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Is the possibility of a God not a scary thought...?

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    #62
    John Hutton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭John Hutton


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    Tie that in with a God that apparently created childhood cancer for some sadistic reason.
    If God is all knowing, is it not possible that these things happen for a reason we cannot comprehend, for reasons which are not "sadistic"?

    The answer is, of course, "yes, it is possible".

    "God cannot exist because children get cancer" is not a statement that stands up to examination.

    (And it is always worth remembering that God send his Son to suffer terribly and die, and through this redeem mankind).


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    #63
    SouthWesterly
    Registered Users Posts: 6,536 ✭✭✭SouthWesterly


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    Tie that in with a God that apparently created childhood cancer for some sadistic reason.

    Show me where he created childhood cancer. When exactly did He create it.
    Is childhood cancer different from adult cancer?


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    #64
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,143 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    Kyree Icy Reforestation wrote: »
    ...
    You have painted an image of a tyrant who demands utter submission while causing untold misery. You are right - if this god existed, the world would be an insane and scary place.
    ...

    1) Much of our suffering is self inflicted;
    2) We learn from our suffering, sometimes it is the only way we will learn; and
    3) Something went wrong at the beginning of man's existence. The Bible shrouds it in mystery (The Garden of Eden narrative), but something is undoubtedly not as it should be. For example, why do we have such powerful inclinations to do evil? Whatever happened, we are still living with the consequences of that event, consequences which translate into major suffering.

    ...

    To sum up, do not give up on a relationship with God, who is a loving, caring and merciful God. It is the greatest adventure you could possibly embark on. You will do things you have never dreamed of doing.

    Sure, looking back on our life, the evil we have done might fill us with dread, but the truth is that every saint has a past and every sinner has a future. At life's end, we will all be judged (because God is also a just God), but the good news is that our sins can be forgiven in the sacrament of Confession. The slate can be made clean.

    "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9)

    [Jesus to disciples]"If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.” (John 20:23)

    I would advise you to pray to God, in your own words. Get yourself a copy of the New Testament and the Catechism, study them, get to know God and cease your fear and trembling. ;)

    You have painted an image of a tyrant who demands utter submission while causing untold misery. You are right - if this god existed, the world would be an insane and scary place.
    And the world was an insane and scary place for centuries while the church held sway at its height of power. Its only now that people are becoming more rational and able to think for themselves that rationality has emerged.

    For example, why do we have such powerful inclinations to do evil? I cannot recall any circumstance where I might have had such inclinations. Oh granted, I am not perfect, but evil? No, not at all. And of all the people I have ever known personally there was maybe one that was seriously disturbed, a few that were selfish and/or obnoxious. But evil, no.

    And the business about confession, little children are taught to search their minds for things to confess, small, childish things that they are made to feel guilty for, and you are comparing it to evil?

    And ordinary men were given the power to decide who should be 'forgiven', whether they knew what forgiveness other people might need? Is there any wonder the church leadership became populated with arrogant, opinionated, authoritarians.

    It is the greatest adventure you could possibly embark on. You will do things you have never dreamed of doing.
    - For example? If not specifically, what kind of things are you talking about?

    Sure, looking back on our life, the evil we have done might fill us with dread
    Well I have a good bit of life to look back on and am not filled with dread. I may not have got everything right, I probably got very little absolutely right, but I can promise you there was no evil.

    and cease your fear and trembling. Reading your post I can see how anyone might be excused for wondering where the love came in and might indeed be in fear and trembling.

    I think this is the problem, there is the original message and then there is the layers and heaps and mountains of interpretation, hindsight and remembering that has been put on it since, and including, the time the gospels were written between 40 and 100 years after Jesus' death.

    I realise as I write that my comments are not about God or Christianity particularly, they are about the way any message has been meddled with by people speaking on God's behalf over the last 2000 years.


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    #65
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,114 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Kyree Icy Reforestation wrote: »
    You have painted an image of a tyrant who demands utter submission while causing untold misery. You are right - if this god existed, the world would be an insane and scary place.

    Yet three of the ten commandments are about worshipping this god - seems a bit self-obsessed.
    Did you ever consider that God came and died for you on the cross, to save you from the consequences of your sins?

    Save us from a punishment created by that god?
    He openly claimed to be the Son of God, to be divine. Therefore, He was a) bad, leading people astray for personal gain b)mad, leading people astray because He lost his mind or c) God, as in He was who He said He was. Considering what He taught (love, forgiveness, sacrifice, salvation, friendship with God), if you are unwilling to call Him crazy or evil, than could He possibly be....God?

    What about (d) none of the above. The gospels were written long after his death and no doubt a great deal of embellishment went on. Jesus died a Jew.
    I would advise you to pray to God, in your own words. Get yourself a copy of the New Testament and the Catechism, study them, get to know God and cease your fear and trembling. ;)

    So ignore the old testament - where there is plenty of the smiting you said your god doesn't do?
    The NT is certainly not all peace and love either, although what is presented in the Catholic mass in particular is heavily cherry-picked.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #66
    Bubbaclaus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    SouthWesterly wrote: »
    Show me where he created childhood cancer. When exactly did He create it.
    Is childhood cancer different from adult cancer?

    I was under the impression he created everything.


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    #67
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    John Hutton wrote: »
    If God is all knowing, is it not possible that these things happen for a reason we cannot comprehend, for reasons which are not "sadistic"?

    The answer is, of course, "yes, it is possible".

    "God cannot exist because children get cancer" is not a statement that stands up to examination.

    (And it is always worth remembering that God send his Son to suffer terribly and die, and through this redeem mankind).

    God can still exist because children get cancer, just not a particularly nice God. Saying that it's OK that he invented something that has killed many babies (possibly the only living humans that have never sinned) because "he has good reasons that we could never possibly understand" is quite the get-out-of-jail-free card. Remind me to use it if I ever feel like cheating on my partner.
    SouthWesterly wrote: »
    Show me where he created childhood cancer. When exactly did He create it.
    Is that a serious question?


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    #68
    John Hutton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭John Hutton


    Deleted User wrote: »
    God can still exist because children get cancer, just not a particularly nice God. Saying that it's OK that he invented something that has killed many babies (possibly the only living humans that have never sinned) because "he has good reasons that we could never possibly understand" is quite the get-out-of-jail-free card. Remind me to use it if I ever feel like cheating on my partner.
    OK, so we have arrived at a position where you accept that the "problem of evil" has no bearing on the existence of God. This is progress.



    Your excuse might work, should you be an all powerful and all knowing God. I have no doubt your wife is very fond of you, but I doubt she thinks that highly of you :)


    Seriously though, it is perfectly logically sound to postulate that an all knowing and powerful God allows things to happen for an ultimate good reason that we cannot, at this stage of our existence, understand or comprehend.


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    #69
    Morgans
    Registered Users Posts: 4,354 ✭✭✭Morgans


    John Hutton wrote: »
    OK, so we have arrived at a position where you accept that the "problem of evil" has no bearing on the existence of God. This is progress.



    Your excuse might work, should you be an all powerful and all knowing God. I have no doubt your wife is very fond of you, but I doubt she thinks that highly of you :)


    Seriously though, it is perfectly logically sound to postulate that an all knowing and powerful God allows things to happen for an ultimate good reason that we cannot, at this stage of our existence, understand or comprehend.

    Childhood cancer and worse is allowed to exist, which God could prevent but chooses not to, for reasons we cannot comprehend. Just need to have faith, despite the lack of any evidence.

    Sucks for the kid with cancer.

    It is perfectly sound to postulate that all knowing and all powerful Gods attrbution of suffering to those most vulnerable and most innocent isn't worthy of worship from anyone.


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    #70
    SouthWesterly
    Registered Users Posts: 6,536 ✭✭✭SouthWesterly


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    I was under the impression he created everything.

    I suggest you read Romans.. Death came by sin. Cancer is a form of death but if I really thought you were open to a discussion rather than the who wants a god who kills children I'd expand, but you don't.


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    #71
    one world order
    Registered Users Posts: 592 ✭✭✭one world order


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    So unless they are 100% devout they are pretty much condemning themselves to an eternity in hell?

    What about the people who have never heard of "jesus" how does one "accept Jesus and receive the holy spirit" if they don't know who he is/was?

    Those who never heard of the gospel still know God exists, they have been given a moral standard. They still need to humble themselves before God and it will be by the grace of God if they will be saved.

    The gospel is God's chosen means of bringing the conviction of sin to mankind and calling people to him. Luke warm Christians are those who don't think they need to repent of anything or spend time with Jesus. They compare themselves to other people rather than to God's standard.

    Receiving the holy spirit is first accepting you are a sinner, that Jesus paid the penalty for your sin, asking Jesus privately for repentance of your sins and having a personal relationship with Jesus. Then you will be given the holy spirit which involves a transformation of the soul and heart. For many though, they instead trust the world and mock God or think they are a good person by their own standard, resulting in their soul been cast down to hell.


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    #72
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,434 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    SouthWesterly wrote: »
    I suggest you read Romans.. Death came by sin. Cancer is a form of death but if I really thought you were open to a discussion rather than the who wants a god who kills children I'd expand, but you don't.

    But not everyone dies from it, some are cured.

    So why does "god" allow them to get cancer and suffer?


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    #73
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,434 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    SouthWesterly wrote: »
    I suggest you read Romans.. Death came by sin. Cancer is a form of death but if I really thought you were open to a discussion rather than the who wants a god who kills children I'd expand, but you don't.

    But not everyone dies from it, some are cured.

    So why does "god" allow them to get cancer and suffer?


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    #74
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    John Hutton wrote: »
    OK, so we have arrived at a position where you accept that the "problem of evil" has no bearing on the existence of God. This is progress.

    Yes, the problem of evil has to do with both nature and nurture and has nothing to do with God. As with every other human trait.
    John Hutton wrote: »
    Seriously though, it is perfectly logically sound to postulate that an all knowing and powerful God allows things to happen for an ultimate good reason that we cannot, at this stage of our existence, understand or comprehend.

    So you feel like babies dying could be part of God's master plan, but something trivial like atheists posting in this forum certainly couldn't be and must be dealt with?


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    #75
    John Hutton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭John Hutton


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Yes, the problem of evil has to do with both nature and nurture and has nothing to do with God. As with every other human trait.
    "The problem of evil" is a well established philosophical term for the discussion around whether the existence of evil in this world is reconcilable with the existence of God.
    So you feel like babies dying could be part of God's master plan, but something trivial like atheists posting in this forum certainly couldn't be and must be dealt with?
    This is unworthy.


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    #76
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    John Hutton wrote: »
    "The problem of evil" is a well established philosophical term for the discussion around whether the existence of evil in this world is reconcilable with the existence of God.

    I am aware and my response was made as such.
    John Hutton wrote: »
    This is unworthy.

    So in your opinion there are some babies that are not worthy enough to continue living, but there are no atheists worthy enough to continue posting in this forum?


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    #77
    John Hutton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭John Hutton


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I am aware and my response was made as such.
    "the problem of evil has to do with both nature and nurture and has nothing to do with God" Then this is just nonsensical, rather than a simple misunderstanding of terms.
    So in your opinion there are some babies that are not worthy enough to continue living, but there are no atheists worthy enough to continue posting in this forum?
    Where are you getting this nonsense from?


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    #78
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    John Hutton wrote: »
    I am aware and my response was made as such.
    "the problem of evil has to do with both nature and nurture and has nothing to do with God" Then this is just nonsensical, rather than a simple misunderstanding of terms.

    Go on then, explain.

    John Hutton wrote: »
    Where are you getting this nonsense from?

    I am merely quoting what you said. You feel like God could certainly has justifiable reasons for allowing babies to die, but he certainly couldn't possibly have any reasons for allowing atheists to post in this forum.


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    #79
    John Hutton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭John Hutton


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I am merely quoting what you said. You feel like God could certainly has justifiable reasons for allowing babies to die, but he certainly couldn't possibly have any reasons for allowing atheists to post in this forum.
    You are not "merely quoting" what I said. You seem to struggle with terms, so maybe by "quoting" you mean "grossly distorting and misrepresenting"?


    At no stage did I say that atheists should not be allowed to post here. But lets keep the feedback thread to the feedback thread.


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    #80
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    John Hutton wrote: »
    You are not "merely quoting" what I said. You seem to struggle with terms, so maybe by "quoting" you mean "grossly distorting and misrepresenting"?


    At no stage did I say that atheists should not be allowed to post here. But lets keep the feedback thread to the feedback thread.
    I think the forum can only be useful if Catholics and Christians actually use it. If they are outnumbered (in threads at least) by atheists why would I or anyone else, who wants to discuss their faith, actually post?

    In what other way should I interpret this? Or are you just using the feedback thread to vent?


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    #81
    SouthWesterly
    Registered Users Posts: 6,536 ✭✭✭SouthWesterly


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    But not everyone dies from it, some are cured.

    So why does "god" allow them to get cancer and suffer?

    Why did sin and death enter the world? Nothing to do with God 'allowing' it. Sickness and death are a consequence of sin
    Adam was told that but thought the devil knew better.


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    #82
    Bubbaclaus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    SouthWesterly wrote: »
    I suggest you read Romans.. Death came by sin. Cancer is a form of death but if I really thought you were open to a discussion rather than the who wants a god who kills children I'd expand, but you don't.

    What sin has a child committed exactly?


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    #83
    SouthWesterly
    Registered Users Posts: 6,536 ✭✭✭SouthWesterly


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    What sin has a child committed exactly?

    Sin is in the dna of humanity. All are in rebellion to their creator.


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    #84
    Bubbaclaus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    SouthWesterly wrote: »
    Sin is in the dna of humanity. All are in rebellion to their creator.

    I see. So God is punishing all of humanity (and all other forms of life for some reason) with death, in many cases slow and painful, due to sin.

    He sounds lovely altogether.


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    #85
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,114 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    John Hutton wrote: »
    Seriously though, it is perfectly logically sound to postulate that an all knowing and powerful God allows things to happen for an ultimate good reason that we cannot, at this stage of our existence, understand or comprehend.

    That doesn't advance us at all from Epicurus' trilemma -

    Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
    Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
    Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
    Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #86
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,114 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    SouthWesterly wrote: »
    Why did sin and death enter the world? Nothing to do with God 'allowing' it.

    So either god was powerless to prevent this, or chose not to, I don't know which is worse tbh.
    Sickness and death are a consequence of sin
    Adam was told that but thought the devil knew better.

    Doesn't seem to me that in the book of Genesis Adam was fully appraised of the supposed consequences of his actions. Not just for himself, but apparently for an entire species of billions yet to be born.

    None of this is compatible with the concept of a loving god.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #87
    John Hutton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭John Hutton


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    That doesn't advance us at all from Epicurus' trilemma -

    Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
    Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
    Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
    Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
    I find that trilemma quite weak, because it is logically possible for God to be omnipotent, good and for evil to still exist.



    This has been done to death by smarter people than you and I, but one point to consider is that of free will. Where there is free will there must be evil, or at least the possibility of it.



    Or the point that you were responding to, that sometimes evil can happen for an ultimate greater good. Sometimes this is apparent to us, sometimes it may not be.


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    #88
    John Hutton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭John Hutton


    As a general point, you can't take "half" the Christian story and leave it at that. There is the fall of man, but there is also the redemption of man.

    I find it interesting how some are happy to accept, for the purposes of argument (attacking the faith of others), aspects of faith or teaching that they view as objectionable (God is nasty for throwing Adam and Eve out of the garden, what a so and so etc etc) but outright dismissing other aspects that are more favourable and should be taken together with the aforementioned (none of that Jesus guff or the redemption of man, or Christ in Glory, or the resurrection of the dead, or heaven, or the new earth etc. etc.)

    It's not an honest tactic in my opinion.


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    #89
    auspicious
    Registered Users Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭auspicious


    I've had the thought that 'God' was meticulously planning a perfect creation but by accident, with its below, knocked over a beaker and our universe was born and it thought " To hell with it I'll just see what happens.".


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    #90
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,143 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    I believe it is possible to start a thread with a 'Christian answers only' prefix? Is that a thing? I seem to recall - I have not been around in a while - that this prefix is respected.

    I have no desire to mix into a discussion that requests only believers' arguments, but in all other cases it is surely desirable that Christian minds be exercised in thinking through objections and observations that are not simply in line with conventional belief. Even Christianity needs to grow, and within the bounds of belief there can be matters that need discussion. Why else are you here? If you want an echo chamber there are lots of sites where you can just agree with people.


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    #91
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,723 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    looksee wrote: »
    I believe it is possible to start a thread with a 'Christian answers only' prefix? Is that a thing? I seem to recall - I have not been around in a while - that this prefix is respected.

    Seems reasonable, will copy this to the feedback thread.


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