Health Passport Ireland

8kczg9v0swrydm

I don't think this is a good idea for the following reasons:

1) For a national pandemic where the current hospitalization rate hovers around the 40 people mark, this is unduly excessive. The government gets to keep all this data on you and intrude into your life in a massive way. For what?

2) The video claims that no private info will be shared. This can change at the drop of a dime.

3) What if a person refused to get tested or vaccinated? The old shtick of 'if you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to fear' is a favorite totalitarian trick. Does this not have a whiff of the Chinese social credit system to it? I think that the video carries a thinly veiled message that if you do not show 'green' on your app, your employment/travel/recreation will be affected.

4) Where will this stop? It is easy to foresee that such technology can easily be updated with, to go back to my earlier point, a Chinese style social credit system. 'Crossed on the red light? Sorry, will just dock 50 quid from your account.'

I think we should resist this while we still have the chance.

iamstop

I think is a good few steps away from the social credit system. It seems to be one of those things, in the right hands it can be very powerful and useful and helpful.
In the wrong hands it could be very destructive.

TRANQUILLO

Im no anti vaxxer or anti masker per se but they can **** off with themselves (all due respect)

biko

"In order to protect you I just need a small sample of your DNA.
This DNA will be the property of the State and its affiliates to do sell or handle as we please.
Probably share with your insurance company that will increase your premium when it's discovered you have an inherited genetic defect.

But it's all for your own good. You shouldn't smoke anyway.."

RobbingBandit

Let me see your papers type situation

GDPR should prevent anything thing like these being proposed

WrenBoy

It could have been devised to genuinely help and prevent Covid spread but nah, too intrusive, too many ways this can morph into something very unseemly down the line.
Insurance companies will love this, will this be done away with after the Covid Pandemic (fingers crossed) or will it be a case of "sure. look it works so well we might as well keep it" ?
Then it'll be you cant book a hotel without using it, public transport or attend public functions without using the app to prove you wont transmit any illness to the larger public, now your system account has a nice little timeline of where you go and how you spend your time.

Gregor Samsa

Aside from the privacy objections (some of which can be mitigated against, some of which maybe not), given that you could theoretically contract Covid 19 a minute after testing negative, I don't see the point. All it tells anyone is your status in the past, not the present and certainly not the future.

Sir Oxman

I don't like it at all.
The points against raised above cover my current feelings about this.

4068ac1elhodqr

The presenting and relentless scanning of QRCodes (as shown the video) isn't really that far off from China's SCSystem.

Sure it may just be airports and public buildings to begin with, but in China they're commonplace (taxis, parks, services).
https://www.ft.com/content/eee43c3e-8f7c-11ea-9b25-c36e3584cda8
Phone-based system controls entry and exit to neighbourhoods and taxi cabs

The FT calls it 'techno-authoritarian system'.
Even where restrictions are lifted in China, their (similar) health colour code system lingers on.

Spanish Eyes

And so it starts.... lol.

Anyway it is not mandatory is it? I certainly wouldn't sign up for any more now. Unless it would prevent me from going about my daily life, ie checks at every junction lol.

It is not mandatory to sign up for the Covid Tracker App is it? No.

I just watched the video. Is it HSE/Government backed? I know it mentions a company that helped develop it. It looks purely elective so I don't see the issue?

4068ac1elhodqr

Deleted User wrote: »

I just watched the video. Is it HSE/Government backed? I know it mentions a company that helped develop it. It looks purely elective so I don't see the issue?

It's from a company that 'only' works with governments and heads of state around the world (yes: gov backed).

The Chinese QRCode service access points likely only started off as optional, but are now fundemental to their new growing post-pandemic smart cities. The only constant would be the need for a smartphone (there is maybe a solution for that also, further down the line).

To give the Chinese credit, their particular style and efficiency (and +7% 2020 GDP) is likely now seen as highly desirable and potentially replicable from the Western world, compared to the polar opposite in the years just before COVID.

4068ac1elhodqr

In the uk, in a very similar style, Hancock is going to follow this (Chinese style) use of scanning 'QRCodes to gain entry to premesis'.

Hancock had originally announced a smart phone app which would track coronavirus cases using only Bluetooth technology would launch in May, but it suffered set backs. Instead a new app will scan QR codes on posters in the windows of businesses including pubs, restaurants, hairdressers and cinemas so that they can check-in.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/09/11/nhs-contact-tracing-app-launch-september-24-qr-code-location/

The updated app (test and trace QR code system) on Sept 24th (E&W) will include QR code location tracking scheme, to track which pubs, restaurants and hairdressers people go into. Businesses will be encouraged to put up codes for customers in coming days, which will then record the visit on the user’s phone for 21 days.

Since ditching the original App, this new one will get customers to scan the QR codes in the new updated NHS Covid-19 app, when they visit a business instead of handing over contact details for the manual track and trace system. It may also avail of bluetooth location, for additional tracking.

8kczg9v0swrydm

There is a good article on Health Passport Ireland in this month's Alive magazine (p. 11).

This is definitely a niche publication - it is a pity that the media only cover this issue in glowing terms. As stated in previous posts, there are serious problems with this programme.

biko

Interesting piece.

JustAThought

I was worrying about becoming a couch potato the other day & so started googling to see just exactly how many ‘steps’ or km a day I should be walkkng, rather than slothing on the couch eating crisps.

I came across an academic paper - I think from stanford (massive ivy league university in the USA) - that had done a massive anaylsis, somehow supported by the CIA on ‘data’ they had globally gathered from smartphones across the glove - over 750,000 of them. It identified people of different ages, in different countries, and did a massive evaluation of where they walked, for how long, how many km, how often the did the same walk, how they interacted with theor goelocations differently depending on whether it was a weekday or weekend, and adjusted for different cultures and religions - like Saudi women not getting out as much cos of the chaperone laws etc. It reinforced all my fears about health tracker apps and fitbits and garmins & phone trackers - that this information IS being sold on and processed by companies with vested interests or commercial objectives to exploit your personal data for their gain.

I would absolutely feel the same about this proposed passport. And all you have to do is read the other thread today on boards on the Village magazine & corruption and misuse of patients hospital files for uses other than what the patients envisioned and the ensuing backdeals to privately commercialise this information to see that it IS, on so many levels, a frighteningly bad idea - for us.

I note that the last time I put in for a car insurance claim they wanted access to ALL of my
medical records before they would pricess the claim - GDPR my arse - they were ZERO help - even though the claim was for a scratched side pannel done by a hit and run they were foing tonscrutinise my medical files before they paid out. The same insurance firm is also a massive European power in medical underwriting and medical insurance.

This is the start of something dark that will run deep and destroy many lives.

On a similar note - why has no magazine or newspaper EVER run a story on the monstorous numbers of Irish, Life Assurance Claims and Life Insurance policies that are denied to be paid out every year here in ireland. They have floors of staff scrutinising medical files obtained after death and use these forensically to say fMilies never notified them of X or Y or a change in medical circumstances since they filled out the form 30 years before and ruthlessly deny policy payments that people have been paying into monthly for decades. Do people think this won’t be linked to assurance, death benefit claims, car insurance, policys, business insurance etc.

Big NO to this, and anything like it.

Didn’t they try and stealth creep this in under ‘identity cards’ a few years back.

seenitall

You really like the word ‘massive’, JaT, don’t you?

(Sorry, I’m just bored.)

On topic, I agree with you. I don’t run a car, so there won’t be a problem there at least. But I ain’t getting no Covid app unless absolutely forced to by law, or if they make it mandatory for travel and so on. Sneaky stuff.

8kczg9v0swrydm

To quote a comment: "Last year the world were mocking the Chinese for bowing down to this, and now 99% can’t even see that they are doing it themselves."

Richard Hillman

This is way, way, way, waaaaaay too much. Your health is your business and your business only.

Richard Hillman

Stuff like this starts off for Covid then enters into the mainstream. As it said in the video about things like hospitality, events, travel etc. Health Insurance companies will want a grab of something similar. Lower premiums if you download the app or wear a tracker. Theyll know how much you exercised, where you ate, how long you spent in a pub etc.

It's 100% down the lines of the Social Credit System. You end up with a 2 tier society. Benefits with those who engage with it and everyone left outside of it fends for themselves.

I think the people who developed this ad and app probably did it to make a quick buck off Covid. Maybe they didn't even think of Tyrannical nature of it but stuff like this needs to be told to **** off early doors. Because once it's in, it will only grow.

nomdeboardie

JustAThought wrote: »

...
I note that the last time I put in for a car insurance claim they wanted access to ALL of my
medical records before they would pricess the claim - GDPR my arse - they were ZERO help - even though the claim was for a scratched side pannel done by a hit and run they were foing tonscrutinise my medical files before they paid out. ...

You were just claiming for damage to the car (no personal, i.e. bodily, injury)? If so, how were they trying to justify that?

thebaz

a friend of mine was not fealing well, heavy cold , doctor sent him for test came back negative , still didnt feal right , phoned doctor , and was told tests are inaccurate up to 40 % - this seams very high to me but thats what he was told , but this test Passport seams a Big Brother step way too far , given some of the statistics released by the Irish Times today, where 93% of Covid deaths people had underlining conditions, and ICU admissions and deaths down to a fraction of first wave.

biko

It's starting...

Los Angeles
Ticketmaster To Verify COVID Vaccination Status Of Fans Before Issuing Concert Passes

https://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2020/11/11/ticketmaster-concert-covid-vaccine-coronavirus-testing-tickets/

cee_jay

4068ac1elhodqr wrote: »

It's from a company that 'only' works with governments and heads of state around the world (yes: gov backed).

I don't think it is - they are saying they have done some work with the HSE, but this system seems completely private, and has no HSE branding anywhere. The privacy notice does not mention HSE anywhere. It is very careful (read: shady) marketing being done, even copying the style of some government videos. But I really don't think this has anything to do with HSE.

keano_afc

But, but, its all just a conspiracy theory.

I genuinely worry for anyone brainwashed into believing this a good idea.

seamus

keano_afc wrote: »

But, but, its all just a conspiracy theory.

I genuinely worry for anyone brainwashed into believing this a good idea.

It is just a conspiracy theory. The private company this thread is about have failed to gain any traction for their "health passport" idea since they went on their publicity drive at the start of September.

They were expecting a huge rush of businesses looking to get involved, but it never came.

They will quietly shelve their attempts to launch this in Ireland and move to a country where people distrust eachother and don't care about privacy, like the US or South Africa.

Eric Cartman

Yeah.. this looks shady as hell. Thankfully no traction from it. If theres one surefire way to keep me off a plane or out of the pub its request this

8kczg9v0swrydm

seamus wrote: »

It is just a conspiracy theory. The private company this thread is about have failed to gain any traction for their "health passport" idea since they went on their publicity drive at the start of September.

They were expecting a huge rush of businesses looking to get involved, but it never came.

They will quietly shelve their attempts to launch this in Ireland and move to a country where people distrust eachother and don't care about privacy, like the US or South Africa.

Sorry, but I think this is burying the head in the sand. HPI has gained traction. They now have a new app which is available for download (which was not there in September).

As mentioned in the article I have attached in a previous post, HPI has been on trial in Tallaght Hospital. The results of these and other similar trials are now being analysed by the Government (article from November!):

https://www.imt.ie/news/covid-19-passport-pilot-results-submitted-health-authorities-03-11-2020/

This will not go away. It is being flown under the radar because many people would clearly not be in favour of it. Unless there is some organised resistance to it, chances there will be massive pressure exerted upon the public to use HPI in the new year.

440Hertz

They really could do without adopting the look and feel of a state body's advertising and the term "Health Passport Ireland" sounds like a state agency.

This is a private company setting up a private app and is nothing to do with the state.

Mr. Karate

Richard Hillman wrote: »

This is way, way, way, waaaaaay too much. Your health is your business and your business only.

Isn't it amazing how the people pushing this now were all screaming "MY BODY! MY CHOICE!" just a couple of years ago.

Plus these same people would be claiming to be against the Nazis and Communists,etc.

paw patrol

seamus wrote: »

It is just a conspiracy theory.

Not really tbh.


The PM of Finland was calling for this but now our own great Fianna Fail MEP, Billy Kelleher has called for something similar for on our passports.



https://www.thesun.ie/news/6155468/government-passport-vaccine-covid-stamp-mep-fianna-fail/

Westernworld.

It's quite obvious this will come in globally.

Easier to catch them with the passport after than forcing them to take the vaccine upfront

paw patrol

Westernworld. wrote: »

It's quite obvious this will come in globally.

Easier to catch them with the passport after than forcing them to take the vaccine upfront

for sure, straight out of the chinese playbook.
No need to enforce this with the threat of jail or sanctions just deny them the access of a decent enjoyable life.

Westernworld.

paw patrol wrote: »

for sure, straight out of the chinese playbook.
No need to enforce this with the threat of jail or sanctions just deny them the access of a decent enjoyable life.

Pretty much it, but it will happen this way

Can't force anyone to take a vaccine but can make life impossible if they dont

Sunday Independent, front page yesterday. Micheal Martin mentioning how it's "very possible the government will introduce a vaccination passport that would enable people to travel abroad and attend large public gatherings".
Translation: incoming vaccinations. Non-compliance and you lose previous rights and freedoms like travelling, attending concerts, sports events etc.

Taking orders from the EU here. Will be the biggest issue of the coming year if pushed through.

Interestingly, the article was combined with the whole Christmas situation. The headline was "We get it. People are tired. They want a meaningful Christmas". Then the start of smaller print column mentions the above, before reverting back to Christmas talk. Crazy.

biko

Before anyone is forced to take the vaccine the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste, and their families should do it on TV.

biko

biko wrote: »

Before anyone is forced to take the vaccine the entire government should do it on TV.

Let's be honest, that would be meaningless. Easily faked if they didn't want to take the actual vax.

biko

Possibly, but would they risk the scandal if they faked it?
If the leaders of the nation won't risk it, how can they ask the citizens to risk it?

paw patrol

biko wrote: »

Before anyone is forced to take the vaccine the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste, and their families should do it on TV.

Deleted User wrote: »

Let's be honest, that would be meaningless. Easily faked if they didn't want to take the actual vax.

biko wrote: »

Possibly, but would they risk the scandal if they faked it?
If the leaders of the nation won't risk it, how can they ask the citizens to risk it?

doesn't matter tbh - most of these would sell their granny's for politics.
They'd gamble on a risky vaccine to boost their profile.


Its a few years back, but remember the PR gaffe of the british minister having his kid eat a burger as PR stunt to show british beef was safe during the mad cow drama

he was hammered at the time but I think the media are a different animal these days , very much in bed with the politicals



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/369625.stm

Probably the most derided politician to emerge out of the BSE scandal, John Gummer will always be remembered for making great public show of feeding his four-year-old daughter Cordelia a hamburger in the midst of the "mad cow" disease scare.

biko

biko wrote: »

Possibly, but would they risk the scandal if they faked it?

Would be done in a way to ensure that would never happen. Expect celebrities to start posting about receiving their vaccinations. A few possibly will be "vaccinated" on video; easy way to encourage uptake in social media era.

biko wrote: »

If the leaders of the nation won't risk it, how can they ask the citizens to risk it?

Coercion through exclusion. Flying, concerts, sports events. Who knows what then. Supermarkets, perhaps?

People need to realize they'll be signing up for 2-4 shots per year with this. I'm absolutely willing to be tested if needs be before flying etc. No problem. But nobody should be coerced into signing up for these annual vaccinations (possibly even every six months). If this is allowed to go through, why would the pharma companies ever want it to stop? Absolute goldmine. Coronavirus would "always" be a threat -- forever-- one way or another. The whole setup over time would be extremely vulnerable to corruption.

JustAThought

nomdeboardie wrote: »

You were just claiming for damage to the car (no personal, i.e. bodily, injury)? If so, how were they trying to justify that?

They couldn’t !! Car bodywork only & no injury claim for me - but they wanted ALL my meducal records going back decades. I went mental over it. ‘Luckily’ my car was parked at the time so they had zero justification whatsoever and I point blank
refused. I’ll never insure my car with them again - and - as stated , unknown to me at the time their sister company is a (massive!) medical underwriting company. Shocking abuse of personal information. And the useless shower in the Ombudsman showed as little interest as though I had called & said I had dropped a pencil on the footpath.

I wonder how many meetings with Varadkar the managed to wrangle and how many secret reports they had access to in terms of the HSE and their new personal health file management system they have been tinkering with developing and throwing money at for years.

paw patrol

paw patrol wrote: »

I think the media are a different animal these days , very much in bed with the politicals

They are, unfortunately. The newspaper headlines here yesterday and today were very telling. (Paraphrasing):

"May not be enough vaccines for everyone"

"Pfizer tells Ireland: 'Use it or lose it'"

Such transparent sales tactics :rolleyes:

Look, there's been heated debate on other threads about all of this resulting in various bans (myself included), so I'll keep it clean and simple:
I don't want anybody in this country coerced into any medical procedures. I've had vaccines in the past, and have nothing against them in general. That said, I have my reservations about this one, for various reasons. I also fear it will lead us down a dark and slippery slope in other ways.

I think a fair approach would be as follows:

- Those who choose to be vaccinated for Covid can do so. Paid for through taxpayer funds.
- Those who choose not to be vaccinated should be rapid tested prior to air travel, or mass gatherings like concerts and sporting events. Paid for directly by ourselves on site.

I'd be fine with this compromise. It's a sensible, balanced approach. Everyone stays safe, and they can still make their money off us with the testing -- so be it.

s1ippy

Mr. Karate wrote: »

Isn't it amazing how the people pushing this now were all screaming "MY BODY! MY CHOICE!" just a couple of years ago.

Plus these same people would be claiming to be against the Nazis and Communists,etc.

What in the name of fuck are you talking about, of course people who were in favour of bodily autonomy would not be in favour of governments having detailed records on your medical history and using them to restrict you.

What an ignorant view, have you decided anything else that "they" believe?

MrMusician18

paw patrol wrote: »

for sure, straight out of the chinese playbook.
No need to enforce this with the threat of jail or sanctions just deny them the access of a decent enjoyable life.

What exactly is the problem with this? You don't take the vaccine as is your choice, then you don't get to put others in danger, you don't get to share in the spoils of the safety created by everyone else's effort.

If people want to live outside society, that's their choice.

km991148

MrMusician18 wrote: »

What exactly is the problem with this? You don't take the vaccine as is your choice, then you don't get to put others in danger, you don't get to share in the spoils of the safety created by everyone else's effort.

If people want to live outside society, that's their choice.

The problems is, control of data in my mind.

As usual this is dressed up as safety. You know what - I have done fcuk all since March in the interest of safety. No house parties, not mass gatherings, essential travel only. Not seen family since Feb. And now I need to give over everything to god knows who..

It doesn't help there are all sorts of conspiracy theories doing the rounds, but who owns and controls your data is pretty significant.

km991148

km991148 wrote: »

The problems is, control of data in my mind.

As usual this is dressed up as safety. You know what - I have done fcuk all since March in the interest of safety. No house parties, not mass gatherings, essential travel only. Not seen family since Feb. And now I need to give over everything to god knows who..

It doesn't help there are all sorts of conspiracy theories doing the rounds, but who owns and controls your data is pretty significant.

Exactly. And everything that's added on top later will be under the guise of 'safety', too. Annual vaccinations, digital ID's/vax passport tracking any place you enter, government/corporations etc having access to your medical information and all the rest that goes with it.

But at least you're 'safe', right?

MrMusician18

km991148 wrote: »

The problems is, control of data in my mind.

As usual this is dressed up as safety. You know what - I have done fcuk all since March in the interest of safety. No house parties, not mass gatherings, essential travel only. Not seen family since Feb. And now I need to give over everything to god knows who..

It doesn't help there are all sorts of conspiracy theories doing the rounds, but who owns and controls your data is pretty significant.

You don't need to give over everything, the proposal is just to give over your vaccination status for the covid-19 vaccine.

Given that life has been on hold, as you acknowledge because of the pandemic, the above request is a small one with a lot of societal benefit.

MrMusician18

Deleted User wrote: »

Exactly. And everything that's added on top later will be under the guise of 'safety', too. Annual vaccinations, digital ID's/vax passport tracking any place you enter, government/corporations etc having access to your medical information and all the rest that goes with it.

But at least you're 'safe', right?

Slippery slope fallacy. Fight that battle when it comes, not when it's invented in your head.

paw patrol

MrMusician18 wrote: »

What exactly is the problem with this? You don't take the vaccine as is your choice, then you don't get to put others in danger, you don't get to share in the spoils of the safety created by everyone else's effort.

If people want to live outside society, that's their choice.

That's brilliant , straight out of the social credit handbook.


My problem with this is , that it is control. Large parts of my free will (and free movement that i'm entitled too) are being taken away (proposed) - if I won't comply. I'm being imprisoned (in a manner) if I don't play ball and jump through their hoops.

I find it difficult that people don't at least understand the issue with this.

but once we are safe? yeah.
Covid19 isn't the worst illness we have seen yet it's being used to roll out huge changes to our lives.

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Slippery slope fallacy. Fight that battle when it comes, not when it's invented in your head.

it's too late then. It's always is.

MrMusician18 wrote: »

You don't need to give over everything, the proposal is just to give over your vaccination status for the covid-19 vaccine.

Given that life has been on hold, as you acknowledge because of the pandemic, the above request is a small one with a lot of societal benefit.

but it's not this is it. Sure I'll tell them yes or no on the vaccine but it'll be used to discriminate and that's the issue.

MrMusician18

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Slippery slope fallacy. Fight that battle when it comes, not when it's invented in your head.

Too late then, as paw patrol said. Prevention is always better than cure, if you'll excuse the pun.

You really think a health passport would stop at Covid-19? That's very naive.

MrMusician18

paw patrol wrote: »

That's brilliant , straight out of the social credit handbook.


My problem with this is , that it is control. Large parts of my free will (and free movement that i'm entitled too) are being taken away (proposed) - if I won't comply. I'm being imprisoned (in a manner) if I don't play ball and jump through their hoops.

I find it difficult that people don't at least understand the issue with this.

but once we are safe? yeah.
Covid19 isn't the worst illness we have seen yet it's being used to roll out huge changes to our lives.



it's too late then. It's always is.


but it's not this is it. Sure I'll tell them yes or no on the vaccine but it'll be used to discriminate and that's the issue.

Would you say your free will is limited by not being permitted to go drink driving? Why can't you be steaming and take to the roads. Do you feel you're imprisoned if you don't play ball with that? Do you feel imprisoned by having to wear clothes in public?

Your argument is ridiculous and belongs in the conspiracy theory bin. Behaviour and actions have long been regulated - having a vaccine to participate in mass gatherings and to prevent the spread of disease is completely reasonable. And it's also reasonable for society to shun those that opt out.