Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VI - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

charlie14

Dionaibh wrote: »

I know it sounds a bit odd, but the alternative of forcing 'relaxed' people to endure the present tyranny and misery is extremely cruel.

Basically it'd be allowing people who want to live normally and take risks do that. I don't see what the problem is. The new normal will still be there for people who don't want to register as 'relaxed'.

With the greatest respect, and in all fairness you did at least propose an idea, but it does not sound just a bit odd. On so many levels it sounds completely bonkers.

douglashyde

Beasty wrote: »

I've seen the figures. I've seen the graphs. I've discussed points extensively in this forum. So he's gained a "populist" following by feeding people information he feels they will buy in to. He has no expertise on viruses though, as I have none.

I do know how easy it is to present numbers (and graphs) in a way that supports a position someone is trying to get across rather than an unbiased presentation of facts. I have spent a lifetime dealing with numbers and know very well how they can be manipulated/abused

I know who I believe - scientists who are specialists in viruses, not chemical engineers. And there are plenty of virus specialists across the World who seem to adopt differing positions to Cummins - and their predictions made over how this virus may develop in the early days are being borne out now

I too have spent a career reviewing numbers & data and I fully agree it's easy to position data to make particular points to support positions.

Ironically I believe NHPET are positioning data to tell a specific story. NHPET are not the 'new world order', they are a group of public servant doctors tasked only to deal with COVID and I believe they are doing just that. I also believe that if their recommendations are taken as gospel they will save a small number of lives (vastly older and in ill health - statistical speaking) from COVID related deaths.

But I also believe that the cost of saving these lives will be at the cost of younger lives (mental heath, lack of health screening, alcoholism) . In addition they will continue reduce quality of life (unemployment, failed small businesses businesses, canceled life events).

drunkmonkey

The nursing home scandal shouldn't happen again, well it could as we haven't had a proper public inquiry into it so not all lessons learned.
The people responsible are still at large demanding restrictions with no evidence to back any of them up. Certainly no measurable outcomes or evidence for implemention for any singular restrictions were produced by Government or NPHET to my knowledge.

We can't look back at the start and base current projections on what happened then, we weren't testing at the same levels and won't make that monumental screw up with care homes again, that one thing causing a huge spike in deaths was completely unavoidable. It's shaped all our decision since with the threat of it happening again.

People wondering how this ends, what are we trying to achieve, not over run the hospitals, it doesn't appear like that's going to happen.

It ends when the media deicides, protesting isn't really an option and rival politicans seem incapable or unwilling to reign in the Government or NPHET.

patnor1011

Jorge Limited Maze wrote: »

The hyperbole has reached new levels today. A mask causing irreversible damage, I have never heard such nonsense. Were the masks made out of barbed wire?

It is fantastic to see those wrongly not required to wear masks still doing the right thing and wearing them I applaud the parents.

You failed to realize he was talking about psychological damage. Some people got mentally damaged to the extent that they use mask even while outdoors or in their own house. Other people got mentally damaged that they see so much of danger they call for closing down borders.
A lot of people are afraid of something which is not going to happen. That is the worst part of it.

Dionaibh

charlie14 wrote: »

With the greatest respect, and in all fairness you did at least propose an idea, but it does not sound just a bit odd. On so many levels it sounds completely bonkers.

It may seem a bit odd at first, but I think it would work. As it would be temporary, 'relaxed' people would temporarily live among each other. Shops, public transport, cinemas and so on would all be relaxed and the employees all registered as 'relaxed'. I don't see what the problem is.

Dionaibh

patnor1011 wrote: »

You failed to realize he was talking about psychological damage. Some people got mentally damaged to the extent that they use mask even while outdoors or in their own house. Other people got mentally damaged that they see so much of danger they call for closing down borders.
A lot of people are afraid of something which is not going to happen. That is the worst part of it.

Indeed, it was the psychological damage I was referring to. Irreversible, in my opinion.

I know propaganda is a powerful weapon, but I can't get my head around how grown men and women could be terrified over an over-hyped social media driven pandemic. I just can't get there when I consider people missing cancer screenings because of a virus. Grown men and women doing such things. Mind boggling.

charlie14

Dionaibh wrote: »

It may seem a bit odd at first, but I think it would work. As it would be temporary, 'relaxed' people would temporarily live among each other. Shops, public transport, cinemas and so on would all be relaxed and the employees all registered as 'relaxed'. I don't see what the problem is.

So there would be no shops, public transport, or cinemas for the "non-relaxed".
How`s that going to work, and how is this, to quote Albert Reynolds "temporary little arrangement" going to end and how.

patnor1011

Gradius wrote: »

Thats an impossibility.

However, extending on that same rough idea IS a very plausible solution. Isolate the country.

Severe, zero tolerance lockdown for a short period of time to eradicate the disease from the country. Then we could all go back to normal as a country.

Nobody in, nobody out.

That's the best plan of action, hands down. Nothing else is remotely close in terms of potential efficacy.

The only thing wrong with your "plan" is that you can not eradicate the disease from the country. Zero chance.

charlie14

patnor1011 wrote: »

The only thing wrong with your "plan" is that you can not eradicate the disease from the country. Zero chance.

At least the poster, as did one other put forward a proposal.
All everyone else here seems capable of is bitching and moaning.

hynesie08

charlie14 wrote: »

At least the poster, as did one other put forward a proposal.
All everyone else here seems capable of is bitching and moaning.

We could all move to the moon, the disease might not survive in zero g........

It's as realistic as any quarantine the country ideas.

charlie14

hynesie08 wrote: »

We could all move to the moon, the disease might not survive in zero g........

It's as realistic as any quarantine the country ideas.

Is that your proposal or like practically everyone else here just another bitch and moan ?

patnor1011

charlie14 wrote: »

At least the poster, as did one other put forward a proposal.
All everyone else here seems capable of is bitching and moaning.

Proposal of fantasy?
How do you propose to erradicate virus exactly? Corona viruses (and this covid one too) come in various hosts. What do you propose - to kill all wildlife around us so we will live happily behind our iron wall?

Come on bitching and moaning?

I get it it is too late and some people are tired, some perhaps impaired.

Real Donald Trump

patnor1011 wrote: »

The only thing wrong with your "plan" is that you can not eradicate the disease from the country. Zero chance.

Exactly, I wish people would finally understand this but it seems like they never will. Sure China is even having a few flare ups atm.

patnor1011

There you have it. Vaccine pope Bill Gates thinks we will have to live several years under restrictions, lockdowns, and social distancing possibly even a lifetime until the second generation of vaccines become available. In other words, he admitted that the first generation is not going to be very successful.
Must be awful news for all "just-wait-till-vaccine-come" believers.

*****************************
Technology tycoon Bill Gates said life can get back to normal only when a second generation of Covid-19 vaccines is widely available and the virus is eradicated worldwide – a higher bar than was set for any disease in history.
"The only way we'll get completely back to normal is by having, maybe not the first generation of vaccines, but eventually a vaccine that is super-effective, and that a lot of the people take, and that we get the disease eliminated on a global basis," Gates said Sunday in an interview on NBC's Meet the Press program. "That is where we can finally start taking all the problems that have been created -- in education, mental health -- and start to build back in a positive way."

According to that standard, Americans might need to live for years, or for life, under social-distancing guidelines and other Covid-19 restrictions. It's certainly gloomier than the assessment Gates gave in a Fox interview last month, when he said progress on vaccines might make it possible for a return to normalcy in the US by the summer of 2021. He said he expects several of the first generation of vaccines to get emergency approval by early next year.

charlie14

patnor1011 wrote: »

Proposal of fantasy?
How do you propose to erradicate virus exactly? Corona viruses (and this covid one too) come in various hosts. What do you propose - to kill all wildlife around us so we will live happily behind our iron wall?

Come on bitching and moaning?

I get it it is too late and some people are tired, some perhaps impaired.

I didn`t say I expect someone to come up with a plan to eradicate a worldwide virus pandemic.
Just that rather than bitching and moaning about every damn thing, a proposal that they believe, from where we presently are, the best way for this country going forward in dealing with the virus.

Dionaibh

charlie14 wrote: »

So there would be no shops, public transport, or cinemas for the "non-relaxed".
How`s that going to work, and how is this, to quote Albert Reynolds "temporary little arrangement" going to end and how.

The opposite. Public transport, cinemas, shops for both the 'relaxed' and the 'non-relaxed'. If the 'non-relaxed' were happy to live alongside 'relaxed' people then it'd just be that the 'relaxed' would live normally (no masks in shops, on the bus) alongside the 'non-relaxed'. They'd go to the same shops, but the new normal rules and restrictions wouldn't apply to the 'relaxed', who, in return, would agreed not to seek medical care in the event of their getting the virus. They'd accept the risk.

That's scenario (a). Scenario (b) would be necessary if the 'non-relaxed' weren't prepared to live alongside the 'relaxed'. In this scenario 'relaxed' persons would, with the support of the government, temporarily live in a part of the country that was for 'relaxed' persons only. The shopkeepers, bus drivers and so would all be registered as 'relaxed'. So you'd have part of the country that would be normal, and the rest new normal.

I think it's a great idea.

douglashyde

One number which really stood out to me recently (credit to Ivor Cummins).

Of the first 1650 (we're at 1827 now) deaths - 60% were never hospitalised and only 80 or 4.7% were admitted to Incentive Care.

Doctors and Nurses don't let people die who have a fraction of a chance of having some remaining quality life left in them and I think it's fair to say that the 94.3% of people who sadly died with COVID were likely near the end of their lives.

Dionaibh

patnor1011 wrote: »

There you have it. Vaccine pope Bill Gates thinks we will have to live several years under restrictions, lockdowns, and social distancing possibly even a lifetime until the second generation of vaccines become available. In other words, he admitted that the first generation is not going to be very successful.
Must be awful news for all "just-wait-till-vaccine-come" believers.

*****************************
Technology tycoon Bill Gates said life can get back to normal only when a second generation of Covid-19 vaccines is widely available and the virus is eradicated worldwide – a higher bar than was set for any disease in history.
"The only way we'll get completely back to normal is by having, maybe not the first generation of vaccines, but eventually a vaccine that is super-effective, and that a lot of the people take, and that we get the disease eliminated on a global basis," Gates said Sunday in an interview on NBC's Meet the Press program. "That is where we can finally start taking all the problems that have been created -- in education, mental health -- and start to build back in a positive way."

According to that standard, Americans might need to live for years, or for life, under social-distancing guidelines and other Covid-19 restrictions. It's certainly gloomier than the assessment Gates gave in a Fox interview last month, when he said progress on vaccines might make it possible for a return to normalcy in the US by the summer of 2021. He said he expects several of the first generation of vaccines to get emergency approval by early next year.

And people thought, and still think, this was about a virus.

But his friend Fauci said Americans could resume their normal lives in the second half of next year. They all say different things depending on what day it is.

And, for some reason, Mr Gates has decided that he gets to decide when people can live again. Another reason to add to the many reasons why people should consider leaving the West. Mr Gates is really talking about the West when he says such things.

NegativeCreep

Gradius wrote: »

Quarantine the country.

A vaccine is very unlikely to arrive anytime soon. If it arrives at all, the uptake is going to render it near ineffective.

We need to act now in order to salvage what's left, because make no mistake, this is going to be disaster with a capital D by next Summer. And the only plan of action that has a hope of working, of providing an exit, is quarantining the country.

Quarantine the country for what reason? Yeah we have high case numbers but how many of those people are actually sick? If we have to quarantine the country because 32 people are in icu and and handful of people are dying every other day then there is something seriously wrong with the health service in this country.

That plan is throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Real Donald Trump

Gates is truly deluded if he thinks people are going to put up with restrictions for years. It is one more reason why America needs a red wave come Nov 3rd :cool:

charlie14

Dionaibh wrote: »

The opposite. Public transport, cinemas, shops for both the 'relaxed' and the 'non-relaxed'. If the 'non-relaxed' were happy to live alongside 'relaxed' people then it'd just be that the 'relaxed' would live normally (no masks in shops, on the bus) alongside the 'non-relaxed'. They'd go to the same shops, but the new normal rules and restrictions wouldn't apply to the 'relaxed', who, in return, would agreed not to seek medical care in the event of their getting the virus. They'd accept the risk.

That's scenario (a). Scenario (b) would be necessary if the 'non-relaxed' weren't prepared to live alongside the 'relaxed'. In this scenario 'relaxed' persons would, with the support of the government, temporarily live in a part of the country that was for 'relaxed' persons only. The shopkeepers, bus drivers and so would all be registered as 'relaxed'. So you'd have part of the country that would be normal, and the rest new normal.

I think it's a great idea.

At this stage for various reasons I think, at the very least, one of us is stoned. Not having a go at you or your proposal, but it is just one of those conversations there is very little other explanation for.

sabat

Dionaibh wrote: »

And people thought, and still think, this was about a virus.

But his friend Fauci said Americans could resume their normal lives in the second half of next year. They all say different things depending on what day it is.

And, for some reason, Mr Gates has decided that he gets to decide when people can live again. Another reason to add to the many reasons why people should consider leaving the West. Mr Gates is really talking about the West when he says such things.

It's so fúcking insane. The man has zero qualifications or any kind of democratic mandate but he's being indulged like he's emperor of the world because he's rich. He and his wife genuinely deserve bullets for what they're doing.

Quantum Erasure

:rolleyes:

Dionaibh wrote: »

The opposite. Public transport, cinemas, shops for both the 'relaxed' and the 'non-relaxed'. If the 'non-relaxed' were happy to live alongside 'relaxed' people then it'd just be that the 'relaxed' would live normally (no masks in shops, on the bus) alongside the 'non-relaxed'. They'd go to the same shops, but the new normal rules and restrictions wouldn't apply to the 'relaxed', who, in return, would agreed not to seek medical care in the event of their getting the virus. They'd accept the risk.

That's scenario (a). Scenario (b) would be necessary if the 'non-relaxed' weren't prepared to live alongside the 'relaxed'. In this scenario 'relaxed' persons would, with the support of the government, temporarily live in a part of the country that was for 'relaxed' persons only. The shopkeepers, bus drivers and so would all be registered as 'relaxed'. So you'd have part of the country that would be normal, and the rest new normal.

I think it's a great idea.

Great idea, ...for a movie

walus

Beasty wrote: »

I know who I believe - scientists who are specialists in viruses, not chemical engineers. And there are plenty of virus specialists across the World who seem to adopt differing positions to Cummins - and their predictions made over how this virus may develop in the early days are being borne out now

Beasty, just to repeat myself - do you have any particular names of those scientists that you mention in mind? I'm genuinely interested.


I, to a large extend, agree with the version of covid reality of Michael Levitt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Levitt, and am open minded and seeking believable contrarians who could argue the case from the conservative end. Thanks.

walus

hmmm, could you tell me when, after having a couple of hundred new covid cases per day for the past 6 weeks, we can expect the "deaths to catch up"? You were advocating here this idea that deaths are somewhat lagging behind the cases, and I was wondering when you see that eventually happening? How many more weeks? Thanks.

Penfailed

Dionaibh wrote: »

But isn't the 'relaxed' idea a good one in that it means the risk of the hospitals being overwhelmed is severely reduced? The 'relaxed' people would live normal lives and the 'non-relaxed' people could live new normal lives. The 'relaxed' people would agree not to seek medical care, so I think it could work.

It couldn't though.

manniot2

douglashyde wrote: »

One number which really stood out to me recently (credit to Ivor Cummins).

Of the first 1650 (we're at 1827 now) deaths - 60% were never hospitalised and only 80 or 4.7% were admitted to Incentive Care.

Doctors and Nurses don't let people die who have a fraction of a chance of having some remaining quality life left in them and I think it's fair to say that the 94.3% of people who sadly died with COVID were likely near the end of their lives.

doesnt matter if you were already on deaths door and then died with a fragment of covid in your system, we still need to lockdown and destroy society for years.

Penfailed

Dionaibh wrote: »

Yes, that's the only problem. You'd have to have all the 'relaxed' people living among each other. It could work if you had part of the country for 'relaxed' people. And I'm not joking when I say this. I think it'd be a win win for everyone. It would mean people who want to live normally and take risks could do so, while people who don't could do so as well. It's just finding out a way to keep the 'relaxed' people away from the other people. And it'd be a temporary arrangement.

Hilarious!

Penfailed

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

Ah come on, for days they argued that the 1 to 5 plan we would be using for the next 6 months was not complicated and each county would be treated as per rates in the county.
When asked why Dublin was 3.5 they said this won't happen again but now everyone's 3.5 basically
I even got a leaflet in my door explaining it all

How is everyone at 3.5?

drunkmonkey

douglashyde wrote: »

One number which really stood out to me recently (credit to Ivor Cummins).

Of the first 1650 (we're at 1827 now) deaths - 60% were never hospitalised and only 80 or 4.7% were admitted to Incentive Care.

I don't believe it's that simplistic, we sent the sick from hospital back to the nursing homes which caused a huge spike in infections amougst care home residents and staff, these people weren't tested before being discharged, how many didn't get the care they were entitled to.

There was a very interesting report by Amnesty international last week which didn't get picked up by mainstream media but it should have especially here and the UK.

UK: Older people in care homes abandoned to die amid government failures during COVID-19 pandemic
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2020/10/uk-older-people-in-care-homes-abandoned-to-die-amid-government-failures-during-covid-19-pandemic/

We pretty much done the same thing, I know NPHET said not to blame anyone, convenient enough for them. Media need to step up and take these people to task sooner than later.