Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VI - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

almostover

BeefeaterHat wrote: »

The main difference between us and italy and the uk is that they were open longer and at a much looser level than we were. People were traveling to and from places like Greece all through the summer while we were being told at 4 cases a day that we still weren't where NPHET wanted us to be which is as vacuous a statement that has ever been uttered under the sun. There's zero nuance or planning or intelligence behind NPHET and their strategies just the same caveman brute Force approach of lockdown after lockdown.

And what good did long and loose do the UK and Italy and their economies? Zilch it seems.

Kermit.de.frog

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Meanwhile in the real world no governement, none, is going to be allowing an unknown pathogen run riot through it's population.


There is a very real reason life is as it is today, why the population is enduring restrictions all over the world.

It's not because governments want to do it - it's because they have no choice.

Best to get on with it really facing up to the reality of the situation and preparing for the year ahead, hopeful of a game changer but mindful that while these restrictions may go up or down, they ain't going away any time soon.

The elderly will be vaccinated early next year. Game, set and match.

The celebration parties will be fantastic.

almostover

almostover wrote: »

It's not as mild as you think. My 1st cousin had a mild dose of COVID. 22 years old and was sick for 4-5 days. No big deal. However her sense of smell and taste have not returned properly. She had COVID in March. Her GP believes there maybe permanent damage to the smell receptors in her nose. Perhaps a minor thing in the grand scheme of life but COVID is far from mild. The common cold is a mild illness

Just out of interest, when you vote do you consider things such as better standards of care for the elderly, more ICU capacity and better infection control measures in our hospitals? Or is it only now as we have had to bring in restrictions to normal social life to protect our abysmal healthcare system? Everyone suddenly has become concerned about mental health and healthcare now that a situation has occurred to expose our years of negligence of these things. It seems it's only when people are hit in their pockets or are restricted from having a pint that they begin to care about the things that in the recent past were someone else's problem to worry about.

Your cousin is probably 1 in a million if that’s actually the case.

Plenty of people had healthcare as one of the most important issues before the election this year.

BeefeaterHat

almostover wrote: »

And what good did long and loose do the UK and Italy and their economies? Zilch it seems.

Economically it probably made little difference but compared to here where where the planning on going abroad would have been reacted to with a modern day remake of The Scarlet Letter it's a world of difference. People on the continent were given even briefly a reminder of normal life.

People here seem to be almost gloating at the prospect of Sweden locking down almost like it's a competition. I'd like to point out they lasted over 8 months without lockdown to our level and had similar results to us RE: death toll which tells you everything you need to know how well the authorities handled things here.

manniot2

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The elderly will be vaccinated early next year. Game, set and match.

The celebration parties will be fantastic.

You still won’t be able to have a non socially distant night out this time next year. (In this country)

almostover

Deleted User wrote: »

Your cousin is probably 1 in a million if that’s actually the case.

Plenty of people had healthcare as one of the most important issues before the election this year.

Have a read and maybe revise your probability statement: https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/coping-with-the-loss-of-sense-of-smell-and-taste-2020101921141

manniot2

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Meanwhile in the real world no governement, none, is going to be allowing an unknown pathogen run riot through it's population.


There is a very real reason life is as it is today, why the population is enduring restrictions all over the world.

It's not because governments want to do it - it's because they have no choice.

Best to get on with it really facing up to the reality of the situation and preparing for the year ahead, hopeful of a game changer but mindful that while these restrictions may go up or down, they ain't going away any time soon.

Who is suggesting it’s allowed to run wild? For the hundred time, proportionality in response is all most reasonable people want.

Stormyteacup

BeefeaterHat wrote: »

The main difference between us and italy and the uk is that they were open longer and at a much looser level than we were. People were traveling to and from places like Greece all through the summer while we were being told at 4 cases a day that we still weren't where NPHET wanted us to be which is as vacuous a statement that has ever been uttered under the sun. There's zero nuance or planning or intelligence behind NPHET and their strategies just the same caveman brute Force approach of lockdown after lockdown.

Another difference, here a big part of their strategy was to allow the perpetuation of fear. I can fully understand certain restrictions being necessary to protect health services, and an ebb and flow to them to try for optimal control, but telling us to treat ourselves and everyone else as though we all have a deadly disease is just warped.

I found this uncomfortable reading;

https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/commentanalysis/arid-40081658.html

Spanish Eyes

So back to Coronavirus. Quo Vadis?

I think things will be a bit relaxed for Christmas and inter county travel will be ok. Not sure about pubs and restaurants though. But who knows.

But no matter what they say, there will be big gatherings. It is a visceral thing really.

almostover

BeefeaterHat wrote: »

Economically it probably made little difference but compared to here where where the planning on going abroad would have been reacted to with a modern day remake of The Scarlet Letter it's a world of difference. People on the continent were given even briefly a reminder of normal life.

People here seem to be almost gloating at the prospect of Sweden locking down almost like it's a competition. I'd like to point out they lasted over 8 months without lockdown to our level and had similar results to us RE: death toll which tells you everything you need to know how well the authorities handled things here.

41 deaths per 100k for Ireland, 60 deaths per 100k for Sweden. 50% higher death rate and likely to be under reported vs Irelands figures.

https://georank.org/covid/ireland/sweden

Was their brief reminder of normal life worth it?

BeefeaterHat

manniot2 wrote: »

You still won’t be able to have a non socially distant night out this time next year. (In this country)

You're probably right unfortunately. We'll revert back to the dance Halls of the 50's with the parish priest standing in the middle making sure the buachaillí and the cailliní are separate at all times.

PTH2009

manniot2 wrote: »

You still won’t be able to have a non socially distant night out this time next year. (In this country)

Yep and NPHET will still be pulling the strings on there generous salaries

manniot2

BeefeaterHat wrote: »

You're probably right unfortunately. We'll revert back to the dance Halls of the 50's with the parish priest standing in the middle making sure the buachaillí and the cailliní are separate at all times.

Can you imagine the night coppers and them places reopen. Absolute carnage. Won’t be in 2021 I don’t think

BeefeaterHat

almostover wrote: »

41 deaths per 100k for Ireland, 60 deaths per 100k for Sweden. 50% higher death rate and likely to be under reported vs Irelands figures.

https://georank.org/covid/ireland/sweden

Was their brief reminder of normal life worth it?

Considering we locked down and the authorities proceeded to royally **** the bed in relation to nursing homes did we come out of things smelling particularly Rosy either?

Look at Denmark, roughly the same population and similar size geographically. 60k cases and 700 deaths. Nearly a third of ours.

Same story with Slovakia, 80k cases and under 500 deaths. People can frame it any way they like but our authorities underperformed. They didn't hold up their side of the bargain regarding hospital capacity and protecting nursing homes and they've gotten away with it over and over.

SusieBlue

Stormyteacup wrote: »

Another difference, here a big part of their strategy was to allow the perpetuation of fear. I can fully understand certain restrictions being necessary to protect health services, and an ebb and flow to them to try for optimal control, but telling us to treat ourselves and everyone else as though we all have a deadly disease is just warped.

I found this uncomfortable reading;

https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/commentanalysis/arid-40081658.html

God, that was a depressing read. The kids and teenagers really have suffered an enormous amount under the burden of all these restrictions and lockdowns.

It’s very sad to hear that young children, who should be innocent and care free, are in such a severe state of stress, fear and anxiety that it’s causing them to become physically ill. How anyone can say the restrictions/lockdowns are still for the greater good of everyone with that in mind is beyond me.

almostover

almostover wrote: »

I really dont see what an alternative course of action is to deal with this pandemic. Dont think ignoring expert advice to limit our social contacts would work well. Italy back in the sh*tter again, UK in a bad place also. NPHET arent some sort of sadistic puppemaster pulling the strings. I have a feeling that when all this is behind us Ireland will look back and in hindsight say that our rolling lockdown approach was the best course of action.

So yet again, I have yet to receive one coherent, viable alternative strategy for living with COVID to the one currently being enacted by our government. Plenty of hot air, smartarsery and whataboutery however. Waste of time debating this topic of conversation on here.

One fact remains, COVID is not a sentient being who will soon decide that we have done our part, enough is enough and p*ss off and let us enjoy Christmas as normal. The rules of the game remain the same, reduce social contacts and COVID goes away, increase social contacts and COVID grows.

To get back on topic, I hope that the next few weeks go well with a significant reduction in COVID cases. Hopefully we can go back to L3 in early Dec and maybe L2 coming into xmas. We will pay for that in January but so be it. If the government decides that's the best approach under huge public pressure then we the public will have to suck it up if that means another stint at L5 in January. I have a friends wedding in Dec and hope to be leaving the hair down for that.

Must say, it’s hilarious to see posters actually believe the nonsense they type.

Our governments don’t know best. Everybody just saw China lockdown and played follow the leader.

To this day there is no real scientific evidence that restrictions have any real impact.

Most countries have fairly identical graphs considering the different approaches/lockdowns/restrictions.

The only thing that may help is full lockdown including schools etc and full public support, which we no longer have.

manniot2

almostover wrote: »

So yet again, I have yet to receive one coherent, viable alternative strategy for living with COVID to the one currently being enacted my our government. Plenty of hot air, smartarsery and whataboutery however. Waste of time debating this topic of conversation on here.

One fact remains, COVID is not a sentient being who will soon decide that we have done our part, enough is enough and p*as off and let us enjoy Christmas as normal. The rules of the game remain the same, reduce social contacts and COVID goes away, increase social contacts and COVID grows.

To get back on topic, I hope that the next few weeks go well with a significant reduction in COVID cases. Hopefully we can go back to L3 in early Dec and maybe L2 coming into xmas. We will pay for that in January but so be it. If the government decides that's the best approach under huge public pressure then we the public will have to suck it up if that means another stint at L5 in January. I have a friends wedding in Dec and hope to be leaving the hair down for that.

Or we could actually formulate a proportionate response and not have our hospitals quieter than ever before with large parts of society and economy closed.

almostover

almostover wrote: »

So yet again, I have yet to receive one coherent, viable alternative strategy for living with COVID to the one currently being enacted by our government. Plenty of hot air, smartarsery and whataboutery however. Waste of time debating this topic of conversation on here.

One fact remains, COVID is not a sentient being who will soon decide that we have done our part, enough is enough and p*ss off and let us enjoy Christmas as normal. The rules of the game remain the same, reduce social contacts and COVID goes away, increase social contacts and COVID grows.

To get back on topic, I hope that the next few weeks go well with a significant reduction in COVID cases. Hopefully we can go back to L3 in early Dec and maybe L2 coming into xmas. We will pay for that in January but so be it. If the government decides that's the best approach under huge public pressure then we the public will have to suck it up if that means another stint at L5 in January. I have a friends wedding in Dec and hope to be leaving the hair down for that.

Increase ICU capacity, controls in hospitals, don’t reduce testing in nursing homes again

almostover

manniot2 wrote: »

Or we could actually formulate a proportionate response and not have our hospitals quieter than ever before with large parts of society and economy closed.

Ok any details of what a more proportionate response would look like?

end of the road

Deleted User wrote: »

That’s rubbish.
There are takeaway pints and street parties on the middle of winter. Nobody is afraid of catching Covid. Pubs and restaurants would be packed if allowed to open. Demand would be huge.

What could we have done differently? Protect the nursing homes for a start. Something we’ve failed to do all year and has caused the majority of deaths. Put procedures in place to prevent spread in hospitals? Increase ICU capacity?

Most importantly though, we should have accepted a higher death toll in order to look after the overall greater good of the country and future generations.

Instead we have chosen to saddle future generations with billions of debt. All because we were a bit afraid of a mild disease.

protecting the nursing homes etc and increasing ICU capacity wouldn't have got us out of having to suppress the virus.
it wouldn't have been possible for us to have accepted a higher death toll in order to look after the overall greater good of the country and future generations, as the risk of collapsing the whole lot was just too high and this greater good you speak of likely wouldn't have been possible to deliver.
and realistically the majority of people would not have allowed more deaths on the basis of we hope we might possibly be able to do something dispite the fact the evidence shows we wouldn't have been able to.
our approach delivers for the greater good and is as balanced as it is possible to be given the circumstances.
the virus is no mild illness, it's a very serious illness for some especially if uncontrolled.

Deleted User wrote: »

Hard to understand how people actually believe that nonsense.

Pubs and restaurants would be mental busy if open.

Sure the pubs in Dublin are busy with take away pints.

they wouldn't have been as busy as they would be in ordinary times realistically.
sure, pictures on social media might have made it look like a lot more of them were busier then they were, and you might get a couple of busy places, but realistically numbers for the trades as a whole would be down.
in fact going forward those trades probably won't be as busy as people discover that home drinking is cheaper and there are options out there to create small home bars for example.
not to mention making your own lunch is cheaper and a no brainer.
oh the times they are a changing.

almostover

Deleted User wrote: »

Increase ICU capacity, controls in hospitals, don’t reduce testing in nursing homes again

And open society as normal other than that? A strategy that has resulted in healthcare systems much superior to ours being overwhelmed?

almostover

almostover wrote: »

And open society as normal other than that? A strategy that has resulted in healthcare systems much superior to ours being overwhelmed?

With social distancing and hand washing.
And no huge crowds like concerts/sports.

Our hospitals were never close to overwhelmed.

end of the road

manniot2 wrote: »

Who is suggesting it’s allowed to run wild? For the hundred time, proportionality in response is all most reasonable people want.

and it's what you have got.

almostover

Deleted User wrote: »

With social distancing and hand washing.
And no huge crowds like concerts/sports.

Our hospitals were never close to overwhelmed.

So level 2? Of the governments living with COVID plan?

almostover

almostover wrote: »

So level 2? Of the governments living with COVID plan?

I doubt it. Haven’t read the plan in a long time.
But I recall lots of nonsense around number of visitors in a house or at a wedding etc.

Probably more level 1

HBC08

normanoffside wrote: »

Melbourne man is paying a blinder and winding up all the thankers (did you see what i did there?)here to the max!

Ha Long Bay

Deleted User wrote: »

Increase ICU capacity, controls in hospitals, don’t reduce testing in nursing homes again

How many extra ICU beds? How many doctors and nurses would be required to staff these beds and are they available?

Its very easy throw out a line like this but you always hit limits.

almostover

Deleted User wrote: »

I doubt it. Haven’t read the plan in a long time.
But I recall lots of nonsense around number of visitors in a house or at a wedding etc.

Probably more level 1

So let me get this straight, no large gatherings like concerts but have as many people around your gaff or a few hundred at a wedding? So how does COVID know you're in a large gathering at home or at a wedding and will not infect you but if you're in a large crowd at a concert it will infect you?

almostover

almostover wrote: »

So let me get this straight, no large gatherings like concerts but have as many people around your gaff or a few hundred at a wedding? So how does COVID know you're in a large gathering at home or at a wedding and will not infect you but if you're in a large crowd at a concert it will infect you?

I’m guessing you wouldn’t have 80000 in your living room like some gigs...

And perhaps a sensible number around weddings, 150 or so.