Forgiving/Unforgiving

ShatterAlan

Immortal Starlight wrote: »

I think if a previously healthy intimate relationship has degraded to the point that one person has checked out emotionally or sexually there has to be a reason. If one person is so unhappy or unsatisfied that they feel a real need to go elsewhere to have their needs met then they need to have a conversation with their partner. I personally would rather talk until my throat bleeds and try to sort out what’s going on than jump into bed with someone else behind my partners back if I was lucky enough to have one.
I know life is messy and of course you can be attracted to someone else while you’re in an existing relationship. We are all only human but I think a line should be drawn under one relationship before you act on that attraction if you feel that strongly that you need to.

Anyone who sees things in black and white isn't mentally equipped to handle the complexities of the real world.
There can be a whole plethora of reasons why things happen and can happen and this zero tolerance bullsh1t approach is not at all clever

ShatterAlan

Immortal Starlight wrote: »

It's a black and white issue for me and I wouldn't have any time for someone who could do that to be honest.

And what in the case of a woman who has raised a bunch of kids and cared for her husband but is now no longer paid attention to. The husband doesn't really talk to her and certainly doesn't romance her. They haven't had sex in years. Other than that she has a family and security for her children.
Would you begrudge her meeting someone on occasion for a bit of intimacy?

hayoc

Immortal Starlight wrote: »

I think if a previously healthy intimate relationship has degraded to the point that one person has checked out emotionally or sexually there has to be a reason. If one person is so unhappy or unsatisfied that they feel a real need to go elsewhere to have their needs met then they need to have a conversation with their partner. I personally would rather talk until my throat bleeds and try to sort out what’s going on than jump into bed with someone else behind my partners back if I was lucky enough to have one.
I know life is messy and of course you can be attracted to someone else while you’re in an existing relationship. We are all only human but I think a line should be drawn under one relationship before you act on that attraction if you feel that strongly that you need to.

100% agree with this.

My husband never told me he had checked out emotionally or otherwise. If Id been asked the day before I found out I would have told you we had a great marriage, we had a great sex life, there were no problems. We had just bought a house, we were planning a holiday.

He was concealing a double life for years, on the one hand pretending to be a happily married man, on the other entertaining a mistress and using prostitutes. Thats completely unacceptable.

ALL of the damage done to me has been as a result of the betrayal - Im not even bothered that the marriage is over - who would want to be married to someone who didnt want to be married to them? He could have ended the marriage and it would have been upsetting - but it would have been nothing compared to the damage done from the years of betrayal.

ShatterAlan

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Anyone who sees things in black and white isn't mentally equipped to handle the complexities of the real world.
There can be a whole plethora of reasons why things happen and can happen and this zero tolerance bullsh1t approach is not at all clever

This is a very valid point in lots of situations but not when it comes to cheating imo.
Anyone who thinks you can sit down and discuss how and why it happened, accept the reasons and go back to how things were prior to the cheating is delusional. I've seen couples move on and stay together but it's never the same,always a doubt there and the majority only do so because it's so difficult to separate when there's a house,kids etc involved. It's an existence due to circumstances in most cases.

Sardonicat

ShatterAlan wrote: »

And what in the case of a woman who has raised a bunch of kids and cared for her husband but is now no longer paid attention to. The husband doesn't really talk to her and certainly doesn't romance her. They haven't had sex in years. Other than that she has a family and security for her children.
Would you begrudge her meeting someone on occasion for a bit of intimacy?

How 'intimate' are you in reality when you have to skulk around for quickies?.How cold snd cynical. That's just scratching an itch. When a marraige is that bad you speak up for your needs and try to fix it or call it and look for actual intimacy within a new relationship.

hayoc

hayoc wrote: »

100% agree with this.

My husband never told me he had checked out emotionally or otherwise. If Id been asked the day before I found out I would have told you we had a great marriage, we had a great sex life, there were no problems. We had just bought a house, we were planning a holiday.

He was concealing a double life for years, on the one hand pretending to be a happily married man, on the other entertaining a mistress and using prostitutes. Thats completely unacceptable.

ALL of the damage done to me has been as a result of the betrayal - Im not even bothered that the marriage is over - who would want to be married to someone who didnt want to be married to them? He could have ended the marriage and it would have been upsetting - but it would have been nothing compared to the damage done from the years of betrayal.

You poor thing. I hope you find some peace and recovery soon. I can't imagine the impact of that, I'm not surprised you're devastated. I know I would struggle to cope with a situation like that. Hugs to you.

My first bf cheated on me, and managed to make me believe it was my fault. I was young, he was young, and he'd never really had to take responsibility for anything so he found a way to blame me. To be honest, he wasn't a bad person, just a bit selfish and entitled. He's grown out of that, and is genuinely a lovely person (as he was back then, bar the cheating). I'd never be able to trust him again though.

I think it's different when you're married, or long term, or just past the teenage years. There comes a point where you have to live with the fact that what you want isn't the most important thing in the world all the time, and do the decent thing by others.

People aren't raised like they used to be. They are encouraged to be more selfish, to put themselves first. Not a lot wrong with that, if you don't forget that it shouldn't be at the expense of someone else.

hayoc

Candie wrote: »

You poor thing. I hope you find some peace and recovery soon. I can't imagine the impact of that, I'm not surprised you're devastated. I know I would struggle to cope with a situation like that. Hugs to you.

Thank you. I am struggling. I have considered suicide on a number of occasions, just because the pain is so bad. I have developed mental health and physical health issues from the trauma.

I am not in a good place yet, maybe some day. I knew him for 30 years, so it was basically like finding out I was married to a stranger. I never would have suspected it. Or thought him capable of it. Even if the prostitute he was using or his mistress had contacted me to tell me what was going on I would not have believed it. He used that trust against me.

His whole family ghosted me when the ugly details came out, so much for being a loved and valued daughter in law.

hayoc

hayoc wrote: »

Thank you. I am struggling. I have considered suicide on a number of occasions, just because the pain is so bad.

Please don't. There are people who genuinely love you and they need you here, and time will eat at that pain until it's not the centre of your life anymore. I'm sorry if that sounds trite, I know it does.

I hope you're getting good help with your health issues, and that one day very soon you wake up and feel a little less burdened. There are still lots of good people in the world, including yourself.

Immortal Starlight

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Anyone who sees things in black and white isn't mentally equipped to handle the complexities of the real world.
There can be a whole plethora of reasons why things happen and can happen and this zero tolerance bullsh1t approach is not at all clever

ShatterAlan wrote: »

And what in the case of a woman who has raised a bunch of kids and cared for her husband but is now no longer paid attention to. The husband doesn't really talk to her and certainly doesn't romance her. They haven't had sex in years. Other than that she has a family and security for her children.
Would you begrudge her meeting someone on occasion for a bit of intimacy?

I can assure you that I am fully mentally equipped to handle the complexities of the real world. When you have your partner of more than 20 years standing in front of you boasting how he’s pulled the wool over your eyes for years while he’s shagged everything with a heartbeat you come back and tell me how you dealt with it. You haven’t a clue what you are talking about.

No matter what spin you put on it cheating is cheap nasty and disgusting.

IAMAMORON

Is this not supposed to be a discussion?

I opened my heart out earlier and shared a previous indiscretion. I thought it might add some character or a hint of realism to the discussion.

Instead I was labelled a "scumbag" by 2 different posters?

What is their problem? They don't even have to forgive or forget me, ffs? I don't think it is fair for posters to be so erudite about the complexities of a relationship which they were not even involved in? A little too much hatefulness being shared... that is not healthy.

If someone got scorned by a partner this thread should not be providing them with the opportunity to malign another poster who has nothing to do with their issue? Someone posting such and such is hardly going to save your relationship, get real.

Good people do shight thing to better people every minute of the day, it happens. Relationships are good and bad, there is no set formula. The stark reality is that there is rarely a nice way a relationship ends, anyone who has been there will be able to recognise that.

Kylta

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Is this not supposed to be a discussion?

I opened my heart out earlier and shared a previous indiscretion. I thought it might add some character or a hint of realism to the discussion.

Instead I was labelled a "scumbag" by 2 different posters?

What is their problem? They don't even have to forgive or forget me, ffs? I don't think it is fair for posters to be so erudite about the complexities of a relationship which they were not even involved in? A little too much hatefulness being shared... that is not healthy.

If someone got scorned by a partner this thread should not be providing them with the opportunity to malign another poster who has nothing to do with their issue? Someone posting such and such is hardly going to save your relationship, get real.

Good people do shight thing to better people every minute of the day, it happens. Relationships are good and bad, there is no set formula. The stark reality is that there is rarely a nice way a relationship ends, anyone who has been there will be able to recognise that.

Well I for one don't think you're a scumbag, you opened up and were truthful and honest. I won't judge you because that unfortunately will be for you too do and maybe the person you cheated on. I know there are many things to be considered in regards to affairs, the why, when were, stuff. My belief is that if you're (no you Moron) going to cheat why not finish with the person.

IAMAMORON

Kylta wrote: »

Well I for one don't think you're a scumbag, you opened up and were truthful and honest. I won't judge you because that unfortunately will be for you too do and maybe the person you cheated on. I know there are many things to be considered in regards to affairs, the why, when were, stuff. My belief is that if you're (no you Moron) going to cheat why not finish with the person.

Oh I think you are finished at that point anyways, I mentioned that earlier in the thread.

But there are several different ways to let someone down. I am certainly not going to spoil my affair by dumping a partner who hasn't given me so much as a blow job since my birthday last December ... call me a scumbag all you like.

Timing is everything if you ask me.

Gruffalux

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Is this not supposed to be a discussion?

I opened my heart out earlier and shared a previous indiscretion. I thought it might add some character or a hint of realism to the discussion.

Instead I was labelled a "scumbag" by 2 different posters?

What is their problem? They don't even have to forgive or forget me, ffs? I don't think it is fair for posters to be so erudite about the complexities of a relationship which they were not even involved in? A little too much hatefulness being shared... that is not healthy.

If someone got scorned by a partner this thread should not be providing them with the opportunity to malign another poster who has nothing to do with their issue? Someone posting such and such is hardly going to save your relationship, get real.

Good people do shight thing to better people every minute of the day, it happens. Relationships are good and bad, there is no set formula. The stark reality is that there is rarely a nice way a relationship ends, anyone who has been there will be able to recognise that.

2 people calling you names is not bad. Most did not. Not enough to whine about anyway. For what it's worth I don't like the word scum, but it is thrown around such a lot though that I reckon people don't feel a heavy load is attached to it. There are lots of other regular words thrown about that I don't like all that much. Whatever.
What do you want? A clap on the back? You admitted it and had to include how great it was. Cool. That was the reward. Maybe read Hayoc's posts above to see how it probably made your ''now ex-girlfriend'' feel. For what it's worth you could have had fantastic sex and a really great time with your colleague after you told your long term partner and that would have been grand.

IAMAMORON

Gruffalux wrote: »

2 people calling you names is not bad. Most did not. Not enough to whine about anyway. For what it's worth I don't like the word scum, but it is thrown around such a lot though that I reckon people don't feel a heavy load is attached to it. There are lots of other regular words thrown about that I don't like all that much. Whatever.
What do you want? A clap on the back? You admitted it and had to include how great it was. Cool. That was the reward. Maybe read Hayoc's posts above to see how it probably made your ''now ex-girlfriend'' feel. For what it's worth you could have had fantastic sex and a really great time with your colleague after you told your long term partner and that would have been grand.

I am not sure you are getting my point?

To be frank I don't care what anyone calls me, my skin is thick enough.

My crank is actually with posters who found it necessary to get digs in on a complete stranger on an internet forum over something that has nothing to do with their lives? I mean it is a complete waste of time for starters. I don't get it?

Adultery happens, it is a fact of life. If someone is sleeping behind your back I am sorry for you, but don't give out to me over it?

Kylta

hayoc wrote: »

Thank you. I am struggling. I have considered suicide on a number of occasions, just because the pain is so bad. I have developed mental health and physical health issues from the trauma.

H is the thing with your Ex (I assume) a recent thing?
In regards to feeling down and suicidal after a long term relationship ends I can understand that. When relationships end they can become akin to a death. The person who loved you and cared for you is gone, your life becomes discombobulated, you thought pattern is fu¢ked. Your whole life is turned upside down. But in time you will see the light, time is a great healer and tomorrow is a new day. If you are having suicidal thoughts see a doctor, or family member or talk to somebody. Because the way your relationship ended and the way you were treated I would think if you got well and got over your Ex and started to live again. I'd think you would be showing your Ex that your a strong person (in others your basically saying fu©k you to him). If your break up was recently then you should try lick your wounds and slowly begin to live again. In regards to trusting people I would there are more good people out their than bad, and like all media outlets we only here about the bad in people. In time hopefully you will be posting about how you overcame the dark time in your life and offering advice to others. Chin up H

Gruffalux

IAMAMORON wrote: »

I am not sure you are getting my point?

To be frank I don't care what anyone calls me, my skin is thick enough.

My crank is actually with posters who found it necessary to get digs in on a complete stranger on an internet forum over something that has nothing to do with their lives? I mean it is a complete waste of time for starters. I don't get it?

Adultery happens, it is a fact of life. If someone is sleeping behind your back I am sorry for you, but don't give out to me over it?

Well, you obviously do care, because that is your gripe.

My husband sleeps behind my back, or sometimes I sleep behind his back, or sometimes I sleep on the couch if he snores too much sleeping there behind my back.

IAMAMORON

Gruffalux wrote: »

Well, you obviously do care, because that is your gripe.

My husband sleeps behind my back, or sometimes I sleep behind his back, or sometimes I sleep on the couch if he snores too much sleeping there behind my back.

Go for earplugs there?

You sound like a sweetheart hitting the couch like that, I hope you not being too nice?:p

Gruffalux

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Go for earplugs there?

You sound like a sweetheart hitting the couch like that, I hope you not being too nice?:p

I am rarely ever 'too nice' :pac: Makes me feel itchy.

IAMAMORON

Gruffalux wrote: »

I am rarely ever 'too nice' :pac: Makes me feel itchy.

Careful now, self praise is no praise.:)

You already told us your poor husband spends half the night snoring, is he working too hard?

JoChervil

Wibbs wrote: »

You'll note I put that in parentheses to qualify it. To illustrate no anger involved, merely description. I just love how people trot out the cut price pop psychology they've learned from daytime TV and reckon that's an argument. Indeed to take from the same cut price pop psychology handbook that's projection in a big way. Hell, when I tried to illustrate the pretty huge chasm between someone shouting a "nasty word" in anger and someone deliberately breaking the trust of a relationship I said I could call SM a whore in a post, but I couldn't go off and have an affair with her, the same SM came back with "I hope you won't. Why would you? That would be the action of somebody who has issues". AKA "I don't like/understand what someone is saying, therefore they have anger issues". You couldn't make it up.

It looks like you can't conduct discussion without devaluing the opponent, so I am out...

Immortal Starlight

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Is this not supposed to be a discussion?

I opened my heart out earlier and shared a previous indiscretion. I thought it might add some character or a hint of realism to the discussion.

Instead I was labelled a "scumbag" by 2 different posters?

What is their problem? They don't even have to forgive or forget me, ffs? I don't think it is fair for posters to be so erudite about the complexities of a relationship which they were not even involved in? A little too much hatefulness being shared... that is not healthy.

If someone got scorned by a partner this thread should not be providing them with the opportunity to malign another poster who has nothing to do with their issue? Someone posting such and such is hardly going to save your relationship, get real.

Good people do shight thing to better people every minute of the day, it happens. Relationships are good and bad, there is no set formula. The stark reality is that there is rarely a nice way a relationship ends, anyone who has been there will be able to recognise that.

If I am one of the posters you are accusing of calling you a scumbag after you shared your story I think you should get your facts straight. You shared your story after I’d made my comment that I think cheaters are scum. My comment in no way named you. It doesn’t matter if I’ve been cheated on or not I’ve always thought cheating in any walk of life is wrong and I doubt I’ll be changing my mind anytime soon. It’s up to you how you want to live your life it’s nothing to do with me and if you are really offended just put me on ignore.

IAMAMORON

Immortal Starlight wrote: »

If I am one of the posters you are accusing of calling you a scumbag after you shared your story I think you should get your facts straight. You shared your story after I’d made my comment that I think cheaters are scum. My comment in no way named you. It doesn’t matter if I’ve been cheated on or not I’ve always thought cheating in any walk of life is wrong and I doubt I’ll be changing my mind anytime soon. It’s up to you how you want to live your life it’s nothing to do with me and if you are really offended just put me on ignore.

It's complex Starlight.

I don't ignore people, everyones' opinion and voice is important.

Sexual indiscretion is rarely as simple as cheating. Every apple tastes a little bit different, even the same types of apple.

Immortal Starlight

IAMAMORON wrote: »

It's complex Starlight.

I don't ignore people, everyones' opinion and voice is important.

Sexual indiscretion is rarely as simple as cheating. Every apple tastes a little bit different, even the same types of apple.

That’s something we agree on I don’t like ignoring people either. I know you probably think I’m a weirdo but I’ve felt this way forever. I’ve been tempted a couple of times but never went through with it. It’s just not my thing really. One person at a time is all I can deal with.

ShatterAlan

Deleted User wrote: »

So women are responsible either way, poor men,lol.

I know...the vile Jezebels.

ShatterAlan

Sardonicat wrote: »

How 'intimate' are you in reality when you have to skulk around for quickies?.How cold snd cynical. That's just scratching an itch. When a marraige is that bad you speak up for your needs and try to fix it or call it and look for actual intimacy within a new relationship.

The very fact that you are cynically labelling it "skulking around for quickies" demonstrates that you are in no mood to empathise or try to see the other side. You and others label the cheater as vermin and the reasons be damned. Yes it's wrong. Many things in life are "wrong" but it doesn't make them incomprehensible.

And what if it's not sex or a quickie? What if the neglected and lonely mother and housewife slips away from her unappreciative and neglectful and maybe even condescending husband and meets up with a gentleman friend and she kicks off her shoes and snuggles up on the couch with a glass of wine with him and holds his hand as they watch a bit of telly and have a snog and don't even take their clothes off. She feels young and wanted and attractive again. Happy even for an hour or two. Would you call her scum and advise she get out of the marriage and simply "man up and move on"? And go where exactly? She middle aged. What's she going to do? Go backpacking and land some eligible bachelor and start all over again? That might work for millionairesses like Jane Fonda or Ivana Trump but it gets a little harder for Mary Doyle from Santry.



For years we were told by the Church and society in general that masturbation, sex before marriage, sex with birth control, homosexuality were "wrong". Yet people engaged in those illicit and shameful activities....yourself included I would imagine. Are you going to use your black and white approach to those activities with the trite "Masturbation is WRONG, dammit. If you've got an erection then pour some cold water on your cock. Don't go skulking around tugging yourself or you're hellbound. You're GAY? Don't go skulking around looking for intimacy with some other sodomite. Get into the chapel and pray to me made normal!"


Nobody is condoning infidelity. Nobody is promoting it. Celebrating it. Encouraging it. But some of us are a bit more understanding. If a child is unruly at school or withdrawn or can't quite grasp what you're teaching are you immediately going to cast your judgemnt that they are just bad or thick without examining possible causes and underlying factors? Maybe the child is terrified of his home life, maybe the parents are alcoholics and he hasn't had three decent square meals in the one day in ages. Maybe he's dyslexic or anaemic or is the victim of sexual abuse. It's very easy to just wash your hands of the reason behid certain behaviour and just go straight for the jugular.

ShatterAlan

Sardonicat wrote: »

How 'intimate' are you in reality when you have to skulk around for quickies?.How cold snd cynical. That's just scratching an itch. When a marraige is that bad you speak up for your needs and try to fix it or call it and look for actual intimacy within a new relationship.

Try the same quickfix approach when you're 50 and in a job the conditions of which aren't to your liking. You need the job and chances of something better coming along are remote. Let's see how expedient you are at just handing in your notice and saying "fcuk it, something will turn up!"

ShatterAlan

hayoc wrote: »

Thank you. I am struggling. I have considered suicide on a number of occasions, just because the pain is so bad. I have developed mental health and physical health issues from the trauma.

I am not in a good place yet, maybe some day. I knew him for 30 years, so it was basically like finding out I was married to a stranger. I never would have suspected it. Or thought him capable of it. Even if the prostitute he was using or his mistress had contacted me to tell me what was going on I would not have believed it. He used that trust against me.

His whole family ghosted me when the ugly details came out, so much for being a loved and valued daughter in law.

Easy for me to say but try not to dwell on the gaping wound left. You have a lot more to give. Slowly it will heal and you can rise again. Be around nice people. Lots of them. Try some yoga...doesn't matter how young, old, slim or plump you are. Yoga people are lovely and lifelong friends. Keep the radio on during your day listening to silly banter and quizzes and muppets calling in with their experience of the day or their "hilarious" little story as you do your thing.


Get to the hairdressers and get your favourite style done. Then put on your favourite outfit, shoes, jacket, etc and pop out even just for a coffee and a croissant at a cafe and let people notice you.

ShatterAlan

Immortal Starlight wrote: »

I can assure you that I am fully mentally equipped to handle the complexities of the real world. When you have your partner of more than 20 years standing in front of you boasting how he’s pulled the wool over your eyes for years while he’s shagged everything with a heartbeat you come back and tell me how you dealt with it. You haven’t a clue what you are talking about.

No matter what spin you put on it cheating is cheap nasty and disgusting.

Not all cheating is an obvious dick of a partner standing in front of you and bragging just to add insult to injury. I'm sorry about your bollocks of a partner and his sadistic need to hurt you as much as possible. But to think that THAT is the embodiment of all infidelity, what you went through, is indeed seeing things in black and white.



Put another way. Let's talk about theft. You find out that a mate has been habitually helping himself to the money in your wallet and over the course of several years had lifted maybe a grand or two. And then brags about it and calls you a sucker and a prick.


Specimen A.....a dick who should be put on his ass and pissed on.


Another friend strokes 20 for smokes when you are asleep or drunk. With the intent of making restoration but forgets and never does. Eventually a year later he cops on and says "Dude, I lifted money out of your wallet when you were out cold. Sorry. Here it is back.


Specimen B is in the same category as Specimen A? Both betrayed you. Both stole and before you launch into the "yeah but the money can be paid back, my heart can't" and yes the analogy is flawed, but as you said cheating is cheating no matter what form magnitude it encompasses. One my say that about theft and the betrayal of trust as well.


Your experience of infidelity not only involved betrayal, it involved cruelty and humiliation and a perverted joy as causing you grief. You can't use that yardstick to measure all those who engage in an affair.

ShatterAlan

Kylta wrote: »

Well I for one don't think you're a scumbag, you opened up and were truthful and honest. I won't judge you because that unfortunately will be for you too do and maybe the person you cheated on. I know there are many things to be considered in regards to affairs, the why, when were, stuff. My belief is that if you're (no you Moron) going to cheat why not finish with the person.

Again it's not that simple. When you're younger and hornier you may have a girlfiend who ticks 9 boxes out of 10 and that's a pretty good haul. Vice versa you might bat that average for her. Women like orgasms and lust just as much as men do.



An example on my part was when I was working abroad with a gf back in the US. I went out with a lad from work and his wife. The wife's sister was an absolute man-eater. Stunningly hot, all stockings and high-heels and boobs that would have needed page 3 AND page 4. I overheard the wife say to her sister "Don't shag him....he has a girlfriend". She replied "I don't give a shit, I'm having him now". And that right there was one of the biggest turnons for me, I have to say. The alpha-female, tarantula, boyfriend stealer.



We were on top of each other relentlessly for months until my girlfriend came over to visit for a week later that year and the homewrecker backed off for a while. I must have shagged my girlfriend more in that 6 days than in the previous year or 2. She was happy but also "wtf has gotten into you?".



Anyway....moving a little forward, both gf and magpie relationships ended. The cat came out of the bag. But I stayed in Europe and started a casual relationship with a woman from another country. In the meantime I was home in Ireland for Xmas and met up with an incorrigible woman who was a language professor in UCC whom I had met previously abroad. We met for pints and got chatting about sex and all that. Told her about the sordid affair and she said "Oh, I LOVE IT, how class!". Eventually she said "come on let's go home and have sex. I know you're attached and actually I've started seeing someone but sure we won't make a habit out of it."


And we did. Have sex I mean, not make a habit out of it.


Am I a scumbag? Are those women "whores"? Not to me but to many perhaps.



SO......yes as you can see I have tommed around

ShatterAlan

Gruffalux wrote: »

Well, you obviously do care, because that is your gripe.

My husband sleeps behind my back, or sometimes I sleep behind his back, or sometimes I sleep on the couch if he snores too much sleeping there behind my back.

I have a really big bed.