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To Mask or not to two - Mask Megathread cont.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 974 ✭✭✭KanyeSouthEast


    I wonder will Covid Claire or Pat Kenny etc pick up on this story? To those of us who questioned the madness at the time and were shouted down it’s somewhat astonishing to see this.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx




  • Registered Users Posts: 17,446 ✭✭✭✭MEGA BRO WOLF 5000




  • Registered Users Posts: 4,577 ✭✭✭jackboy


    It was clear early on that masks are only effective in conjunction with a level five lockdown. Once the virus is rampant and people are exposed to the virus multiple times each day they cannot work. They are effective when virus is low in the population with a level five lockdown as they can prevent infection in the rare exposure event.



  • Registered Users Posts: 974 ✭✭✭KanyeSouthEast


    Sorry I can’t. It’s behind a paywall. Caught my eye in the shop this morning but basically one of the top HSE guys on NPHET calling out the whole reaction around school closures prolonged mask mandates and bans on visits to nursing homes as over the top. driven by ego and agenda.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,987 ✭✭✭normanoffside




  • Registered Users Posts: 29,623 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    If you look back to the earlier iteration of the thread... I think Martin Cormican was the guy who locked onto the original Chinese mis-information about fomite transmission and played down the person-to-person transmission and respiratory transmission. He was one of the driving forces behind the whole if you don't handle the mask exactly perfectly you will get infected and recommending nursing home staff and health care workers NOT wear masks. He didn't seem to let go of this angle even as all other health authorities WHO etc moved onto primarily respiratory spread.

    Does he explain how washing hands is going to primarily protect you against being infected by a respiratory disease? He seemed to completely over focus on washing hands.

    It sounds like he still thinks it spreads by touch and surfaces if he is going against social distancing and masks. Perhaps if he gave his scientific explanation for how covid and flu spreads that would be helpful... because at the moment he isn't making sense.

    Post edited by odyssey06 on

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,974 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Out of interest do you have any specific expertise or particular qualifications that would give any credibility to your dismissal of NPHET Expert Advisor Professor Martin Cormican's opinions?

    Nothing stands out in your posts to suggest you do so I thought it best to check.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,623 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Well he appears to be disagreeing with consensus expert scientific opinion on covid spread. I am not who he disagrees with nor really am I the one who dismisses him.

    So I refer the same query right back to you. What is your expertise in dismissing such expert scientific consensus?

    Or do you agree with it?

    You consistently disagree and dispute the scientific consensus on covid and yet... nothing stands out in your posts to suggest you have particular expertise or qualifications to do so.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,944 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Not required.

    Someone doesn't need to be e.g. an expert to point to valid criticism about a professional. As long as the criticism itself is valid. Likewise individual experts aren't infallible and even individuals with the best intentions make can make mistakes or flawed judgements.



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  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,974 ✭✭✭hometruths




  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,974 ✭✭✭hometruths


    I agree with most of what he says in todays Indo - essentially that NPHET and the government made a lot of mistakes in the pandemic. I particularly agree with the following:

    “The ‘follow the science’ mantra tended to communicate to the public a degree of certainty about the expected benefits of certain measures that was not supported by evidence,” he writes. “We depended too much on fear to influence behaviour.”



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,623 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Either you agree with him in full or you dont. And you dont. But yet still disagree with him on some points. And your decision isnt informed by your own specific qualifications or expertise.

    Yet you dont see the hypocrisy in questioning other posters on same.

    Glad we established the hollowness and insincerity of your line of argument.

    You consistently disagree and dispute the scientific consensus on covid and yet... nothing stands out in your posts to suggest you have particular expertise or qualifications to do so.

    Do you want to list the qualifications of all the experts you appear to disagree with on covid and masks? It is a long list. We may be here for some time.

    So as I said wrt masks Cormican previously seemed to think hand washing was more important and actively opposed their use by HCW. For a respiratory disease.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,577 ✭✭✭jackboy


    Masking was a classic example of this. Without the level five lockdown covid ripped through the population despite mask mandates. This fact takes precedent over all the small scale studies carried out under controlled conditions. Masks without level five lockdowns don’t work.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,623 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Statement without foundation.

    There are case studies showing individuals being protected in high risk situations eg flights, hairdressers.

    The Bangladesh study showed a reduction in cases without lockdown with masks and distancing.

    Both of which Cormican seems to have an issue with.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,919 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    It would be very informative to hear Martin Cormican being interviewed by either Claire Byrne or Pat Kenny.

    Better still to hear him debate his position with those he is criticising.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,974 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Either you agree with him in full or you dont

    And there is no room for agreeing with some things but not everything?!

    In any event I wasn't querying your disagreement with him, but your dismissal of him.

    In response to a post about an article on his views about mistakes made in the pandemic you made no comment on whether you agreed or disagreed with these views.

    You just tried to dismiss/discredit him by associating him with Chinese misinformation.

    And that's not even an argument, never mind a hollow or insincere one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,623 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    No there isnt such room if you have based your position - as you did in your opening post - on an 'argument from authority'.

    Hoist on your own petard.

    And in case you hadnt noticed this is the masks thread.

    So maybe you can explain his specific criticisms of masks versus the scientific consensus on them and his view on how covid spreads and what measures would be more effective.

    While you are at it list the credentials of those he disagrees with. You seemed to think that was important earlier in the thread when it suited you.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,452 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    Cases went up and down on a similar trajectory with or without lockdowns or masks.

    I thought people realised that now, since the restrictions were fully lifted.

    Sine we closed down all restrictions and mask wearing, we have had a couple of variants that just washed through the population at pretty much the same rate they did when we were all locked in our houses.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,974 ✭✭✭hometruths


    So as I said wrt masks Cormican previously seemed to think hand washing was more important and actively opposed their use by HCW. For a respiratory disease.

    The recent Cochrane review suggest Cormican had a point.

    Physical interventions to interrupt or reduce the spread of respiratory viruses



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  • Registered Users Posts: 29,623 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Statements without foundation.

    Ignoring everything else that happened in those intervening periods such as changes in testing, vaccines, variant severity and infectiousness, immunity post infection, changed behaviour...

    You are just making stuff up now.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,623 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    The recent review which says:

    Therefore, many studies were conducted in the context of lower respiratory viral circulation and transmission compared to COVID‐19... Adherence with interventions was low in many studies.

    Wrt Hand washing - low‐certainty evidence.

    The high risk of bias in the trials, variation in outcome measurement, and relatively low adherence with the interventions during the studies hampers drawing firm conclusions.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,577 ✭✭✭jackboy


    Sorry but it has been conclusively proven all over the world that masks are ineffective without a lockdown. Individuals being protected in one off situations is irrelevant when one is exposed multiple times daily. This is the reality in the real world, with such real world data the studies are obsolete. Studies are done to try and predict real world effects but are always replaced by real world data.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,452 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    I am not saying those things didnt have an impact on the curves. I think prior infection in particular likley meant that a lot of people didnt get sick, or at least not as sick. Since they had natural immumity plus vaccination on their side.

    But my point still stands. The waves subsided just as quickly when we had no masks or restrictions.

    We had 2 new variants i believe in the last 12 months.

    Neither of those waves were prolongued vs the waves where we implemented restrictions.

    And we didnt restrict our behaviours at all since feb 22 in Ireland.

    That is a fact.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,974 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Yes, the Cochrane review in which the authors conclude:

    The pooled results of RCTs did not show a clear reduction in respiratory viral infection with the use of medical/surgical masks. There were no clear differences between the use of medical/surgical masks compared with N95/P2 respirators in healthcare workers when used in routine care to reduce respiratory viral infection. Hand hygiene is likely to modestly reduce the burden of respiratory illness, and although this effect was also present when ILI and laboratory‐confirmed influenza were analysed separately, it was not found to be a significant difference for the latter two outcomes.




  • Registered Users Posts: 29,623 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    No such thing had been conclusively proven.

    I will stick with scientific consensus on the role of masks wrt to covid in the absence of any actual evidence from you.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,623 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    One of the studies cited in that review is the Danish study which has been frequently discussed on the thread.

    It showed 20 percent fewer cases in people who voluntarily wore masks eg on public transport versus those who did not. But due to the low level of covid in circulation the number was not statistically significant.

    It was not about mask mandates and the study authors were clear it could not be used to draw such conclusions.

    Yet it constantly pops up in such discussions.

    Similarly I suspect one of the other studies will be into the use of cloth masks by hospital cleaning staff as direct protection v flu.

    Again irrelevent to mask mandates.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,623 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Well if the height of the curve was reduced by measures such as masks then they served an important purpose.

    And if you dont think vaccines in particular without regard to previous infection had a significant effect on the numbers being severely sick you have totally left any pretence of following the science - that may not be what you intended to convey but important to call it out.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Posts: 4,727 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It's actually hilarious watching people like you still trying to defend the nonsense when even members of NPHET are now coming out rubbishing it.

    As time goes on I suspect we'll have much more peer reviewed studies like the Cochrane study.

    Now that we need them, the global data alone is enough to show that mask mandates were practically useless.



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  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,974 ✭✭✭hometruths


    It is very relevant to the point we we were discussing about Cormican's opinions on the benefits of masks versus handwashing.

    The findings of the Cochrane review agree with these opinions.

    Surely you're not dismissing the Cochrane Library as grifters peddling misinformation?



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