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smacl

I'm creating a sticky here which is to be used for all feedback on this forum. Feel free to discuss what you feel should and should not be allowed on this forum and raise any issues in relation to moderation.

John Hutton

I have not posted on the forum that much, but I have noticed that, it seems, more atheists, or other "non believers", post than Catholics and other Christians. The general thrust of these posts tends to be some version or combination of "how do you believe this sh!t" or general "you/your religion is bad" or "look at this bad thing that happened in the name of your religion".

This website (and indeed "vocal" Irish society in general) are hostile to Christianity, and Catholicism especially. This results in more "articulate" Catholics keeping the head down, because who has the time or the inclination? Why would you try and have a discussion on a Christian forum about your religion where you will be constantly expected to justify your beliefs (Note I said justify, not explain - "why do you believe this particular thing" is much different from a basic assertion "how do you believe this rubbish") or deal with belittlement? Now, you might be interested in apologetics, but that's different.

I don't like to talk about myself but take this thread for example:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058114788

I started this as a discussion about the rational or logical arguments for the existence of God. Much of the thread was consumed with atheists or other non believers wanting to skip over the actual topic, and instead bash or rubbish belief in God and by extension, believers. Now it never really got that far, mainly because I wouldn't bite and kept trying to redirect the discussion. Now it was an interesting enough discussion in the end, but it wasn't exactly what it was started to be, and it took a lot of effort for me to avoid it descending into the usual nonsense.

Or take this thread: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058118591

It's an interesting (if somewhat robustly worded !) OP, but, if I were to be very critical, rather than an attempt to explore the "problem of evil" I could argue that it is essentially a strawman argument ending in a challenge to, basically, "justify this crap". Now I would never say that I am entitled to be replied to or engaged with, but my reply to that thread was a selection of some of the theological responses (not worded very well, I'm not a theologian) to the central issue raised, but these were ignored in preference to a rubbishing of the (I don't mean to be unkind) less "canonical" responses and arguments offered by a poster.

I do not think it would be possible to discuss some of the finer points of Christianity on this forum. Pope Francis released a new encyclical today, would a thread on this get past the first page without descending into the usual arguments? Is there much difference in content between this and the atheist forum except for the fact that people have to be a bit less obviously disrespectful to religious belief here?

I don't blame the moderators, or the Charter, both seem good. But there are no Christian moderators, which seems very odd to me to be honest.

I think the forum can only be useful if Catholics and Christians actually use it. If they are outnumbered (in threads at least) by atheists why would I or anyone else, who wants to discuss their faith, actually post? EDIT: Just to pre-empt what some would say in response to this, some variation of "Christians should be open to defending their faith, or, you can't expect assertions to go unchallenged etc etc, this is fair enough, but would a soccer fan post in that forum if the majority of vocal posters there were people who didn't like soccer and basically asked anyone who does to explain why they like it and then had to constantly justify their like of it?

So I think the forum should be made a more comfortable place for Christians to post in, in the hope that more Christians would use it. This would make the forum altogether more interesting and useful. How exactly to do this remains to be seen!

Hotblack Desiato

How do you propose to do that, short of banning any non-Christian from posting there?

I think the extreme positions adopted by some Christian posters are much more responsible for moderates staying away as anything atheists have posted there.

Have you started a thread on the encyclical to see what would happen, or at least give it a chance? I doubt many atheists would be interested in such a thread but the real question would be how many Catholics are...

John Hutton

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

How do you propose to do that, short of banning any non-Christian from posting there?

I think the extreme positions adopted by some Christian posters are much more responsible for moderates staying away as anything atheists have posted there.

Have you started a thread on the encyclical to see what would happen, or at least give it a chance? I doubt many atheists would be interested in such a thread but the real question would be how many Catholics are...

So you think that banning atheists from posting would attract more christian posters. Why do you think that?


Your final paragraph is quite revealing...

Christianity is a form of belief, so why would you not want non-Christians raising interesting points about your beliefs? Do you want to find out if your beliefs are correct or possibly need changing, or do you just want to continue believing what you believe no matter what interesting points are made because you're Christian now and you'll always be Christian, no matter what?

John Hutton

Deleted User wrote: »

Christianity is a form of belief, so why would you not want non-Christians raising interesting points about your beliefs? Do you want to find out if your beliefs are correct or possibly need changing, or do you just want to continue believing what you believe no matter what interesting points are made because you're Christian now and you'll always be Christian, no matter what?

What if I want to discuss my beliefs with like minded individuals?


I don't disagree with the general thrust of what you said but it doesn't really work if Christians are a minority on this forum and essentially "crowded out" does it?

John Hutton

John Hutton wrote: »

What if I want to discuss my beliefs with like minded individuals?

If you primarily only want to talk to Christians about your beliefs, then I would argue that your beliefs are not that important to you as you have no interest in hearing the other side of the story and ascertaining if your beliefs are in fact correct.

And as Hotblack Desiato said, if you start a thread primarily about a niche Christian topic, it's unlikely that non-Christians will post. But if you entitle a thread "Arguments in favour of the existence of God", then it's only natural (and correct) that non-Christians should post.

John Hutton wrote: »

I don't disagree with the general thrust of what you said but it doesn't really work if Christians are a minority on this forum and essentially "crowded out" does it?

Huh, that's weird. I was so sure that when Christianity started, it was also in the minority. Seemed to do alright for itself back in the day. And again, why do you not feel that you being in the minority might not be part of God's plan?

John Hutton

Deleted User wrote: »

If you primarily only want to talk to Christians about your beliefs, then I would argue that your beliefs are not that important to you as you have no interest in hearing the other side of the story and ascertaining if your beliefs are in fact correct.

So why do you post here, to tell Catholics and Christians that they are wrong?

Point One of the Charter: 1. The purpose of this forum is to discuss Christian belief in general, and specific elements of it, between Christians and non-Christians alike. This forum has the additional purpose of being a point on Boards.ie where Christians may ask other Christians questions about their shared faith. In this regard, Christians should not have to defend their faith from overt or subtle attack.

And as Hotblack Desiato said, if you start a thread primarily about a niche Christian topic, it's unlikely that non-Christians will post. But if you entitle a thread "Arguments in favour of the existence of God", then it's only natural (and correct) that non-Christians should post.

Are you saying that I was expecting too much that the OP of that thread would be read and not just the title?

Huh, that's weird. I was so sure that when Christianity started, it was also in the minority. Seemed to do alright for itself back in the day. And again, why do you not feel that you being in the minority might not be part of God's plan?

You seem very anxious to be reassured that you are taking part in God's plan.

Do you not think the forum would be better if more Christians posted here? More Christians does not mean that less atheists would be allowed post, unless you too, like Hotblack Desiato think that if less atheists posted here more Christians would? Why do you think this?

I was asked by the moderator, the OP of this thread, to make a contribution to this thread so I gave it some thought and did so, and now you are saying (in another thread, referencing this one - lets keep posts in their proper threads shall we?) that I am arguing that God "couldn't possibly have any reasons for allowing atheists to post in this forum".
Why would I be inclined to spend my time engaging with this? I don't think you are interested in a mutually enlightening and useful discussion.

John Hutton

John Hutton wrote: »

So why do you post here, to tell Catholics and Christians that they are wrong?

No, to have a constructive debate. So, what would be your response to what I said? "If you primarily only want to talk to Christians about your beliefs, then I would argue that your beliefs are not that important to you as you have no interest in hearing the other side of the story and ascertaining if your beliefs are in fact correct."

John Hutton wrote: »

Are you saying that I was expecting too much that the OP of that thread would be read and not just the title?

No, not sure where you are getting that from.

John Hutton wrote: »

You seem very anxious to be reassured that you are taking part in God's plan.

No, I'm atheist.

John Hutton wrote: »

Do you not think the forum would be better if more Christians posted here? More Christians does not mean that less atheists would be allowed post, unless you too, like Hotblack Desiato think that if less atheists posted here more Christians would? Why do you think this?

So what was the purpose of you posting in this thread? Your feedback is that atheists should still be allowed to post, but there should be also more Christians? So your feedback is that you want the mods to magic more Christians out of thin air? Good feedback, they'll see what they can do.

John Hutton wrote: »

I was asked by the moderator, the OP of this thread, to make a contribution to this thread so I gave it some thought and did so, and now you are saying (in another thread, referencing this one - lets keep posts in their proper threads shall we?) that I am arguing that God "couldn't possibly have any reasons for allowing atheists to post in this forum".
Why would I be inclined to spend my time engaging with this? I don't think you are interested in a mutually enlightening and useful discussion.

I am demonstrating to you how flawed your logic is that God may have his reasons for killing babies but certainly couldn't possibly have any reasons for having many atheists post in this forum. If you can easily accept the former but can't easily accept the latter, then I cannot help you.

Edit: Also you have completely misunderstood the point that Hotblack Desiato made.

John Hutton

Deleted User wrote: »

No, to have a constructive debate. So, what would be your response to what I said? "If you primarily only want to talk to Christians about your beliefs, then I would argue that your beliefs are not that important to you as you have no interest in hearing the other side of the story and ascertaining if your beliefs are in fact correct."

I don't think it's unreasonable to want to talk to other Christians about Christianity on the Christianity forum. According to you, wanting to discuss a topic with like minded people means I'm not serious about topic, unless someone is also shouting in my ear about how it's all nonsense? What, eh, nonsense. According to you if I want to discuss Christianity with Christians I first need to run the gauntlet and justify and defend my beliefs to an atheist? This is silly and again brings us back to question of what this forum is actually for.

It is quite arrogant of you really, to make some sort of assumption that I or others haven't given our beliefs a great deal of thought - this arrogance springs from a deep rooted position you have where you will never change your mind. (Of course, you can, with some degree of disingenuous comfort, state that you are open to changing your mind but you would need evidence of something you regard as an impossibility, so it is not a meaningful, honest statement on your part)

No, not sure where you are getting that from.

"But if you entitle a thread "Arguments in favour of the existence of God", then it's only natural (and correct) that non-Christians should post."

No, I'm atheist.

And also a tough crowd for a joke.

So what was the purpose of you posting in this thread? Your feedback is that atheists should still be allowed to post, but there should be also more Christians? So your feedback is that you want the mods to magic more Christians out of thin air? Good feedback, they'll see what they can do.

I was asked to provide some feedback on the forum by the OP. I will let him/her explain further why when they have a chance.

I am demonstrating to you how flawed your logic is that God may have his reasons for killing babies but certainly couldn't possibly have any reasons for having many atheists post in this forum. If you can easily accept the former but can't easily accept the latter, then I cannot help you.

I think I will let the fair minded reader draw their own conclusions on your, now oft repeated, "point".

Anyway, my point is that if Christians are getting crowded out on threads on the same points over and over, and as a result the forum is not very welcoming, few Christians will post. I think this is bad overall for the forum.

I am asking myself why would I, or a fellow Christian or Catholic, you did not want to engage in apologetics, bother posting on this forum? What is the difference between me posting here and on the atheist forum? I have done both and there is very little difference.

I don't have a solution, but identifying a problem is the first step to solving it. But perhaps a change in tone, content and approach by some posters would help.

John Hutton

John Hutton wrote: »

I don't think it's unreasonable to want to talk to other Christians about Christianity on the Christianity forum. According to you, wanting to discuss a topic with like minded people means I'm not serious about topic, unless someone is also shouting in my ear about how it's all nonsense? What, eh, nonsense.

No, but wanting to alienate non-Christians is. You don't have to reply to every comment that is made, even if that comment is a direct response to one of yours. Boards also has an ignore feature so that if there are particular atheists (cough) who you feel are constantly shouting at you then you can ignore them and their posts won't show. You can have conversations with like-minded people without the need to change anything.

John Hutton wrote: »

According to you if I want to discuss Christianity with Christians I first need to run the gauntlet and justify and defend my beliefs to an atheist? This is silly and again brings us back to question of what this forum is actually for.

No, if they have raised some good points and you can't think of an intelligent response then you can just ignore the comment.

It only takes a few seconds to read a comment. And for long comments you can usually figure out if it's a Christian or not after the first sentence or two. If you are able to sit through mass then I'm sure you'll manage just fine.

John Hutton wrote: »

It is quite arrogant of you really, to make some sort of assumption that I or others haven't given our beliefs a great deal of thought

I made no such assumption, I said that you wanting X implies that you are likely Y. I did not assume that you were Y.

John Hutton wrote: »

this arrogance springs from a deep rooted position you have where you will never change your mind.

I actually frequently switch between atheism and apatheism, and I in fact believe that it should be considered normal for people to switch frequently as new evidence is presented to them. It's in fact people who still believe as an adult the religion they were indoctrinated into as a child who very rarely change their beliefs. They typically believe what they believe because it's what they know most about and nothing more. Have you read the Koran for example? Or anything similar? I would take a wild guess that I know more about religion than you do, but I suppose another one of my wild assumptions might upset you.

John Hutton wrote: »

"But if you entitle a thread "Arguments in favour of the existence of God", then it's only natural (and correct) that non-Christians should post."

Yes, and I have no idea what your reply has to do with what I said. Atheists will naturally want to discuss a topic about the existence of God etc, but they are less likely to reply to a thread about a particular scripture etc. because that scripture in their view has no significance.

John Hutton wrote: »

I was asked to provide some feedback on the forum by the OP. I will let him/her explain further why when they have a chance.

And so what are you hoping will be done? You wrote a nice essay which could have been summed up in one sentence "I want more Christians in the Christian forum". How do you expect the mods to achieve this mind-blowing thought that you've had?

John Hutton wrote: »

I think I will let the fair minded reader draw their own conclusions on your, now oft repeated, "point".

You want me to post this in an atheist forum is it? (See, I'm capable of jokes. )

John Hutton wrote: »

Anyway, my point is that if Christians are getting crowded out on threads on the same points over and over, and as a result the forum is not very welcoming, few Christians will post. I think this is bad overall for the forum.

I assure you that a forum that tries to justify child cancer is already not very welcoming. (Another joke FYI.)

John Hutton wrote: »

I am asking myself why would I, or a fellow Christian or Catholic, you did not want to engage in apologetics, bother posting on this forum? What is the difference between me posting here and on the atheist forum? I have done both and there is very little difference.

There is a lot of difference, as I already said. If you post about a niche Christian topic, very few if any non-Christians will reply. In fact, in that sense, the Christianity forum is already more welcoming than the atheist forum as there very few thread topics in that forum that I can think of where there wouldn't be a possibility of a Christian responding.

John Hutton wrote: »

I don't have a solution, but identifying a problem is the first step to solving it. But perhaps a change in tone, content and approach by some posters would help.

I have been on Boards for 15 years. There has been atheists and Christians posting in each other's forum since I joined and before. You have not identified any problem, you have made a generalised comment that the mods and others are well aware of and that exists on any Christian forum on the internet. There are private Christian Facebook groups available if you want to have your Christian-only talks, but you won't have that here on a public forum.

John Hutton

Deleted User wrote: »

No, but wanting to alienate non-Christians is. You don't have to reply to every comment that is made, even if that comment is a direct response to one of yours. Boards also has an ignore feature so that if there are particular atheists (cough) who you feel are constantly shouting at you then you can ignore them and their posts won't show. You can have conversations with like-minded people without the need to change anything.

I like to post on threads and have discussions that are useful and interesting. Not having a good Christianity forum is no skin off my back. Do you think the forum is perfect, or anything approaching that?

No, if they have raised some good points and you can't think of an intelligent response then you can just ignore the comment.

It only takes a few seconds to read a comment. And for long comments you can usually figure out if it's a Christian or not after the first sentence or two. If you are able to sit through mass then I'm sure you'll manage just fine.

If you're sitting through Mass you're doing it wrong. Poor dig, 2/10.

I made no such assumption, I said that you wanting X implies that you are likely Y. I did not assume that you were Y.

I actually frequently switch between atheism and apatheism, and I in fact believe that it should be considered normal for people to switch frequently as new evidence is presented to them. It's in fact people who still believe as an adult the religion they were indoctrinated into as a child who very rarely change their beliefs. They typically believe what they believe because it's what they know most about and nothing more. Have you read the Koran for example? Or anything similar? I would take a wild guess that I know more about religion than you do, but I suppose another one of my wild assumptions might upset you.

Ah yes, indoctrinated John must be ignorant or thick, certainly in comparison to your good self.

Yes, and I have no idea what your reply has to do with what I said. Atheists will naturally want to discuss a topic about the existence of God etc, but they are less likely to reply to a thread about a particular scripture etc. because that scripture in their view has no significance.

If you read the first post in the thread, I shouldn't have to spoon feed you like this, but here:
"Everyone has a different journey to make regarding God, and He speaks to us and makes His presence known to each individual in different ways.

Personally, the exciting road I am on started off when I became truly open to the idea of the existence of "a" God. Before this I was a lapsed Catholic, probably agnostic if not atheist, only "resorting" to my faith in desperate times of crisis. In many ways I was a victim of the prevailing idea that there were no rational, philosophical or otherwise, arguments for the existence of God, and that you could only believe in this type of thing if you were stupid, or denied science.

But having the hunger for the truth, I began to explore these things more deeply, and discovered that there are "rational" arguments for the existence of God. Once I became open to the idea and possibility, indeed probability, of "a" God existing, things have flowed from there and as times goes on and I explore the scriptures etc, my faith has grown. But this wouldn't have happened without getting over that first hurdle.

As one example, I found Aquinas' five ways helpful. But I am interested in what other "rational" (by this I mean knowledge and understanding gained outside of immediate personal encounters with God/Holy Spirit/Grace etc.) arguments posters here have found helpful, because I think these open the door (they have for me anyway). So please do share."

And so what are you hoping will be done? You wrote a nice essay which could have been summed up in one sentence "I want more Christians in the Christian forum". How do you expect the mods to achieve this mind-blowing thought that you've had?

It is good practice to back up a point rather than leave it a mere statement.

You want me to post this in an atheist forum is it? (See, I'm capable of jokes. )

I assure you that a forum that tries to justify child cancer is already not very welcoming. (Another joke FYI.)

I see.

There is a lot of difference, as I already said. If you post about a niche Christian topic, very few if any non-Christians will reply. In fact, in that sense, the Christianity forum is already more welcoming than the atheist forum as there very few thread topics in that forum that I can think of where there wouldn't be a possibility of a Christian responding.

There is a difference between discussion and outright undermining and attacking. I don't have an issue with the latter, but what is the point of a Christianity forum? This is what I mean by tone, approach and content. So one can only have a discussion with Christians, without having to wade through the same, oft repeated arguments from atheists, if the thread is sufficiently obscure or boring so as to not attract their attention?

I have been on Boards for 15 years. There has been atheists and Christians posting in each other's forum since I joined and before. You have not identified any problem, you have made a generalised comment that the mods and others are well aware of and that exists on any Christian forum on the internet. There are private Christian Facebook groups available if you want to have your Christian-only talks, but you won't have that here on a public forum.

Again, at no stage did I say anyone should be stopped posting, but that its a pretty crap Christianity forum if the majority of vocal participants are atheists whose resultant posts send threads down the same avenue again and again. That doesnt mean that atheists shouldnt post, but rather a change in approach would be helpful.


Anyway, I posted on this thread because I was (very nicely) asked to offer my thoughts. I'm sorry you found them so aggravating.


Anyway, I think it will be interesting to see what the mod team have to say, hopefully they or others will find my thoughts less useless than you have.

Hotblack Desiato

John Hutton wrote: »

So you think that banning atheists from posting would attract more christian posters. Why do you think that?

That's not what I said, although it was the impression I was getting from your post - perhaps incorrectly.

Your final paragraph is quite revealing...

In what way?

John Hutton wrote: »

What if I want to discuss my beliefs with like minded individuals?

It's a problem if you mean discussing with ONLY like minded individuals. There is no forum on boards which works like that. Seems you want a private forum but making a fairly quiet forum more exclusionary will just guarantee its death.

IMO the Christianity forum charter already allows your beliefs a substantial degree of protection so I'm really not sure what it is you expect the mods to do.

I don't disagree with the general thrust of what you said but it doesn't really work if Christians are a minority on this forum and essentially "crowded out" does it?

As I said before, the fundamentalist Christian posters are imho more dissuading to the moderate Christians than anythiing atheists have ever posted.

But posts and threads are not a finite resource, atheists or others aren't using them up on you.

You mentioned a topic you want to discuss but yet you haven't created a thread on it. Be the change you wish to see in the world, and all that...

I am asking myself why would I, or a fellow Christian or Catholic, you did not want to engage in apologetics, bother posting on this forum? What is the difference between me posting here and on the atheist forum? I have done both and there is very little difference.

What's the point of starting threads about apologetics if only believers could discuss them?

I don't have a solution, but identifying a problem is the first step to solving it. But perhaps a change in tone, content and approach by some posters would help.

If you feel posts are not within the charter then report them. If you have suggestions for changes in the charter then surely this is the place to discuss them?

John Hutton

John Hutton wrote: »

I like to post on threads and have discussions that are useful and interesting. Not having a good Christianity forum is no skin off my back.

In what way is this not a good Christianity forum compared to other Christianity forums? Or, like your faith, do you only consider posting in this forum instead of considering the other possible forums?

John Hutton wrote: »

Do you think the forum is perfect, or anything approaching that?

Don't Christians always claim to be imperfect because they sin but that God will forgive them for such imperfections? Why do you feel that it is OK for you to be imperfect but not this forum?

John Hutton wrote: »

If you're sitting through Mass you're doing it wrong. Poor dig, 2/10.

Yes those are the odds for me attending a mass again in the future.

John Hutton wrote: »

Ah yes, indoctrinated John must be ignorant or thick, certainly in comparison to your good self.

Not at all, I have met many Christians who did proper research when deciding their faith and that I can have a constructive, thought-provoking debate with. The fact that this is the best response you have for what I said makes me think that you are not one of them, or at least that you have not read the major scriptures of other religions before deciding that Christianity was the one for you.

John Hutton wrote: »

If you read the first post in the thread, I shouldn't have to spoon feed you like this, but here:

And again, you are just pointing out that you completely misunderstood the point that Hotblack Desiato made.

John Hutton wrote: »

It is good practice to back up a point rather than leave it a mere statement.

But what is the point that you are trying to make? You have stated nothing in that rant of yours except for what is incredibly obvious to anyone who posts here, Christians or otherwise. It didn't need an essay. And for someone who is so bothered by having to read posts by atheists, you certainly don't seem to mind posting an essay about nothing that will annoy many Christians on this forum to read.

John Hutton wrote: »

There is a difference between discussion and outright undermining and attacking

There is, which is why, as Hotblack Desiato stated, there is a report button. Christians also attack other Christians on this forum, but I doubt that bothers you so much.

John Hutton wrote: »

I don't have an issue with the latter, but what is the point of a Christianity forum? This is what I mean by tone, approach and content. So one can only have a discussion with Christians, without having to wade through the same, oft repeated arguments from atheists, if the thread is sufficiently obscure or boring so as to not attract their attention?

In what way is any Christian topic discussed in this forum not the same, oft repeated discussion that has been had many times in the past? 99% of the the threads that are started here can be found in any Christian forum.

John Hutton wrote: »

Again, at no stage did I say anyone should be stopped posting

I think the forum can only be useful if Catholics and Christians actually use it. If they are outnumbered (in threads at least) by atheists why would I or anyone else, who wants to discuss their faith, actually post?

Again, either that is exactly what you said, or you expected the mods to perform a miracle and create more Christians.

John Hutton wrote: »

but that its a pretty crap Christianity forum if the majority of vocal participants are atheists whose resultant posts send threads down the same avenue again and again.

No, that does not make it a crap Christianity forum, it makes it the same as any other public Christianity forum. Same things happen in any public Jewish forum, atheist forum etc.

John Hutton wrote: »

Anyway, I posted on this thread because I was (very nicely) asked to offer my thoughts. I'm sorry you found them so aggravating.

You were asked to provide feedback, and all you did was vent that it bothers you that what is happening in the real world is also happening on this forum, namely that Christianity is on the decline and becoming the severe minority and you don't know what to do about it.

John Hutton wrote: »

Anyway, I think it will be interesting to see what the mod team have to say, hopefully they or others will find my thoughts less useless than you have.

That's the thing though, you have provided no help to them. You made them have to read through your long essay that has practically no content, no ideas on how to fix things etc. You have stated things that are incredibly obvious to anyone who has been on this forum for about five minutes and are things that the mods are certainly already fully aware of.

John Hutton

This is now beyond tedious - you are doing a lot of stretching in your suggestions about what my motivations and feelings are, and a good portion of your post, certainly your personalised comments about me, are unworthy of response.

s1ippy

I'm not even Christian but I think there's something to be said for having an application system whereby you have to apply for membership (like the soccer forum, lol) so that Christians can unpack the tenets of their faith without having to do all the basic justification of their beliefs to people who want to rubbish them.

I think the same thing about the conspiracy theory forum. There's an echo chamber and then there's just discussion with people who don't require the background from the ground up.

smacl

Mod:

As a moderator on this forum I started this thread having observed repeated posts that displayed blatant attacks on the Christian faith, to such an extent that the number of regular Christian posters was falling and this forum was becoming a place where Christianity was being covertly mocked more than discussed as a shared faith. This runs directly contrary to the first and possibly most important point of the charter.

1. The purpose of this forum is to discuss Christian belief in general, and specific elements of it, between Christians and non-Christians alike. This forum has the additional purpose of being a point on Boards.ie where Christians may ask other Christians questions about their shared faith. In this regard, Christians should not have to defend their faith from overt or subtle attack

For posters who's primary thrust is critical of Christianity, I would ask you to consider the highlighted section prior to posting and question whether what you are posting adds value to the discussion for all concerned or is simply letting off a bit of steam at the expense of others. Where your point can't be made without openly attacking the Christian faith without out adding substantive value to the discussion in hand, I would recommend making it in the A&A forum rather than here.

As mod I'm keen to encourage open, honest and considerate discussion among all posters here, once it is within the confines of the charter. For those posters who feel that this is not happening, I'd ask you to report the posts or PM me citing where the offending post fails to meet the charter and I will follow up. As examples of this, I consider comparison of belief in God to belief in unicorns, referring to God as a skyman, etc... to be in direct breach of the forum charter. Likewise, I consider sweeping generalizations about all atheists actually believing in God disrespectful of the stated beliefs of others and bordering on trolling. Similarly, repeatedly attacking God as evil on the basis of childhood cancer once this point has already been addressed ad nauseum constitutes soap-boxing. Going forward, all such posts will attract sanctions.

More simply perhaps, be nice to one another, engage honestly and respectfully, and enjoy the discussion. Thanks for your attention.

John Hutton

John Hutton wrote: »

This is now beyond tedious - you are doing a lot of stretching in your suggestions about what my motivations and feelings are, and a good portion of your post, certainly your personalised comments about me, are unworthy of response.

Not stretching, you have just run out of clever comebacks for the valid points made by both Hotblack Desiato and myself. If you can stretch out "I want more Christians on this forum" into an essay, we're certainly entitled to do likewise.

s1ippy

s1ippy wrote: »

I'm not even Christian but I think there's something to be said for having an application system whereby you have to apply for membership (like the soccer forum, lol) so that Christians can unpack the tenets of their faith without having to do all the basic justification of their beliefs to people who want to rubbish them.

I think the same thing about the conspiracy theory forum. There's an echo chamber and then there's just discussion with people who don't require the background from the ground up.

That is a huge forum and the mods naturally had difficulty in dealing with moderating so many unrelated or offensive posts. This is a tiny forum that can easily be moderated in comparison.

If you find a comment offensive or simply unhelpful, then you have three options:

1) Ignore the comment and move on
2) Use the Ignore button to ignore the user's comments in the future
3) Report the post

There doesn't need have to be any changes made. You'd be surprised at how many people write a rant complaining about a post someone has made instead of simply pressing the report button and letting the mods deal with it as they see fit.

smacl

Deleted User wrote: »

Not stretching, you have just run out of clever comebacks for the valid points made by both Hotblack Desiato and myself. If you can stretch out "I want more Christians on this forum" into an essay, we're certainly entitled to do likewise.

Mod: As a general point to all posters can I suggest that wherever possible you play the ball and not the man. Quite frankly, none of us knows the mind of other posters so it is unreasonable to speculate on their motivations. Please avoid this without very solid reason.

smacl

smacl wrote: »

Mod: As a general point to all posters can I suggest that wherever possible you play the ball and not the man. Quite frankly, none of us knows the mind of other posters so it is unreasonable to speculate on their motivations. Please avoid this without very solid reason.

Noted, I merely replied with the exact same tone as the message I was replying to and the assumed mindset he made of all atheists in this forum in his original rant.

smacl

John Hutton wrote: »

I don't blame the moderators, or the Charter, both seem good. But there are no Christian moderators, which seems very odd to me to be honest.

Odd to me too I was invited to consider the role by those higher up and asked a similar question. That said, I do my best to work in consideration of the stated and implicit goals of the forum and nourish discussion. Should you or any other poster find unreasonable bias in my moderation please let me or the CMods know.

John Hutton

smacl wrote: »

Odd to me too I was invited to consider the role by those higher up and asked a similar question. That said, I do my best to work in consideration of the stated and implicit goals of the forum and nourish discussion. Should you or any other poster find unreasonable bias in my moderation please let me or the CMods know.

Oh I dont mean to imply that you're biased, just thought it was strange is all.

My apologies John Hutton if my posts have upset you. But do you have any actual suggestions on how to fix whatever it is that you find wrong with the forum?

John Hutton

[Deleted User] wrote: »

My apologies John Hutton if my posts have upset you. But do you have any actual suggestions on how to fix whatever it is that you find wrong with the forum?

Thank you for your apology.

I think smacl covered quite well what the issue is:
As a moderator on this forum I started this thread having observed repeated posts that displayed blatant attacks on the Christian faith, to such an extent that the number of regular Christian posters was falling and this forum was becoming a place where Christianity was being covertly mocked more than discussed as a shared faith. This runs directly contrary to the first and possibly most important point of the charter

I think if there was more of a sincere attitude from all posters of wanting to learn about and engage with Christianity rather than to attack or rubbish it this forum would be better for everybody. There would also need to be very active moderation, not least to ensure that certain debates between Christian's and atheists were kept to the super threads rather than spilling over everywhere?

John Hutton

John Hutton wrote: »

I think if there was more of a sincere attitude from all posters of wanting to learn about and engage with Christianity rather than to attack or rubbish it this forum would be better for everybody. There would also need to be very active moderation, not least to ensure that certain debates between Christian's and atheists were kept to the super threads rather than spilling over everywhere?

And how would this be enforced? And what should be done about any Christians with an insincere attitude?

Edit: Perhaps the easiest thing to do is to point to a thread that you think smacl should have dealt with differently and explain how you think it should have been handled.

John Hutton

[Deleted User] wrote: »

And how would this be enforced? And what should be done about any Christians with an insincere attitude?

I said all posters. The moderators would need to exercise their judgement.

I have a question for you, do you accept the issue that smacl highlighted exists, and do you think that the forum would be better if more Christians posted on it?

John Hutton

John Hutton wrote: »

I said all posters. The moderators would need to exercise their judgement.

But in what way in your opinion is that not currently being done?

John Hutton wrote: »

I have a question for you, do you accept the issue that smacl highlighted exists, and do you think that the forum would be better if more Christians posted on it?

Yes, there are non-Christians in this forum who only post so that they feel superior in some way, as there is many of the other forums. If the mods feel like their post was offensive, they will be sanctioned, and if they were repeat offenders, they will be banned. In what way do you feel that this approach is not the correct one?

John Hutton wrote: »

and do you think that the forum would be better if more Christians posted on it?

Yes of course, that is true of any forum!

smacl

looksee wrote: »

I believe it is possible to start a thread with a 'Christian answers only' prefix? Is that a thing? I seem to recall - I have not been around in a while - that this prefix is respected.

Mod: We're going to try this to see how it pans out. Note that it is in addition to other recommended behaviour for specific threads and does not replace it.

smacl

John Hutton wrote: »

There would also need to be very active moderation, not least to ensure that certain debates between Christian's and atheists were kept to the super threads rather than spilling over everywhere?

Note this is already dealt with in the forum to some degree, list of such threads here.

John Hutton

John Hutton wrote: »

Thank you for your apology.

I think smacl covered quite well what the issue is:
As a moderator on this forum I started this thread having observed repeated posts that displayed blatant attacks on the Christian faith, to such an extent that the number of regular Christian posters was falling and this forum was becoming a place where Christianity was being covertly mocked more than discussed as a shared faith. This runs directly contrary to the first and possibly most important point of the charter

I think if there was more of a sincere attitude from all posters of wanting to learn about and engage with Christianity rather than to attack or rubbish it this forum would be better for everybody. There would also need to be very active moderation, not least to ensure that certain debates between Christian's and atheists were kept to the super threads rather than spilling over everywhere?

I wouldn't have even called it covert. It was and is overtly mocked. Despite the reporting of such posts it has continued from the same people.

So much for the charter!

smacl

smacl wrote: »

Mod: We're going to try this to see how it pans out. Note that it is in addition to other recommended behaviour for specific threads and does not replace it.

I suggested this eons ago and it was dismissed as being sectarian or some such phrase.
Respect by the athiests who come on here for the charter would be a start. They would be banned on other forums for continued flouting of the charters. Seems undue leniency is given on this forum.

smacl

SouthWesterly wrote: »

I suggested this eons ago and it was dismissed as being sectarian or some such phrase.
Respect by the athiests who come on here for the charter would be a start. They would be banned on other forums for continued flouting of the charters. Seems undue leniency is given on this forum.

Mod: As a mod I'm relatively new here and can only make changes going forward, hence this thread. Where you see a post that you consider breaches the charter, please report it stating how and where it breaches the charter and I will deal with it accordingly.

SouthWesterly

SouthWesterly wrote: »

I wouldn't have even called it covert. It was and is overtly mocked. Despite the reporting of such posts it has continued from the same people.

So much for the charter!

I'm surprised the charter is so important to you here seeing as how it's not so important to you in the Atheist forum.
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=114090299&postcount=626

John Hutton

smacl wrote: »

Mod: As a mod I'm relatively new here and can only make changes going forward, hence this thread. Where you see a post that you consider breaches the charter, please report it stating how and where it breaches the charter and I will deal with it accordingly.

Hiw will this work, is there like a drop down, or do you just type something into the thread title, what should it be? (For consistencies sake!)

Peregrinus

John Hutton wrote: »

Hiw will this work, is there like a drop down, or do you just type something into the thread title, what should it be? (For consistencies sake!)

To the right of each post you should see an icon of a red triangular traffic sign with an exclamation mark inside it. Click on that to report the post. You'll be taken to a screen where you can input a few lines of text to say why you think the post is problematic.

smacl

John Hutton wrote: »

Hiw will this work, is there like a drop down, or do you just type something into the thread title, what should it be? (For consistencies sake!)

On other forums such as here the subject is tagged with square brackets. When you create a post in these forums it gives you the option to prefix the title. I'll ask the powers that be to add a drop down list here but for now, just manually add a prefix of Christians only or similar and I'll moderate accordingly.

smacl

Following a very speedy response from Mark in Admin we now have the option to prefix new posts as [All], i.e. designed to be open to all posters, and [Christians Only], i.e. this question is aimed at Christians only and you would prefer that non-Christians do not post on this thread. I would ask any non-Christians who post here to respect these tags and will moderate accordingly. Posting without a tag assumes that the thread is intended for all posters.

I would further ask anyone posting in a thread tagged as [Christians Only] to also particularly consider the charter with respect to intolerance towards creeds, beliefs, lifestyles or opinions that differ from one's own, as this tag is effectively limits the right to reply for non-Christians.

And before anyone cheeky asks, no this tag does not apply to moderation

John Hutton

smacl wrote: »

Following a very speedy response from Mark in Admin we now have the option to prefix new posts as [All], i.e. designed to be open to all posters, and [Christians Only], i.e. this question is aimed at Christians only and you would prefer that non-Christians do not post on this thread. I would ask any non-Christians who post here to respect these tags and will moderate accordingly. Posting without a tag assumes that the thread is intended for all posters.

I would further ask anyone posting in a thread tagged as [Christians Only] to also particularly consider the charter with respect to intolerance towards creeds, beliefs, lifestyles or opinions that differ from one's own, as this tag is effectively limits the right to reply for non-Christians.

And before anyone cheeky asks, no this tag does not apply to moderation

That was very speedy fair play

Manach

I’ve been posting on this forum for a while. The difference I’ve noticed is that while other fora are usually populated by posters who are interested in the community’s common interest, the Christianity forum is another arena in the Kulterkamf. One suggestion is to split the forum into one devoted to Religious discussions and another one with a charter devoted to interfaith/intra-faith dialog that is based on discussing news and issues about Christianity. However this has been floated as an idea before without avail. So another suggestion, to borrow from Reddit, is to allow flors to at least identify tpeople's stances.

smacl

Manach wrote: »

I’ve been posting on this forum for a while. The difference I’ve noticed is that while other fora are usually populated by posters who are interested in the community’s common interest, the Christianity forum is another arena in the Kulterkamf. One suggestion is to split the forum into one devoted to Religious discussions and another one with a charter devoted to interfaith/intra-faith dialog that is based on discussing news and issues about Christianity. However this has been floated as an idea before without avail. So another suggestion, to borrow from Reddit, is to allow flors to at least identify tpeople's stances.

Not a reddit user, so not quite sure what you mean by the above. Short term plan is to keep it simple by enforcing the charter more strictly than has been done in the past with a focus on dealing with those primarily using this forum to vent their woes with the Church. A&A forum already does that to a large extent so it is not like their being denied a voice.

While not a huge fan of censorship, I'm also going to delete one-liners that are in clear breach of the charter on the basis that they primarily attract more of the same. Where the same posters do this repeatedly without making any useful contribution to the discussion in hand, the plan is to first infract and then ban them. I'm open to people's thoughts on the above.

Most importantly perhaps, I'd ask all of you who do want to engage in pertinent discussion continue doing so. The additional moderation is intended to encourage rather than stymie discussion and without your input the forum is going nowhere.

Hotblack Desiato

smacl wrote: »

I would further ask anyone posting in a thread tagged as [Christians Only]

This decision imho sets a poor precedent for Boards in general.

Imagine how ridiculous it would be in Politics if you could tag a thread "How do you think the government is doing? [Fine Gael voters only]" or in Soccer "Pep Guardiola is a fraud [Non-City fans only]" ?

I read the Soccer forum a good bit and post there from time to time. It can get quite tribal and has needed a lot of mod intervention at times. But even there, there are no threads which are off-limits to people because they support the wrong "side".

It is often alleged in Politics and CA and (so far, rightly) strenuously denied - that there is the moderation of opinions not charter breaches. Have we now introduced this - moderation of opinions?

Have the admins approved this? I'd like to hear their reasoning on this and why a basic principle of Boards - that forums and threads belong to everyone not to a clique - has been tossed aside.

to also particularly consider the charter with respect to intolerance towards creeds, beliefs, lifestyles or opinions that differ from one's own, as this tag is effectively limits the right to reply for non-Christians.

And straight away we hit the first problem. The right to reply of posters within normal Boards rules of civility, etc. has been taken away. Talk about people but don't be too nasty about them as we've banned them from responding...

John Hutton

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

This decision imho sets a poor precedent for Boards in general.

Imagine how ridiculous it would be in Politics if you could tag a thread "How do you think the government is doing? [Fine Gael voters only]" or in Soccer "Pep Guardiola is a fraud [Non-City fans only]" ?

I read the Soccer forum a good bit and post there from time to time. It can get quite tribal and has needed a lot of mod intervention at times. But even there, there are no threads which are off-limits to people because they support the wrong "side".

It is often alleged in Politics and CA and (so far, rightly) strenuously denied - that there is the moderation of opinions not charter breaches. Have we now introduced this - moderation of opinions?

Have the admins approved this? I'd like to hear their reasoning on this and why a basic principle of Boards - that forums and threads belong to everyone not to a clique - has been tossed aside.




And straight away we hit the first problem. The right to reply of posters within normal Boards rules of civility, etc. has been taken away. Talk about people but don't be too nasty about them as we've banned them from responding...

But what if it were a (shudder) Fine Gael forum?

John Hutton

I think the changes are worth a chance if people don't take the proverbial with the "Christians Only" option

Hotblack Desiato

Got a mod warning for this part of this post:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=114838081&postcount=9

All of the Irish hierarchy who covered up abuse (did any NOT?) deserved to go to prison as well, but there is zero chance of any investigation into their crimes here.

because it is a "sweeping statement relating to abuse".

Now if I'd said:

"All of the Irish hierarchy covered up abuse" then yes, that would be a sweeping statement. But that's not what I said.

I don't think it's controversial to say that people who obstruct justice should face sanction.

"did any NOT?" is asking a question, albeit in a pointed fashion. Afaik all of the dioceses received unfavourable reports for covering up abuse and failing to report allegations to the police. So who among the hierarchy has clean hands? We'll never know. As for the abuse superthread, the only reason a thread on Pell exists is because of his abuse trial so by that logic all posts in the thread should be moved there.

Hotblack Desiato

John Hutton wrote: »

But what if it were a (shudder) Fine Gael forum?

There is no way such a suggestion for a forum would be entertained, and rightly so.

John Hutton

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

There is no way such a suggestion for a forum would be entertained, and rightly so.

Way to dance around the point.


Why won't you give the changes a chance? No one has even started a Christians only thread. All that has happened thus far, is what you wanted, enforcement of the current charter.

riffmongous

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

This decision imho sets a poor precedent for Boards in general.

Imagine how ridiculous it would be in Politics if you could tag a thread "How do you think the government is doing? [Fine Gael voters only]" or in Soccer "Pep Guardiola is a fraud [Non-City fans only]" ?

I read the Soccer forum a good bit and post there from time to time. It can get quite tribal and has needed a lot of mod intervention at times. But even there, there are no threads which are off-limits to people because they support the wrong "side".

It is often alleged in Politics and CA and (so far, rightly) strenuously denied - that there is the moderation of opinions not charter breaches. Have we now introduced this - moderation of opinions?

Have the admins approved this? I'd like to hear their reasoning on this and why a basic principle of Boards - that forums and threads belong to everyone not to a clique - has been tossed aside.




And straight away we hit the first problem. The right to reply of posters within normal Boards rules of civility, etc. has been taken away. Talk about people but don't be too nasty about them as we've banned them from responding...

From the belief that the point of Boards is to facilitate discussion and the difference between restricting some threads and keeping the current free for all is a reduction in discussion versus an eventual end to all discussion through user flight, then for me it's clear which choice to make.
If something like a safe space is what is needed then I'd be in favour of it, if it's not already too late for the forum

Hotblack Desiato

They turned the Islam forum into a "safe space" and it died completely.

Hotblack Desiato

John Hutton wrote: »

Way to dance around the point.

It's not dancing around the point. It is the point.

Why won't you give the changes a chance? No one has even started a Christians only thread. All that has happened thus far, is what you wanted, enforcement of the current charter.

This was proposed before more than once here in the past, and rejected. So what changed? The concept of having threads only certain posters are allowed to post in is repellent.
Anyway I give it about a week until the "who is a real Christian" arguments start.

Rather than create christian-only threads I'd have thought a reiteration that the Christian forum was a space for those of that faith.

In the same way that it is poor form- and against charter- for theists to post in A&A as if their beliefs were to be respected as they would sometimes wish, surely there was room for atheists/agnostics to give the same courtesy (enforced by mods as required) to not turn up in a Christian space in full pugnacity?

Time and a place, and all that.

Disappointing to see this, personally- don't see it solving anything and disappointing that it was seen as required.