All Covid-19 measures are permanent, don't be a boiling frog!

King Mob

nannerbenahs wrote: »

They can´t fault him because he is just analysing official statistics, but in a thorough and expert manner.

But what about the experts who also quote the statistics who disagree with him?

Is he just smarter, or are the other experts all part of the conspiracy?

Dohnjoe claims that your expert isn't a medical doctor, but an engineer. Is this true? If so, what medical expertise does he have then?

mikekerry

King Mob wrote: »

But what about the experts who also quote the statistics who disagree with him?

Is he just smarter, or are the other experts all part of the conspiracy?

Dohnjoe claims that your expert isn't a medical doctor, but an engineer. Is this true? If so, what medical expertise does he have then?

You might use a similar analogy for bill gates but that doesn't seem to get in his way.
https://www.businessinsider.com/bill-gates-coronavirus-interview-vaccines-masks-and-us-leadership-2020-7?r=US&IR=T

King Mob

mikekerry wrote: »

You might use a similar analogy for bill gates but that doesn't seem to get in his way.

What are you talking about? I didn't use an analogy...
Nor is Bill Gates claiming to be a medical expert.

The youtube crank people are currently pointing at seems to only have his supposed expertise to support his claims.

Honestly I think you just wanted to have a swipe at Bill Gates because he's the conspiracy theorists boogeyman de jour.

Dohnjoe

mikekerry wrote: »

You might use a similar analogy for bill gates but that doesn't seem to get in his way.

Bill Gates is not a professional doctor, nor does he claim to be. He is a high profile person with a lot of money who allocates it for a range of philanthropy causes.

These Youtube quacks on the other hand are deliberately misconstruing and distorting information in order to present alternative narratives, which range from "Covid is as dangerous as seasonal flu" to "the powers-that-be are using covid to enslave us" - both of which are false

Dohnjoe

nannerbenahs wrote: »

He thankfuly sticks to the science and statistics

Not very well. I've provided a link to a sharp rebuttal to his claims.

nannerbenahs

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Not very well. I've provided a link to a sharp rebuttal to his claims.

There is a whole new industry of rebutting fact checkers hansomely paid for by the same oligarchs running the pandemic.
But ask yourself who will be checking these fact-checkers?

With regard to my comment earlier yesterday about the growing number of doctors and scientists worldwide calling for a stop to the extreme measures and a new scientific conversation, you might have a look here at the Great Barington Declaration.

https://gbdeclaration.org

Dohnjoe

nannerbenahs wrote: »

There is a whole new industry of rebutting fact checkers hansomely paid for by the same oligarchs running the pandemic.

You are claiming that "oligarchs" are running the pandemic, who exactly and how? what is their motive? and who are they paying to rebutt who?

With regard to my comment earlier yesterday about the growing number of doctors and scientists worldwide calling for a stop to the extreme measures and a new scientific conversation, you might have a look here at the Great Barington Declaration.

https://gbdeclaration.org

Since there are millions of real doctors, physicians, health professionals/practitioners in the world, I somehow doubt that website will make a dent. Also they need to up their signing process, anyone can sign up as a doctor, I just tested it out there.

It mentions "As immunity builds in the population", how is immunity building? people who have had Covid before are catching it again. That's a pretty massive error to make.

Dohnjoe

If 1,000 scientists state X and 10 state Y. The scientific consensus is X. Why is this the only forum I've ever come across where this has to be a) repeatedly explained and b) people constantly and endlessly think Y is the correct answer

brianhere

That's an interesting way of looking at it, you do realise that that declaration that you are referring to, and which condemns this nonsense, is signed by 26,599 Medical practitioners and 9,934 scientists.

King Mob

brianhere wrote: »

That's an interesting way of looking at it, you do realise that that declaration that you are referring to, and which condemns this nonsense, is signed by 26,599 Medical practitioners and 9,934 scientists.

Do you have a source for this claim?

Also if this is accurate, how where that many signatories all verified?
What was to prevent people from signing that petition without actually being a "medical practitioner"?

brianhere

It's all there at the site already posted: https://gbdeclaration.org/view-signatures/ .

brianhere

brianhere wrote: »

It's all there at the site already posted: https://gbdeclaration.org/view-signatures/ .

A quick read of the declaration reveals

"COVID-19 is less dangerous than many other harms, including influenza."

That's simply not true. You'd think the doctor from harvard would be aware of that.

Dohnjoe

brianhere wrote: »

That's an interesting way of looking at it, you do realise that that declaration that you are referring to, and which condemns this nonsense, is signed by 26,599 Medical practitioners and 9,934 scientists.

There are an estimated 10 - 15 million doctors in the world. There is a far higher total amount medical practitioners and scientists. So those signees (if legit, remember I "signed up" as a doctor) represent a tiny drop in the ocean. Again demonstrating my point about conspiracy theorists and deniers and their grasp of what consensus actually is.

Dohnjoe

Deleted User wrote: »

A quick read of the declaration reveals

"COVID-19 is less dangerous than many other harms, including influenza."

That's simply not true. You'd think the doctor from harvard would be aware of that.

In fairness, and in context, it seems to be referring to children for that specific point. The piece isn't that extreme, it's more a disagreement over lockdowns, and to be honest seems very out of date now considering the recent huge surge, especially in Europe. Even more worrying is about the immunity part - within the last weeks we've seen cases of people who've had Covid contracting it again, which makes that portion of the statement also look redundant.

As for why a poster who believes that Covid-19 is all part of a plan to install Communism across the world (no really) has seized on it, I don't know, but yet again it's very telling how individuals with zany and contradictory beliefs hijack the same source material.

As for the number of "signees", keep in mind there are over 3,000 architects and engineers who maintain 9/11 was an inside job...

King Mob

brianhere wrote: »

It's all there at the site already posted: https://gbdeclaration.org/view-signatures/ .

Cool.
And how did they and you verify these numbers?
The site does not explain how this was done.

What about the majority of doctors, experts and organisations that don't agree with this statement?
Are they all just bad at their jobs?
Are they just part of a massive global conspiracy?

mikekerry

Dohnjoe wrote: »

There are an estimated 10 - 15 million doctors in the world. There is a far higher total amount medical practitioners and scientists. So those signees (if legit, remember I "signed up" as a doctor) represent a tiny drop in the ocean. Again demonstrating my point about conspiracy theorists and deniers and their grasp of what consensus actually is.

But the way you are looking is very simplistic and doesn't account for a number of other factors.
Say if there x amount of doctors there are plenty of reasons many of these won't have signed the treaty
1) They may not have heard of it - do you think every practitioners in the world has heard of this?
2) If they agreed with it they still may not sign it as can be seen from what happened a couple of doctors here they get fired for not agreeing with the "party line"
3) They may agree with it but still may not sign it most people are not proactive and just wouldn't be bothered to sign a declaration.
4) And some would disagree with the declaration and not sign so you can't just say that there is x amount of practitioners and only y signed it.
Is there a consensus to to see where all the practitioners agree with these lock downs?
I don't see that anywhere?

nannerbenahs

King Mob wrote: »

Cool.
And how did they and you verify these numbers?
The site does not explain how this was done.

What about the majority of doctors, experts and organisations that don't agree with this statement?
Are they all just bad at their jobs?
Are they just part of a massive global conspiracy?

If someone had predicted the current madness last february, there´s no doubt that person would have been labelled by you as a conspiracy nut.
Who could have imagined even in financial terms for instance that all this destruction of the world economy 28 trillion dollars (that´s an unimaginable 28million million) by the latest IMF estimates, would take place for a virus which had roughly the same impact as a seasonal flu and followed the same gompertz curve as all the others. 2018 actually saw more deaths in the first five months of that year than 2020 in Ireland and Sweden.
By your nonconspiracy logic, it makes perfect sense to destroy the world financially (at least for the 99%) with the cost of each death now climbing towards 19 million euro.
The generosity of our kind political leaders has certainly increase immeasurably. The protocalls for spending on health have been thrown out the window. A child diagnosed with JIA autoimmune disease (1000approx) in Ireland will wait at least a year to see our ONE specialist.
But hey ..at the height of the covid epidemic in Ireland..from our own statistics..19 out of 20 people who died ie..95% were already too old and sick to even be offered ICU, ventillators etc.. That is a fact. There was a very weak flu season in 2019 and many older people had an extension to their lives by not getting one of the usual winter respiratory infections which typically speed up the dying process.
What kind of madness was it to introduce masks AfTER the virus had abated?
I would suggest not madness but a deliberate and clever way to leave no exit strategy. I mean if they had been introduced at the beginning, then people would have wanted them removed after the worst was over....

King Mob

nannerbenahs wrote: »

If someone had predicted the current madness last february, there´s no doubt that person would have been labelled by you as a conspiracy nut.....

Sorry, you seem to have missed my questions. Could you go back and address them please?

They are in the post you quoted in case you've a problem finding them again.

Dohnjoe

mikekerry wrote: »

But the way you are looking is very simplistic and doesn't account for a number of other factors.

There is currently a huge resurgence in cases, and as a result governments are being advised to re-introduce lockdown measures to stop e.g. hospitals and health systems from being overwhelmed

You think now would be a good time to remove lockdown measures like the internet petition suggests?

And if yes, why?

mikekerry

Dohnjoe wrote: »

There is currently a huge resurgence in cases, and as a result governments are being advised to re-introduce lockdown measures to stop e.g. hospitals and health systems from being overwhelmed

You think now would be a good time to remove lockdown measures like the internet petition suggests?

And if yes, why?

Can you address my points first please.
thanks

Dohnjoe

mikekerry wrote: »

Can you address my points first please.
thanks

1) They may not have heard of it - do you think every practitioners in the world has heard of this?

I agree, I'm sure there are plenty who haven't heard of it, which ultimately demonstrates how pointless it is.

Is there an option to disagree with it? No, so likewise how do you know there aren't hundreds of thousands or millions who disagree with it?

Finally, it can be filled out by anyone claiming to be a doctor, which only adds to the redundancy

2) If they agreed with it they still may not sign it as can be seen from what happened a couple of doctors here they get fired for not agreeing with the "party line"

Their names are on the signatures list, how many have been fired?

3) They may agree with it but still may not sign it most people are not proactive and just wouldn't be bothered to sign a declaration.

See point 1.

4) And some would disagree with the declaration and not sign so you can't just say that there is x amount of practitioners and only y signed it.
Is there a consensus to to see where all the practitioners agree with these lock downs?

Yes. Health departments and national and international (WHO) bodies are advising governments. There isn't just national consensus, there is international consensus on the issue. In many cases politicians have demonstrated they are more against lockdowns than the medical experts advising them

To repeat my earlier questions:

"here is currently a huge resurgence in cases, and as a result governments are being advised to re-introduce lockdown measures to stop e.g. hospitals and health systems from being overwhelmed

You think now would be a good time to remove lockdown measures like the internet petition suggests?

And if yes, why?"

nannerbenahs

What we are seeing is a casedemic. 20 times more PCR tests are being carried out now than at the height of the epidemic.
UK have proposed what they call operation moonshot for next year, a programme which will involve millions of tests and retests every week.
Kary Mullis the nobel prize winning inventor of the PCR, unfortunately died last year, but he adamantly stated on the record for many years that his test was totally unsuitable for diagnosing viruses. Fauci used PCR for AIDS testing too, when pushing big pharma´s lethal cocktail of Aids drugs, much to the annoyance of Mullis.
Essentially this test is for scientific research only and looks for (difficult to see) viral fragments through a process of gradual magnification through multiplication. 35 times was the cut off for Mullis, but typically now many tests are running 40 -45 and higher to get the desired number of positives. Since most colds are of the corona virus family, many so called positives can be related to a miniscule dead viral fragment from a past infection.
This is the first ever respiratory illness you have to be told you have? Perfectly healthy people are being told they are contageous. This is actually vile propaganda, as is the pushing of masks even on children and sick people during the summer when they should be enjoying fresh air and normal life. It´s all designed to prey on the minds of simple people, stimulating their primal fear of ´´contagion´´ and priming us all for a the future envisaged by Klaus Schwab of World Economic Forum fame and his ´´stakeholder capitalist´´ cabal.
People have no idea how much power these people have. Their extreme wealth becomes boring without power. One of our most successful companies Ryan air is just about surviving because it has 3 billion for the rainy day, but Bill Gates through his philantrophy has moved from 50 to 100 billion since 2010 and since the onset of covidmania, Bezos of Amazon has doubled his wealth from 100-200 billion.
The other thing people don´t realise is that in the minds of this self-styled elite we (the 99%) are just herd animals, a new form of investment..human capital to be exploited for profit just like any other resource. But first we need to be subdued!!
Impoverished, hungry...needy.... Covid has turbo-charged their agenda

https://off-guardian.org/2020/10/12/klaus-schwab-his-great-fascist-reset/

People forget that in 2009 as the swine flu abated the same technique was tried to push the idea of a second wave by excessive testing. Countries lost billions around the world as they were obliged to buy useless and dangerous vaccines, most of which had to be destroyed after serious casualities from vaccine poisoning (over 700 in Europe--again down the memory hole with that one) began to derail their plans.
The media wants us to forget all this stuff of course and many previous disasters in the 50s and 60s flu epidemics as the same criminal actors, companies and their acolytes are ´´calling the shots ´´ again with Covid.
The crucial thing to look at is not these dubious case numbers, but ´´actual sickness and death´´.. these numbers have flatlined over the summer, exactly as they did in Sweden, one of the few countries that acted rationally throughout.

The present ´´slight´´ increase in actual ilness and death is to be expected and is in line with al the graphs for respiratory illnesses of other years as we move into winter.

Many of the best and most respected scientists predicted all of this exactly from the start, but their voices were silenced by mainstream media who insisted on portraying covid as our armageddon.

King Mob

nannerbenahs wrote: »

People forget that in 2009 as the swine flu

Yup. I remember when the swine flu was around and you guys were claiming that it was going to be the end of democracy etc then too.

Tea drinker

King Mob wrote: »

Yup. I remember when the swine flu was around and you guys were claiming that it was going to be the end of democracy etc then too.

I don't remember that, but I'll take your word for it. That being said, democracy has declined a lot since then and I think the control, tracking measures etc are todays version of the warrantless surveillance that became norm after the significant event of that time, 2001. Each significant event is used and for most people they don't really notice it. For example many people argued(in support of counter terrorism surveillance) if you don't have anything to hide why do you mind the Gov surveillance?
Covid flu is getting the same treatment, it's an opportunity.

nannerbenahs

Another one for the memory hole I suppose.

https://www.thejournal.ie/government-official-defends-indemnity-for-swine-flue-vaccine-makers-423613-Apr2012/

mikekerry

Dohnjoe wrote: »

I agree, I'm sure there are plenty who haven't heard of it, which ultimately demonstrates how pointless it is.

So because many people haven't heard of it that makes it pointless?
Seriously that makes no sense.
There are more and more people hearing about this every day.
Do you not think there can even be debates about the way things are being done? because what is being done at the moment is most definitely not working.

Is there an option to disagree with it?

No, so likewise how do you know there aren't hundreds of thousands or millions who disagree with it?

There could be millions that disagree with it but impossible to know there could be just as many agreeing with it neither of these things is something anyone can know.

Finally, it can be filled out by anyone claiming to be a doctor, which only adds to the redundancy

Possibly but you will always get a certain percentage of fruitcakes doing this. That's not a reason to discount it.

Their names are on the signatures list, how many have been fired?




See point 1.



Yes. Health departments and national and international (WHO) bodies are advising governments. There isn't just national consensus, there is international consensus on the issue. In many cases politicians have demonstrated they are more against lockdowns than the medical experts advising them

To repeat my earlier questions:

"here is currently a huge resurgence in cases, and as a result governments are being advised to re-introduce lockdown measures to stop e.g. hospitals and health systems from being overwhelmed

You think now would be a good time to remove lockdown measures like the internet petition suggests?

Yes.

And if yes, why?"

You must realise the effects of the lockdowns are catastrophic between suicides, depression, job losses, diseases not getting treated .
Do you agree or disagree?
The effects of this are going to be way above any covid deaths.
Do you suggest we keep doing what we are doing till there is a vaccine?
Lockdown, open up a bit, lockdown again. There will be nothing left to open up.
Do you think from speaking to people they can take much more of these lockdowns?
Again there are reports on the radio today ( again leaked reports but that's another story) that we are going into lockdown for a number of weeks.
This has been going on what now, around 8 months, people just want some normality back now.
From personal experience pretty much everyone I've been speaking to has had enough and would rather take their chances and get some semblance of their old lives back ( While obviously continuing sanitising, mask wearing etc).

Dohnjoe

mikekerry wrote: »

You must

I addressed your questions, please address mine.

King Mob

Tea drinker wrote: »

I don't remember that, but I'll take your word for it. That being said, democracy has declined a lot since then and I think the control, tracking measures etc .

During swine flu you guys were claiming that there would be forced vaccinations and that anyone who didn't get the vaccination would be put in camps.

It's bizarre you are claiming that conspiracy theorists were now correct.

Dohnjoe

Tea drinker wrote: »

That being said, democracy has declined a lot since

Interesting personal opinion, not something I've noticed at all, please explain how democracy has "declined" in Ireland since 2001..

mikekerry

Dohnjoe wrote: »

I addressed your questions, please address mine.

I did .See me post.
thanks

Dohnjoe

mikekerry wrote: »

You must realise the effects of the lockdowns are catastrophic between suicides, depression, job losses, diseases not getting treated .
Do you agree or disagree?

Of course its catastrophic. However, it's far more catastrophic if healthcare services become overwhelmed. That's when exponentially more people start dying, treatment is stopped, people start dying in their homes, literally on hospital steps, a higher number of doctors and critical staff will start becoming infected/incapacitated

Countries can borrow money and prop up the economy, they can't replace dead people because there was a need to socialise in pubs/restaurants.

nthclare

I'm tired of the bull**** too, there's all kinds of conspiracy theories going around.
Our overlords have done nothing to quell people's anxiety or fears.

There's no glimmer of hope for people who are likely to be in perpetual debts during this.

There's going to have to be a financial reset button and forgiveness.

You know all those billionaires, they're not really worth billions, it's definitely not billions in cash.
It's all projected nonsense, and just letters and figures manipulated to boost ratings and give someone validation.

Everyones debts should be slashed by a nice percentage, because they won't be able to pay it back.
No way.

People can go down the negative route and its not their fault.

But that 34 year old guy down the road driving his 191 BMW 5 series is on 300 a week now , and his 4 bed detached house also has to be paid.

300 euros a week.

Janet driving the brand 2020 mini Cooper and had a good yoga and mindfulness business is on the 300 and her deluxe apartment in overlooking Shandon bells in Cork needs to be paid for...

That family of 6 who's mum's a teacher and dad's working in the County Council pushing a pen are OK for now.

No doubt the teachers will be paid whether there's a lockdow or not.
Dad can work from home too.

That guy who's parents left him the house in Liscannor and he's working in a shop in the Town down the road, has around 427 a week after deductions is more sufficient now than Fiacra who was on 97k a year.

Now Fiacra the geek is wondering how da hell he's going to hold onto Michelle who has her eye on Mick.
Mick looks like Aidan Quinn he's charming and a quiet man who has the job in Supervalue and that beautiful house overlooking Liscannor Bay...
Healthy genes, probably bedded a lot of beautiful women in his time because he had that heir of mystery about him.

While Fiacra is just a damp squib....

Strange things done in the midnight Sun

Dohnjoe

nthclare wrote: »

I'm tired of the bull**** too, there's all kinds of conspiracy theories going around.
Our overlords have done nothing to quell people's anxiety or fears.

Right, and what's your solution?

nthclare

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Right, and what's your solution?

I'm unqualified to have any solution, I don't have the powers or intelligence to quantify a financial solution or a remedy to quell the virus.

As for metal health, some of us were unlucky or lucky, whatever way you want to look at it.
I've been through a lot of stress and anxiety in the past and had my own burdens to face.
And being honest with you I am coping very well.

But for the people who aren't coping I empathise and can see and hear the fear of financial insecurity, the fear of losing loved one's and dying alone...
There has to be something to give people moral support, and not striking the fear of pestilence and death into people's heads.

What's your solution?

Tea drinker

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Interesting personal opinion, not something I've noticed at all, please explain how democracy has "declined" in Ireland since 2001..

Declined worldwide per my post, per Washington post and many other mainstream articles. That is their opinion. Your theory is that maybe Ireland is unique?

Dohnjoe

nthclare wrote: »

I'm unqualified to have any solution, I don't have the powers or intelligence to quantify a financial solution or a remedy to quell the virus.

What's your solution?

Good reply. As for my solution; listen to the consensus of experts who do know. If certain governments had paid more attention to the warnings of their health experts, scientists, virologists, etc it's unlikely this second wave would be as severe as it is now.

Dohnjoe

Tea drinker wrote: »

Declined worldwide per my post, per Washington post and many other mainstream articles. That is their opinion. Your theory is that maybe Ireland is unique?

This is your theory.

You claim that democracy has "declined a lot" worldwide. Worldwide includes Ireland. Please provide examples of how "democracy has declined" in Ireland, if not here, then where in Europe?

Provide systematic examples, no tenuous isolated cases please.

brianhere

When people say that the scientific concensus is to destroy society, the economy, cultural life etc in this way they really mean the few scientists who are feted by the political/media establishment. Most of the actual scientists are saying the opposite, like this guy:

Dr. Jim Meehan explains why masks don’t work.
“I'm a surgeon that has performed over 10,000 surgical procedures wearing a surgical mask. However, that fact alone doesn't really qualify me as an expert on the matter. More importantly, I am a former editor of a medical journal. I know how to read the medical literature, distinguish good science from bad, and fact from fiction. Believe me, the medical literature is filled with bad fiction masquerading as medical science. It is very easy to be deceived by bad science.
Since the beginning of the pandemic I've read hundreds of studies on the science of medical masks. Based on extensive review and analysis, there is no question in my mind that healthy people should not be wearing surgical or cloth masks. Nor should we be recommending universal masking of all members of the population. That recommendation is not supported by the highest level scientific evidence.

First, let's be clear. The premise that surgeon's wearing masks serves as evidence that "masks must work to prevent viral transmission" is a logical fallacy that I would classify as an argument of false equivalence, or comparing "apples to oranges."
Although surgeons do wear masks to prevent their respiratory droplets from contaminating the surgical field and the exposed internal tissues of our surgical patients, that is about as far as the analogy extends. Obviously, surgeons cannot "socially distance" from their surgical patients (unless we use robotic surgical devices, in which case, I would definitely not wear a mask).
Surgical and cloth masks do nothing to prevent viral transmission. We should all realize by now that face masks have never been shown to prevent or protect against viral transmission. Which is exactly why they have never been recommended for use during the seasonal flu outbreak, epidemics, or previous pandemics.

The failure of the scientific literature to support medical masks for influenza and all other viruses, is also why Fauci, the US Surgeon General, the CDC, WHO, and pretty much every infectious disease expert on the planet stated that wearing masks won't prevent transmission of SARS CoV-2. Although the public health "authorities" flipped, flopped, and later changed their recommendations, the science did not change, nor did new science appear that supported the wearing of masks in public. In fact, the most recent systemic analysis once again confirms that masks are ineffective in preventing the transmission of viruses like CoVID-19.
If a surgeon were sick, especially with a viral infection, they would not perform surgery as they know the virus would NOT be stopped by their surgical mask.

Another area of "false equivalence" has to do with the environment in which the masks are worn. The environments in which surgeon's wear masks minimize the adverse effects surgical masks on their wearers.
Unlike the public wearing masks in the community, surgeon's work in sterile surgical suites equipped with heavy duty air exchange systems that maintain positive pressures, exchange and filter the room air at a very high level, and increase the oxygen content of the room air. These conditions limit the negative effects of masks on the surgeon and operating room staff. And yet despite these extreme climate control conditions, clinically studies demonstrate the negative effects (lowering arterial oxygen and carbon dioxide re-breathing) of surgical masks on surgeon physiology and performance.
Surgeon's and operating room personnel are well trained, experienced, and meticulous about maintaining sterility. We only wear fresh sterile masks. We don the mask in a sterile fashion. We wear the mask for short periods of time and change it out at the first signs of the excessive moisture build up that we know degrades mask effectiveness and increases their negative effects.
Surgeon's NEVER re-use surgical masks, nor do we ever wear cloth masks.”
Jim Meehan, MD
7/22/2020

Dohnjoe

brianhere wrote: »

When people say that the scientific concensus is to destroy society, the economy, cultural life etc in this way they really mean the few scientists who are feted by the political/media establishment. Most of the actual scientists are saying the opposite, like this guy:

Dr. Jim Meehan explains why masks don’t work.
“I'm a surgeon that has performed over 10,000 surgical procedures wearing a surgical mask. However, that fact alone doesn't really qualify me as an expert on the matter. More importantly, I am a former editor of a medical journal. I know how to read the medical literature, distinguish good science from bad, and fact from fiction. Believe me, the medical literature is filled with bad fiction masquerading as medical science. It is very easy to be deceived by bad science.
Since the beginning of the pandemic I've read hundreds of studies on the science of medical masks. Based on extensive review and analysis, there is no question in my mind that healthy people should not be wearing surgical or cloth masks. Nor should we be recommending universal masking of all members of the population. That recommendation is not supported by the highest level scientific evidence.

First, let's be clear. The premise that surgeon's wearing masks serves as evidence that "masks must work to prevent viral transmission" is a logical fallacy that I would classify as an argument of false equivalence, or comparing "apples to oranges."
Although surgeons do wear masks to prevent their respiratory droplets from contaminating the surgical field and the exposed internal tissues of our surgical patients, that is about as far as the analogy extends. Obviously, surgeons cannot "socially distance" from their surgical patients (unless we use robotic surgical devices, in which case, I would definitely not wear a mask).
Surgical and cloth masks do nothing to prevent viral transmission. We should all realize by now that face masks have never been shown to prevent or protect against viral transmission. Which is exactly why they have never been recommended for use during the seasonal flu outbreak, epidemics, or previous pandemics.

The failure of the scientific literature to support medical masks for influenza and all other viruses, is also why Fauci, the US Surgeon General, the CDC, WHO, and pretty much every infectious disease expert on the planet stated that wearing masks won't prevent transmission of SARS CoV-2. Although the public health "authorities" flipped, flopped, and later changed their recommendations, the science did not change, nor did new science appear that supported the wearing of masks in public. In fact, the most recent systemic analysis once again confirms that masks are ineffective in preventing the transmission of viruses like CoVID-19.
If a surgeon were sick, especially with a viral infection, they would not perform surgery as they know the virus would NOT be stopped by their surgical mask.

Another area of "false equivalence" has to do with the environment in which the masks are worn. The environments in which surgeon's wear masks minimize the adverse effects surgical masks on their wearers.
Unlike the public wearing masks in the community, surgeon's work in sterile surgical suites equipped with heavy duty air exchange systems that maintain positive pressures, exchange and filter the room air at a very high level, and increase the oxygen content of the room air. These conditions limit the negative effects of masks on the surgeon and operating room staff. And yet despite these extreme climate control conditions, clinically studies demonstrate the negative effects (lowering arterial oxygen and carbon dioxide re-breathing) of surgical masks on surgeon physiology and performance.
Surgeon's and operating room personnel are well trained, experienced, and meticulous about maintaining sterility. We only wear fresh sterile masks. We don the mask in a sterile fashion. We wear the mask for short periods of time and change it out at the first signs of the excessive moisture build up that we know degrades mask effectiveness and increases their negative effects.
Surgeon's NEVER re-use surgical masks, nor do we ever wear cloth masks.”
Jim Meehan, MD
7/22/2020

He's an anti-vax quack
https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/jim-meehan-anti-vaccine-rant-examining-claims/

brianhere

"He's an anti-vax quack"

Of course he is going to be slandered as a 'quack' as soon as he opposed the government line here, such are the days we live in and so reminiscent of totalitarian days of old.

Anyway its a good summary of the medical literature on masks, you can see a few examples here:
https://jamesfetzer.org/2020/08/studies-of-surgical-masks-efficacy-masks-are-useless-in-preventing-the-spread-of-disease/ .

nannerbenahs

Dohnjoe wrote: »

He's an anti-vax quack
https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/jim-meehan-anti-vaccine-rant-examining-claims/

Tell that to the mothers of the children destroyed by big pharma´s untested vaccine for swine flu, bought up frontwith our taxpayers money by the Irish Government, a decision subsequently defended by the self same (and our current) health tzar Dr Holohan


https://www.thejournal.ie/government...23613-Apr2012/

nannerbenahs

PLEASE EVERYONE TAKE SOME TIME AND WATCH THIS
and learn about the World Economic Forum´s pkan for the
GREAT RESET

https://odysee.com/@corbettreport:0/thegreatreset:7

Dohnjoe

brianhere wrote: »

"He's an anti-vax quack"

He is. There are individual doctors and physicians who are (incredibly) against vaccines. Another experienced doctor linked in a thread on this forum claims Covid 19 is a ruse to "enslave" people. These individuals are not immune from being loons.

Anyway its a good summary of the medical literature on masks, you can see a few examples here:
https://jamesfetzer.org/2020/08/studies-of-surgical-masks-efficacy-masks-are-useless-in-preventing-the-spread-of-disease/ .

No it's not a good summary, it's a cherry-picked bunch of hodge-podge reports on a very broad variety of subjects relating to masks in all sorts of circumstances. On an insane conspiracy website.

Covid-19 travels on droplets (its even suspected to travel in finer aerosols), so when you cough or sneeze you spread these droplets, which is why we wear masks. Does it stop Covid 19 fully? No. Does it mitigate it? Yes.

The amount of continual disinformation and ignorance on this forum never ceases to amaze.

nannerbenahs

Here is a comment from the journal.ie from 2013 vis a vis the swine flu vaccine bought and promoted by Holohan and co


Bridget Dolan-Sullivan

Jan 13th 2013, 7:17 PM

My son got the vaccine through the school, full disclosure as to side effects was not given, they asked if you or your child ever had a reaction to eggs, formaldehyde,gentamycin, thiomersal?> Have you/your child ever had Guillian Barre Syndrome. Not for nothing – why do they switch from eggs to clinical words. If you never had any of these things before – how would you know if you had a reaction/ How many people go out there, with fancy names to test what they are allergic to. Why was pandemrix withdrawn on other markets and allowed here. We are undergoing investigations at our own costs, going without a lot, since my son had a reaction, and we went through the HSE and the person in temple street, said it was in our heads and that we needed to see a physcologist, we went to a sleep specialist, privately, – we don’t have insurance or a medical card, and the first night – the study had to be cut short as my son had severe obstructive apnea – That is not in the family, and it wasn’t present before. he still has shakes, shudders, aches, pains, tiredness. He clawed through 3 mattresses in his sleep, and doesn’t remember, a hole in the cement wall down the block – in his sleep. I have to get up every 2 hours to make sure he keeps the mask on – as a couple of times – he took it off and didn’t remember. I’ve put a video on youtube, . We have contacted everyone we can think of – and getting nowhere – the irish government don’t want to know. The Health Service don’t want to know. I have applied for DCA – to help fund costs – we got turned down, applying for everything to help with the costs – and getting nowhere. GSK, Irish Goverment don’t give a damn about the people and the kids they hurt.

4068ac1elhodqr

Swine Flu wasn't even all that bad, know plenty of folks that had it (not even youngsters), it was just like any other flu before that (InfA/B).
As with any flu if you're one of the: obese, over 65, heavy smoker/drinker, junk food (DT2) eaters, then of course risks will always exist in that case.

Timberrrrrrrr

nannerbenahs wrote: »

PLEASE EVERYONE TAKE SOME TIME AND WATCH THIS
and learn about the World Economic Forum´s pkan for the
GREAT RESET

https://odysee.com/@corbettreport:0/thegreatreset:7

Its an hour and 11 minutes long, why don't you give us a rundown of what is said. The importance parts that we should listen to?

nannerbenahs

The typical flu is a lot nastier than Covid 19. Why? Because It always attacks and kills children and pregnant women.
Our pandemic death toll was 99% confined to very aged and already very sick people.
Don´t expect to see this fact highlighted by Pat Kenny, RTE, IT or in any Irish mainstream media outlet.
Central statistics show that 95% (that´s 19 out of 20) deaths at the height of this pandemic (one that is now over by the way, though we are not allowed to know it) were already so old and weak and sick with other health problems that it was not even considered ethical to prolong their suffering by bringing them to hospital ICU and put them on a ventilator. This is Fact!!
If you take that huge number of aged and already at death´s door people out of our pandemic death figures, there is very little left to see..the spike in the March April curve disappears entirely, and what is left is just hype and propaganda to further an agenda which has NOTHING to do with health!!

Dohnjoe

nannerbenahs wrote: »

The typical flu is a lot nastier than Covid 19.

No. Covid-19 is more severe
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-54463511

Also it wasn't well known to science, we don't have a vaccine, and it has been threatening to swamp national health infrastructure.

Dohnjoe

nannerbenahs wrote: »

what is left is just hype and propaganda to further an agenda which has NOTHING to do with health!!

What agenda? by who? and why?

Explain in terms of e.g. Ireland and Europe, thanks

eleventh

nannerbenahs wrote: »

..., and what is left is just hype and propaganda to further an agenda which has NOTHING to do with health!!

and a very brainwashed / dumbed down populace without whom none of it could have happened - those who just go along with the most irrational ideas because some suit-wearing 'authority figure', reading a cringey speech - containing deliberate emotional trigger points - tells them to. They didn't even have to enforce it really. I thought there might be some kind of resistance, but little or nothing. Across the board compliance.