Japanese lost generation

bmcc10

Un1corn wrote: »

I dunno. Japanese life is no joke. An extremely authoritarian culture where hierarchy face and collectivism are everything. Couple that with working 24 hours a day 7 days a week there isn't alot to enjoy about life there. If you are woman you are **** out of luck and expected to become a housewife. The reason the birth rate is dropping is life isn't very attractive.

The level of ignorance and mis conception here is astounding.

El Gato De Negocios

There are plenty of career paths out there if people are willing to take them. Industries like insurance are constantly looking for entry level staff in call centres. Unless you are a total buffoon and you are willing to put a bit of graft in you can get a recognised qualification within 2 years of starting in the industry and most companies, be they direct insurers or brokers will pay for people to sit the industry exams. Once qualified and with a bit of experience the industry completely opens out to you. Areas like sales, compliance, claims, governance or underwriting will never become automated and will constantly require staffing.

Most of the big insurers offer apprenticeship schemes where people can gain work experience and a recognised qualification in two years. I know two people that entered into the apprenticeship scheme a couple of years ago. The only work experience one had was in McDonalds and the other as a builders labourer. Both are now working as underwriters for a domestic insurance company.

I see alot of entitlement and whinging from certain demographics and it sickens me. Get up off your hole and make things happen, you wont be handed anything unless you luck out and are born into a wealthy family.

mariaalice

El Gato De Negocios wrote: »

There are plenty of career paths out there if people are willing to take them. Industries like insurance are constantly looking for entry level staff in call centres. Unless you are a total buffoon and you are willing to put a bit of graft in you can get a recognised qualification within 2 years of starting in the industry and most companies, be they direct insurers or brokers will pay for people to sit the industry exams. Once qualified and with a bit of experience the industry completely opens out to you. Areas like sales, compliance, claims, governance or underwriting will never become automated and will constantly require staffing.

Most of the big insurers offer apprenticeship schemes where people can gain work experience and a recognised qualification in two years. I know two people that entered into the apprenticeship scheme a couple of years ago. The only work experience one had was in McDonalds and the other as a builders labourer. Both are now working as underwriters for a domestic insurance company.

I see alot of entitlement and whinging from certain demographics and it sickens me. Get up off your hole and make things happen, you wont be handed anything unless you luck out and are born into a wealthy family.

That is a bit harsh, there are some for whom it hasn't worked out, there might be many reasons including luck involved but it is not the story of the majority of young people.

El Gato De Negocios

El Gato De Negocios wrote: »

There are plenty of career paths out there if people are willing to take them. Industries like insurance are constantly looking for entry level staff in call centres. Unless you are a total buffoon and you are willing to put a bit of graft in you can get a recognised qualification within 2 years of starting in the industry and most companies, be they direct insurers or brokers will pay for people to sit the industry exams. Once qualified and with a bit of experience the industry completely opens out to you. Areas like sales, compliance, claims, governance or underwriting will never become automated and will constantly require staffing.

Most of the big insurers offer apprenticeship schemes where people can gain work experience and a recognised qualification in two years. I know two people that entered into the apprenticeship scheme a couple of years ago. The only work experience one had was in McDonalds and the other as a builders labourer. Both are now working as underwriters for a domestic insurance company.

I see alot of entitlement and whinging from certain demographics and it sickens me. Get up off your hole and make things happen, you wont be handed anything unless you luck out and are born into a wealthy family.

It's not just that. They've got access to the European market for employment. Go abroad for a few years, get some experience, save some money, and then come back to Ireland in a better position to search for jobs (hopefully with a wide range of new skills on their resume).

I'd agree with the sense of entitlement that has emerged in Ireland..

The Tetrarch

KyussB wrote: »

What current and upcoming generations need, is to enforce their human right to a job - from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:

Article 23.
(1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.

Which means that when there are not enough jobs for everyone, the government is responsible for employing people, as 'employer of last resort'. A Job Guarantee is the best implementation of this policy.

There is no other workable way to avoid peoples human rights being breached. It is unjust for anyone to ever be left involuntarily unemployed, long term.

That is your interpretation. A right to work is not a guarantee of work.

KyussB

The Tetrarch wrote: »

That is your interpretation. A right to work is not a guarantee of work.

As Article 23 says:

Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.

That precisely means that the government has to provide people with jobs, when they are unemployed - otherwise they are failing in their duty to protect people from unemployment - a breach of human rights.

Lillyfae

KyussB wrote: »

As Article 23 says:

Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.

That precisely means that the government has to provide people with jobs, when they are unemployed - otherwise they are failing in their duty to protect people from unemployment - a breach of human rights.

Not necessarily. Protection against unemployment could mean access to education and qualification, which there is in abundance.

ancapailldorcha

El Gato De Negocios wrote: »

There are plenty of career paths out there if people are willing to take them. Industries like insurance are constantly looking for entry level staff in call centres. Unless you are a total buffoon and you are willing to put a bit of graft in you can get a recognised qualification within 2 years of starting in the industry and most companies, be they direct insurers or brokers will pay for people to sit the industry exams. Once qualified and with a bit of experience the industry completely opens out to you. Areas like sales, compliance, claims, governance or underwriting will never become automated and will constantly require staffing.

Most of the big insurers offer apprenticeship schemes where people can gain work experience and a recognised qualification in two years. I know two people that entered into the apprenticeship scheme a couple of years ago. The only work experience one had was in McDonalds and the other as a builders labourer. Both are now working as underwriters for a domestic insurance company.

I see alot of entitlement and whinging from certain demographics and it sickens me. Get up off your hole and make things happen, you wont be handed anything unless you luck out and are born into a wealthy family.

I get what you're saying here but frankly I had no idea that you could enter the insurance industry that easily. I think a lot of career paths that do not necessarily require a dedicated degree or where one can work their way up from an entry level position.

I think you've been a tad harsh. Every demographic has its whiners and layabouts but not just because Google exists doesn't mean really helpful advice like the above is readily available. This is the sort of info only someone in insurance would know.

KyussB

Lillyfae wrote: »

Not necessarily. Protection against unemployment could mean access to education and qualification, which there is in abundance.

No it can't, because people will still be involuntarily unemployed during education/training - and most of them afterwards too when there are still not enough jobs to go around.

The Tetrarch

KyussB wrote: »

No it can't, because people will still be involuntarily unemployed during education/training - and most of them afterwards too when there are still not enough jobs to go around.

Ever hear of self employed?

KyussB

Are you suggesting that Japan's lost generation is down to voluntary unemployment, because they all did not want to become self-employed?...

Involuntary unemployment is a real thing. Jobs paying a livable wage for every unemployed person, can't be magicked up out of nowhere through self-employment.

Lollipops23

Lollipops23 wrote: »

I'm a millenial. I don't know of anyone my age who (pre Covid) was jobless through anything other than choice.

Even during the recession, I took the sh*ttest job to get me through and then managed to get better and better jobs over the course of 10 years, to where I am now. In a decent job, living in a mortgaged home.

As are the majority of my friends and family around the same age.

Yes but if you left school and stayed at home, didn't get any work and didn't try and better yourself you could now be jobless and complaining about how tough it all is.

You missed a trick there :pac:

mariaalice

Augeo wrote: »

Yes but if you left school and stayed at home, didn't get any work and didn't try and better yourself you could now be jobless and complaining about how tough it all is.

You missed a trick there :pac:

There is a bit of that going on, but for some reason, I am not sure what some don't seem to fit in, does not seem to be able to get a job, and if they do it never works out they are always marching to the right when everyone else is marching to the left.

The only young person I know who made a mess of it dropped out of college and two other things they tried and now works in McDonald's, they have a very good leaving cert so thing might turn around for them who knows. The rest all have good jobs and careers and just getting on with it.

mariaalice

mariaalice wrote: »

There is a bit of that going on, but for some reason, I am not sure what some don't seem to fit in, does not seem to be able to get a job, and if they do it never works out they are always marching to the right when everyone else is marching to the left. .................

That's always been the way .......... every generation has a few % that don't fit in / aren't catered for. Not at all millennial specific.

El Gato De Negocios

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I get what you're saying here but frankly I had no idea that you could enter the insurance industry that easily. I think a lot of career paths that do not necessarily require a dedicated degree or where one can work their way up from an entry level position.

I think you've been a tad harsh. Every demographic has its whiners and layabouts but not just because Google exists doesn't mean really helpful advice like the above is readily available. This is the sort of info only someone in insurance would know.

I guess what Im driving at is that there are opportunities out there for people willing to work and put in the effort.

I have a decent enough degree and graduated about 14 years ago. Was working away until the wheels came off the economy and literally could not get a job even remotely related to my degree so I took a contract role in a call centre for an insurance company after nearly a year of unemployment. There were plenty of people there that weren't arsed with doing any of the industry exams and most of them are either still in the call centre role or have moved on to similar "lower level" jobs. Those however that did get a qualification have all moved on to bigger and better things in the industry, myself included.

People will get out what they put in.

pgj2015

KyussB wrote: »

Are you suggesting that Japan's lost generation is down to voluntary unemployment, because they all did not want to become self-employed?...

Involuntary unemployment is a real thing. Jobs paying a livable wage for every unemployed person, can't be magicked up out of nowhere through self-employment.

why not?

KyussB

Because when economic activity collapses, joblessness is caused by a collapse in Aggregate Demand (both locally and in the world economy).

When there is not enough demand for the work on offer from all of the self-employed, then it is inescapable that a large number of the self-employed won't get clients, or won't get enough work from clients to make a livable wage.

When economic activity collapses, there simply is not enough demand for workers to employ them all. The private sector does not want them. Waiting for the private sector to want their work again, is what causes lost generations of unemployed/unwanted workers, who lose the opportunity for achieving the same quality of life as others who do have consistent/decent work.

ancapailldorcha

El Gato De Negocios wrote: »

I guess what Im driving at is that there are opportunities out there for people willing to work and put in the effort.

I have a decent enough degree and graduated about 14 years ago. Was working away until the wheels came off the economy and literally could not get a job even remotely related to my degree so I took a contract role in a call centre for an insurance company after nearly a year of unemployment. There were plenty of people there that weren't arsed with doing any of the industry exams and most of them are either still in the call centre role or have moved on to similar "lower level" jobs. Those however that did get a qualification have all moved on to bigger and better things in the industry, myself included.

People will get out what they put in.

I've had no end of experience of corporate types drone on and on about personal development so I've no idea how someone could be disinterested in industry exams with long term benefits which would constitute actual personal development. I'm considering a career change so I'm always grateful to hear of routes that don't involve another four years of University and a mountain of debt.

IAMAMORON

It is worth also pointing out that I have met lots of people in senior company positions who have barely done their leaving cert.

Having degrees and qualifications pouring out your ass is no guarantee for success. The reality is that it is who you know not what you know, more often than not.

It helps if you are presentable and attractive. Also I have seen really dim and witless people get promoted because the powers that be don't want successful, ambitious and/or productive people working around them, far too much hassle.

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I've had no end of experience of corporate types drone on and on about personal development so I've no idea how someone could be disinterested in industry exams with long term benefits which would constitute actual personal development. I'm considering a career change so I'm always grateful to hear of routes that don't involve another four years of University and a mountain of debt.

I'd be similar, in a way, except that I've changed my career type before. I started in Finance with Credit control/AP, moved to management, then corporate training, then English teacher, then lecturing. While I still enjoy lecturing, I'm feeling the itch to move to another role entirely... so I've been looking at going back for another Masters in an unrelated field, but the costs involved are making me wince.

I think the point he was making was that people have options for career development, and then, obtaining better employment.

A lot of the complaining I seem to hear about the inability to get work is because those people are unwilling to re-educate/re-skill themselves. Instead they're simply expecting their existing resume to be enough. Always, and forever. No need to do more.

IAMAMORON

IAMAMORON wrote: »

It is worth also pointing out that I have met lots of people in senior company positions who have barely done their leaving cert.

Having degrees and qualifications pouring out your ass is no guarantee for success. The reality is that it is who you know not what you know, more often than not.

It helps if you are presentable and attractive. Also I have seen really dim and witless people get promoted because the powers that be don't want successful, ambitious and/or productive people working around them, far too much hassle.

Same. I know plenty of people in reasonably high positions who only have the most basic of qualifications, but TBF they usually started at the bottom working their way to the top, or started the business themselves. The days when people could get such positions without some decent formal education has been disappearing for decades. Regulation of many industries tends to require new employees to be certified for positions.. and companies tend to become more formal over time, not less.

In any case, it's less about having many degrees, and more to do with having the skills to do the job well. Experience is king... as is the ability to interview well. A solid interview often negates the need for advanced degrees, since many companies prefer an experienced player over someone who spent half their life studying. Networking plays a big part with certain industries, but you can get around that if you can build a reputation for excellence.

El Gato De Negocios

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I've had no end of experience of corporate types drone on and on about personal development so I've no idea how someone could be disinterested in industry exams with long term benefits which would constitute actual personal development. I'm considering a career change so I'm always grateful to hear of routes that don't involve another four years of University and a mountain of debt.

We met at a beers a number of years ago mate so I know you are a smart guy considering what you were / are doing. Obviously I'm biased as I work in the industry but as industries go, it is relatively easy to make inroads development wise and career wise. I moved from personal lines call centre pleb to commercial lines support pleb to underwriting to broking and for the last year and a half I've been in the governance / compliance side of the business. If I was to advocate for a particular discipline id suggest the compliance route. There is one globally recognised qualification for compliance which takes 4 exams to achieve. I've two done and passed, next one in January then the final one in May. All going well I will then have a professional diploma in compliance from studying part time. Once you get that and have some industry experience you are laughing.

The best thing about it is that compliance across all financial services - insurance, investments, banking etc - is essentially exactly the same and broadly, the rules are uniform for all financial services providers so I can conceivably move into banking, funds or any related sector.

If you are seriously considering a total career change id recommend you investigate it. I won't lie, starting out the money isn't great and a call centre environment can be tough but with a bit of graft and ambition I would say anyone can get out of that environment in a couple of years. I didn't start working in the industry til I was 30 so its never too late.

ancapailldorcha

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd be similar, in a way, except that I've changed my career type before. I started in Finance with Credit control/AP, moved to management, then corporate training, then English teacher, then lecturing. While I still enjoy lecturing, I'm feeling the itch to move to another role entirely... so I've been looking at going back for another Masters in an unrelated field, but the costs involved are making me wince.

I think the point he was making was that people have options for career development, and then, obtaining better employment.

A lot of the complaining I seem to hear about the inability to get work is because those people are unwilling to re-educate/re-skill themselves. Instead they're simply expecting their existing resume to be enough. Always, and forever. No need to do more.

I did two programming courses part time in the last few years. Granted, they were short but I have no problem with training or doing courses. I'm just reluctant to spend tens of thousands of pounds on a degree which may not yield a satisfactory return on investment.

It's a completely valid point, don't get me wrong. I just feel like the opportunities are not well known. For instance, I'm at a stage where I'm not sure what my next move should be. The political situation here (which I'm only mentioning in passing) doesn't help but my current skillset is useless outside the southeast of the UK. I found out about a potentially well paid and intellectually stimulating career simply from a random person on this site. I fixed up my CV and covering letter but to no avail to date but I've taken a step back because of the pandemic.

El Gato De Negocios wrote: »

We met at a beers a number of years ago mate so I know you are a smart guy considering what you were / are doing. Obviously I'm biased as I work in the industry but as industries go, it is relatively easy to make inroads development wise and career wise. I moved from personal lines call centre pleb to commercial lines support pleb to underwriting to broking and for the last year and a half I've been in the governance / compliance side of the business. If I was to advocate for a particular discipline id suggest the compliance route. There is one globally recognised qualification for compliance which takes 4 exams to achieve. I've two done and passed, next one in January then the final one in May. All going well I will then have a professional diploma in compliance from studying part time. Once you get that and have some industry experience you are laughing.

The best thing about it is that compliance across all financial services - insurance, investments, banking etc - is essentially exactly the same and broadly, the rules are uniform for all financial services providers so I can conceivably move into banking, funds or any related sector.

If you are seriously considering a total career change id recommend you investigate it. I won't lie, starting out the money isn't great and a call centre environment can be tough but with a bit of graft and ambition I would say anyone can get out of that environment in a couple of years. I didn't start working in the industry til I was 30 so its never too late.

That's very kind of you. Appreciate that. I was going to mention the fact in my post but deleted it.

That's encouraging. I find it a bit hard to believe that a company would allow a call centre employee though I do of course believe you. I just thought that the idea of employers actually showing an active interest in the development of entry-level employees was dead.

Sephiroth_dude

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I did two programming courses part time in the last few years.

How did you like them?

Did two programming courses myself and a testing course and I loved them, I am no master programer and I'm still learning and love the problem solving side of it but I couldn't get a job after, seems most companies want people with degrees and a wealth of experience, trying to get a portfolio of projects together so I can show employers what I can do.

El Gato De Negocios

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

That's encouraging. I find it a bit hard to believe that a company would allow a call centre employee though I do of course believe you. I just thought that the idea of employers actually showing an active interest in the development of entry-level employees was dead.

Well its not out of the goodness of their hearts! Regulations state that people employed in insurance and that are involved in any kind of product servicing must adhere to the minimum competency code so insurers are obliged to have their staff pursue professional qualifications. They cover the costs of them as otherwise it would be difficult for them to encourage people to do them if they had to pay out of their own pockets.

El Gato De Negocios

El Gato De Negocios wrote: »

Well its not out of the goodness of their hearts! Regulations state that people employed in insurance and that are involved in any kind of product servicing must adhere to the minimum competency code so insurers are obliged to have their staff pursue professional qualifications. They cover the costs of them as otherwise it would be difficult for them to encourage people to do them if they had to pay out of their own pockets.

It's not just that. Call center work covers a wide variety of sales and customer related services, which can bring to the fore soft skills which are often lacking in university students, or with workers with technical backgrounds. The area of emotional intelligence, and the awareness of human behavior (which tends to be a big part of sales) is a booming area, with retail/sales positions being more available than ever before.

The ability to make a connection with random people either through cold calls, or from a database, is a valuable resource, so training up staff makes sense. Paying for that training creates a degree of loyalty, and also boosts the reputation of the company as being employee focused. So a company tends to win regardless of how the training develops.

I hated cold calling, and doing sales... but I did call center work when I was a student. It's actually how I entered credit control originally. It teaches a lot of skills which laid the foundational experience for pretty much everything I can do today. I would actually consider it a useful role to do for a year... just to get the "people" skills that comes with it.

ancapailldorcha

Sephiroth_dude wrote: »

How did you like them?

Did two programming courses myself and a testing course and I loved them, I am no master programer and I'm still learning and love the problem solving side of it but I couldn't get a job after, seems most companies want people with degrees and a wealth of experience, trying to get a portfolio of projects together so I can show employers what I can do.

I have to say that I really liked the logic and the problem-solving element of it. That said, I think I need to spend more time with it as I found my enthusiasm tank once I started to fall behind.

El Gato De Negocios wrote: »

Well its not out of the goodness of their hearts! Regulations state that people employed in insurance and that are involved in any kind of product servicing must adhere to the minimum competency code so insurers are obliged to have their staff pursue professional qualifications. They cover the costs of them as otherwise it would be difficult for them to encourage people to do them if they had to pay out of their own pockets.

Ah. I see.