO website still only goes to October 16th https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-covid19/covid-19informationhub/health/covid-19deathsandcasesstatistics/


Da Silva; where are you getting your more recent data?

fits

ShineOn7 wrote: »

I've looked a bit more into the stats here Bodran and I think I'm reading it right

From 17th of July upto the 16th of this month:

Aged 65-79: 8 people passed away

Aged 80+: 13 people passed away


I'm not seeing any mortalities in any other age group for this period

Would be great if Da Silva or SpookWoman could give this site a look over too to see if they come to the same conclusion. Both users have a great eye for data and stats

I know of someone <20 who died of Covid last week.

ShineOn7

fits wrote: »

I know of someone <20 who died of Covid last week.

Very sorry to hear

martingriff

Zebra3 wrote: »

All the road deaths.

Remove all vehicles from the road.

Problem solved.

Or do those lives not count?

But they can't stop some death or people getting even Tony said that last night. Actually when asked what level 5 he did not once mention death he mentioned keeping hospitals and schools running as they were important.

As for road fatalities, it is not feasible to take away cars. What we do is to minimise accidents by not letting does on learner permits drive unaccompanied, having to pass a test,speed limits and many other driving laws and if you break them you get penalised

thefinalstage

fits wrote: »

I know of someone <20 who died of Covid last week.

She had pre existing issues though..

Ficheall

Zebra3 wrote: »

All the road deaths.

Remove all vehicles from the road.

Problem solved.

Or do those lives not count?

For sure, aye. And you'd save about a tenth of the amount of people.
So people would not be able to drive for the whole year, to save a tenth of the amount of people saved (theoretically - the efficacy is debatable) by adhering to some unenforced restrictions for a few months (or however this ends up spread out).

Can you imagine the amount of whinging then?
That is assuming you don't have some "hierarchy of deaths" or whatever you call it, and want to claim one car death is equal to ten covid deaths.

Are you going to suggest you wouldn't complain every bit as loudly if the gov't told you you weren't allowed to drive for a year?

bb1234567

Whelo79 wrote: »

No it's not, but let's protect the vulnerable, safeguard them, and let the rest of us get back to normality. We can't go in and out of lockdown forever.

Let's flip your question, is a few hundred lives of those 70+ worth more than our economy, more than the lives of over 4 million citizens who are being turned upside down, movements restricted, many battling mental health issues etc etc etc?

I get what you mean but really your comment that we should 'safe guard' them is completely insincere. Basically you mean put them out of sight of mind, keep them safe as long as it is of no convenience to me whatsoever.

Not that I necessarily disagree wtih your second point, but I'm just pointing out it's a meaningless sentiment to say they should be protected while we continue as normal. Vulnerable people cannot be proected from the virus when it is circulating in the community at a high level, as we have seen now with further nursing home outbreaks since the second wave began. Clearly the 'safe guarding' of the elderly and ill means the rest of society has to maintain some level of sacrifice. To say that the rest of society should forget and move on is basically saying you don't really care if those vulnerable people catch the virus, but don't want to sound insensitive by saying as much.And yeh you might say oh but it's the fault of the negligent nursing home staff or carers of elderly, but in reality they are clearly making great effors to suppress infection among these vulnerable communities and it still doesnt work. Public effort is needed for this to work effectively.

It's not that outrageous though, we do prioritise the convenience and speed of many daily activites and privileges over lives of others all the time every day . We buy cheap clothes and food from our supermarkets that leads to starvation and halting of improvements to quality of worker labour in the developing world, leads to many deaths, yet it's something we have chosen to ignore and not consciously think about in favour of the convenience it offers us. So there are massive hyproctiical inconsistencies in our approach to value of life with this COVID outbreak in comparison to many other issues.But yeh, at least call it for what it is.

martingriff

Can I ask what people may when they say let the rest of us get back to normal

ShineOn7

Table 3: Specific underlying medical conditions in individuals with confirmed COVID-19 by setting (as a proportion of cases where there is an underlying condition), up to midnight 17/10/2020

The data is out there, they just choose to not mention anything like this at the briefings


https://www.hpsc.ie/a-z/respiratory/coronavirus/novelcoronavirus/surveillance/underlyingconditionsreports/Underlying&#37;20conditions summary_1.0.pdf

ShineOn7

720 cases and 5 deaths today

And yet again no one at the Presser is asking about ages and underlying symptoms of the 5 people today

I'm listening in here and the current "journalist" is asking if kids should celebrate Halloween ffs

Jokeshop journalism at the briefings again

agoodpunt

the country has been thrown under a bus by our hopeless health service who have swapped trollies for a lockdown
last time I was in an a&e about 12 years ago some mid aged bitch of a nurse was doing all in her power to enforce a work to rule even thought earlier news report was a union official saying no A&E distruption

Forgive my not mentioning the pandemic and rip to those who have past but NPET are aggorrant smug incompetent gitts who are scaring the bejesus out of people using de media RTE have stopped watching it when a case = a sniffile ramp it up to an ICU entry level and dont include any info that might only remind us that it takes the weakest and those with underlying issues 99.5% of the time seperate the vurnable now by force if necessary instead of breaking up the 1000s of so called parties
Where is the business community voice?
The current approach is a disgrace and we will never recover if we dont stop it! rant over

spookwoman

Ref underlying problems, protecting the vulnerable and letting the "healthy go back to normality".

If we are using that then we also need to start taking into account race, genetics, poverty and access to healthcare.
2019 696,300 people were over the age of 65. Using that as a base with the 2016 census data there are a lot of people with underlying problems just in the age group.

In 2016 9% of males and 50.1% of females aged 65 and over reported suffering from a chronic illness or health problem in 2016. In people over the age of 75, 41.7% and 43.9% of males and females respectively reported some or severe limitation in usual activities due to health problems (Table 2.2 and Table 2.3). That is data from the census and is relying on people telling the truth, plus we know men are less likely to go to the doctor never mind say there are having health problems. https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/4f8096-health-in-ireland-key-trends-2018/#:~:text=9%25%20of%20males%20and%2050.1,Table%202.2%20and%20Table%202.3).

Reality is we do not know what the numbers are regarding those with underlying conditions, their genetics, level of poverty and their access to healthcare. We cannot section off one part of society becuase they are more at risk, the numbers are too high and you cannot stop the virus getting into that population when it is let run free in the so called healthy. We heard a few of the oh they would have died anyways but if we use the numbers below, estimated 1.07m , is that an acceptable number?


https://www.hse.ie/eng/services/publications/corporate/hse-corporate-plan-population-health-and-demographics-november-2019.pdf

Chronic Disease
The prevalence of chronic disease continues to increase due to a reduction in mortality from chronic
diseases but also due to increasing incidence of chronic disease in the population.

Children (0-14 years)
• In 2009: 11% of 9-year-olds had a chronic illness or disability14 . Respiratory illnesses for example
asthma were the most common, accounting for almost half of all illnesses (47%) followed by
mental and behavioural conditions (17%) and skin conditions (5%)
• Boys were more likely than girls to be affected by a mental and behavioural condition (21%
compared to 11%)
• Chronic illness or disability was more heavily concentrated among children from lower socioeconomic backgrounds.

Adults (15-64 years)
• It is estimated that over 1.07m people over the age of 18 years in Ireland currently have one or
more chronic diseases including cancer (90,000), cardiovascular disease (250,000), respiratory
disease (440,000) and diabetes (190,000)9,10
• In 2017, four chronic conditions (heart failure, asthma, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease
(COPD) and diabetes) accounted for 27.31% of all acute hospital bed days
14 Growing Up In Ireland. The Health of 9 Year Olds, July 2009
10
• The most common newly diagnosed cancers in Ireland for the years 2013 – 2015 were for men:
prostate, colorectal and lung and for women: breast, lung and colorectal. The next most
common new cancer for both genders is melanoma
• In 2017, 28,388 people were recorded as having an intellectual disability (ID). 7,500 people with
ID were in receipt in full-time residential services. 27,902 people availed of at least a one-day
programme and 139 people were residing in psychiatric hospitals

ShineOn7

Great post SpookWoman

Would you have the data on ages and/or underlying symptoms of those who passed since October 16th?


I can't find past that date here https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/br/b-cdc/covid-19deathsandcasesseries14/

ShineOn7

From Spookwoman's posts in the daily thread

Recent data on the table in the bottom right here

spookwoman

Still getting my head around the cso number the sodding ages don't match up fully with the Epidemiology ages.

CSO Epi
0- 14
15-24 15-34
25-44 25-44
45-64 45-64
65-79 65-74
80+ 75-84
85+

CSO 16/10/2020 EPI for up to midnight the 17th no report for the 16th because they are 2 days behind and dont report at weekend. Report published on the 28th is data for midnight the 25th.
15-24 .. Less than 5 1
25-44 23 7+13 = 20
45-64 106 31+82 =113
65-79 459
80+ 1028 265+629+822=1716
Not Specified .. Less than 5 2
CSO uses confirmed cases not sure about Epi.

ShineOn7

Update:

Of the 96 deaths in October to date, 34 were in nursing homes

So that's roughly a third this month, whereas in Wave One I recall there been at least two thirds of the passings were in nursing homes

ShineOn7

Latest data from SpookWoman

Zebra3

Ficheall wrote: »

For sure, aye. And you'd save about a tenth of the amount of people.
So people would not be able to drive for the whole year, to save a tenth of the amount of people saved (theoretically - the efficacy is debatable) by adhering to some unenforced restrictions for a few months (or however this ends up spread out).

Can you imagine the amount of whinging then?
That is assuming you don't have some "hierarchy of deaths" or whatever you call it, and want to claim one car death is equal to ten covid deaths.

Are you going to suggest you wouldn't complain every bit as loudly if the gov't told you you weren't allowed to drive for a year?

Yet we're shutting down our economy for a small numbers of deaths as it is.

Why would I complain about not being able to drive for a year?

lawred2

Whelo79 wrote: »

Because they don't want us knowing that they are all 70+ and had underlying conditions. They want us afraid, they want us thinking that you, I, our brother, mother, sister, father could all drop dead tonorrow if we catch it tomorrow. Rule by fear.

I'm biting...

Ruling by fear to what end?