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To Mask or not to two - Mask Megathread cont.

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,232 ✭✭✭waterwelly


    Wouldn't have worked before Christmas either.

    But whatever argument is being made for them, the horse has long bolted at this point.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    I wore a mask on the bus to D-Doc and when I had pneumonia. Other than that no. Even when I had a bit of a cough I couldn’t shift I wasn’t masking up. Don’t think it would have made a tiny bit of difference.

    Edit to add: I didn’t wear a mask to my mums at Xmas either where they all had that dose that was going around. Didn’t catch anything.



  • Posts: 4,727 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Just a reminder. The latest from the Taoiseach and Minister of Health is that they are not anticipating any mask mandates.

    “Mr Donnelly said that he does not anticipate any change to public health advice from the Chief Medical Officer in terms of any mask mandate in congregated settings.”



  • Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 78,351 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    waterwelly threadbanned



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭kirk.


    Masks not even mentioned on newsnight discussion on the NHS crisis



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,451 ✭✭✭dalyboy


    For people who advocate the usefulness of controlling the effects of covid 19 respiratory disease via mask mandates please explain this riddle.

    The Chinese people are the most mask devote society on the planet. In the last 3 years I have yet to see one Chinese persons face (all masked) .They are mandated (to this day) to wear them EVERYWHERE at risk of a prison sentence etc.

    With this undisputed above fact can mask proponents please explain why Chinese doctors are today reporting that an estimate of 70% of their population is believed to now be recently infected with covid 19 ? How is this possible if masks can cleverly allude a infectious airborne virus such as covid ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,756 ✭✭✭jackboy


    Omicron is far too infectious for masks to work. Masks can only work in conjunction with a level five lockdown.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,144 ✭✭✭xhomelezz


    But it's not about stopping Omicron..

    Masks can only work in conjunction with a level five lockdown.

    Can you elaborate a bit more on that one?

    Hospitals are in shít, so personally, I would expect people will start masking voluntarily to try to ease up the pressure. But since we are pretty selfish creatures, we have debates like this one.



  • Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 78,351 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Don't Chute! threadbanned



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,349 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    I see the INMO are threatening industrial action including strike and further calling for/demanding mask mandates.




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  • Posts: 4,727 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I've reached out to some of the unions making the news this morning and asked them for how long they want a mask mandate to continue.

    What difference will it make to the numbers. When do they think it will be acceptable to end it? Why should we do it when very few other countries are.

    With COVID numbers stable and trolley numbers significantly dropping and doctors returning from holidays, why should we do it now.


    Will see if they reply.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭Sconsey


    'Calling for' not 'demanding', you were already corrected once for your hyperbole, but you just couldn't resist trying again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,349 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Threatening to go on strike and looking for mask mandates "... should have mandatory mask wearing...". That's a demand. But you can dress it up any way you want 👍



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭Sconsey


    You seem to be living in a world of absolutes, like most of the people on here that do not believe masks are of any use. No one is saying masks will eliminate virus transmission, people are saying masks are an effective tool in reducing the rate of transmission if used correctly. Now, have you any evidence that the transmission rate in China would be the exact same if none of them were wearing masks? I don't, but the science suggests that masks can reduce that transmission rate and that is good enough for me.

    How is this possible if masks can cleverly allude a infectious airborne virus such as covid ?

    Where did you pull that statement from? sounds like bullsh1t you made up, masks have been proven to reduce the risk of transmission, not 'cleverly allude' as you are saying. Sounds like you are making stuff up, or maybe reading too many facebook conspiracy theories.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,534 ✭✭✭greasepalm


    I was over in chemist picking up some meds and they have run out of facemasks and maybe the public think it might be safer to wear one over not wearing one.

    If it stops me from getting an infection i will wear one , if other people dont want to wear one and suffer getting an infection its their choice.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,875 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭Sconsey


    Word fror word from the content you quoted yourself....The Irish Nurses and Midwives Organisation has called for a return to mandatory mask-wearing in congregated settings as part of the response to the record number of patients waiting for beds.

    Good lad.



  • Posts: 4,727 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    He's literally mentioned potentially going on strike...

    Not the actions of a person politely requesting something.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,349 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    3 years in and people still think masks stop you from getting Covid or any other airborne illness for that matter.

    At best they might, might stop you from spreading it. At best.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,831 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    It's a legal requirement in Germany to wear face masks on public transport whether is S-Bahn, ICE, Bus etc. Compliance is very high.

    I was in Dusseldorf, Koln and Hamburg before Christmas and everyone bar the homeless were wearing masks on public transport.

    Masks work, it's been proven time and time again in hundreds if not thousands of experiments/tests at this point. You can check this yourself, just google "Do masks work to slow the spread of airborne infection"

    You are correct however in that Paddy is non-compliant, and the government is on VERY thin ice as it is with all the other problems we have. It's highly unlikely that they will enforce or oblige any sort of mask wearing that will irritate the public.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭Sconsey


    Not sure if you are trying to be funny or are just oblivious...you are accusing me of 'dressing up' the statement when I am quoting directly whereas you are presenting your own spin on the article as fact....and I'm the one dressing it up. Oblivious I guess.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,182 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Can you find us the quote where they threaten to go on strike over mask mandates?

    Because this is what I see reported:

    The general secretary of the Irish Nurses and Midwives organisation says nurses will consider striking, if the situation in emergency departments doesn’t improve.

    https://highlandradio.com/2023/01/04/inmo-to-consider-strike-action-at-emergency-meeting-this-week/

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,349 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    I gave you the actual quote and they are now looking at strike action as well. Not the actions of people just "calling" for something. But you keep dressing it up. Good man yourself 👍



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,349 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Where did I say they were going on strike over mask mandates???? I said they are threatening strike AND looking for mask mandates. 🙄



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭Sconsey


    Oh here we go with your own editorializing, you are now interpreting their comments in your own way (dare I say dressing them up?), without any actual quote of a demand. I quoted verbatim their 'call for', you interpret something else and claim it is a quote. Do you even know what dressing up means? If anything I am dressing-down your hyperbole.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,182 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    So there's no link between the two.

    So this post is a deliberate attempt to mislead by your own admission then? You linked the strike reference to masks to bolster your unjustified description of it as a 'demand'.


    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,349 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    It is a direct quote from the INMO head. You're all over the shop bud.

    Here it is again as you appear to be very confused.

    Phil Ni Sheaghdha says "all congregated settings, so public transport, any centres where people are congregating where illnesses can spread" should have a mandatory mask-wearing situation.

    A union has no business "calling for" citizens to me masked up. None. But you keep it up. It's actually quite entertaining.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,764 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    A union has every right to call for any measure they consider to be in the interest of their members.

    You have the right to disagree and put the opposite case.

    At the end of the day it is up to the Government to weigh up the pros and cons and decide one way or the other.



  • Registered Users Posts: 991 ✭✭✭Stormyteacup


    Some German regions have removed the mask mandate for January and more will follow.

    There are numerous studies done prior to 2020 on the ineffectiveness of masks against airborne viruses.

    Here are two recent studies questioning mask effectiveness during Covid with hindsight, as opposed to studies done through the pandemic as waves came and went, and as other measures were used in conjunction with mask wearing. The discussion part in the first one is interesting.

    There is no clear evidence of ecological reduction of infection due to mask wearing alone.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭Sconsey


    Direct quote of the executive summary complete conclusion....(I'm not picking and choosing a single line that might suit my purposes).

    Conclusion

    • A preliminary conclusion is that medical masks may help in preventing respiratory virus infection. However, the currently available experimental results are too preliminary to support an informed policy.
    • More well-designed and robust research on the effectiveness of masks in preventing COVID-19 infection is needed.

    So even the study you are quoting says masks may help reduce spread, while many many more reports say they do reduce the risk of spread. With all that evidence is it such a crime to ask people to wear them in certain situations?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,479 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    Because China has sxxx vaccines and didn't place emphasis s on vaccination of vulnerable.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,182 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    The studies prior to 2020 did not consider their use as barriers by the general population, they were e.g. studies into cloth masks as direct protection for HCW. That's not why mask mandates were rolled out.

    Having seen a sample of Spira's twitter comments about 'mask fanatics' and having to have a religious belief in masks, let's say I'd be strongly sceptical of any claims he makes and of Cureus's peer review process.

    A large study from Bangladesh had a reduction of about 10% in the number of people who became infected, when compared to the control group that received no interventions.

    A study in Johnson County, Iowa, reported that when an uninfected person and infected person both wore a face mask, the secondary attack rate—the rate at which the infected person passes on the infection to the initially uninfected person—was halved from from 25.6% to 12.5%.

    https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/masking-science-sars-cov2.html

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,756 ✭✭✭jackboy


    such results would indicate masks would be very useful if there are low levels of virus in the population. However, if the population has been overrun with positive cases these results would not give confidence that masks would help. Even if masks reduced the risk of infection by 90% and you were being exposed 10 or 20 times a day, you will quickly get infected, mask or no mask.



  • Registered Users Posts: 991 ✭✭✭Stormyteacup


    A re-analysis of the Bangladesh study here;

    Authors note that behavioural changes as a result of mask wearing have an impact on transmission reduction.

    So does mask wearing altering behaviour reduce transmission? Perhaps, while the population are mostly in fear of becoming infected. But mask wearing alone? Still no evidence for it.

    I suppose there’s dirt on the authors or their peer reviewing process to be uncovered but I’ll leave that to anyone else who wishes to do that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,182 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Are you getting exposed that often though? On a bus how many infected people are there within X of you...

    At an individual level, it is not something to be relied upon, but at a macro level if that translates into a 10% reduction in cases, then it has an impact.

    I would also be curious as to whether it would reduce viral load you were exposed to so even if infected, it would be potentially less severe.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,756 ✭✭✭jackboy


    I Would say it doesn’t reduce cases by 10%. It could slightly delay when you get infected. A bus or a Luas now will be overrun with sick people and most workplaces.

    The viral load thing, yes I agree that makes sense.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,182 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    If you're getting a packed bus everyday your luck will run out eventually ... but if we're talking about say occasional users, in vulnerable demographics, it could have an impact.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,182 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    People are going to know they are wearing masks, hard to RCT that. I supposed they would have needed to have 2 intervention groups, one with masks and distancing and one with distancing.

    It should also be pointed out this study showed a 10% reduction when mask wearing got up to near 50%. On the 'barrier' principal the authors suggested the reduction could be greater with higher use. Against that, it would have been versus Delta variants I think and not Omicron.

    And this isn't the only study showing an effect though.

    Plus there are also the lab studies into the effects of masks on droplets, so we have a plausible mechanism of action versus respiratory viruses such as covid.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,479 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    Why have a union with an interest in the situation got " no business " calling for citizens to be asked to do something which would be in their interests??

    NBRU have asked for masking at different times also , as have teachers unions and other unions representing staff who are public facing .

    They are just representing their workers, why have you got a problem with that ?

    That is the function of a union .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭kirk.


    I've a problem with anyone going against the science

    The workers have idiots representing them



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,182 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    How are they 'going against the science'?

    The CMO recommends mask wearing in those places.

    It's the difference between a recommendation and a mandate.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭kirk.


    It's been apparent that restrictions are causing a wave of respiratory illnesses now because of lack of exposure

    It's just kicking the can down the road the taoiseach said as much today



  • Posts: 4,727 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Funny how for 2 years people told us repeatedly to listen to the experts and the authorities.

    Now some people don't want to listen because it no longer suits them.


    But the authorities have been very clear that there are no plans for a mask mandate.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,182 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    So which is it, masks are too effective or not effective enough at blocking respiratory viruses?

    And why do we vaccinate vulnerable groups against flu if we 'need' it to circulate?

    Kicking the can down the road makes sense if we've had a large section of the population exposed in this season already and the hospitals are at max dealing with that load.

    The calls for masks at present are in specific settings - public transport and medical settings. Essential services where there's random intergenerational mixing, especially with those of vulnerable groups.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭kirk.


    If masks were going to solve the problems I'm sure we'd see them mandated but barely a dickybird



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,313 ✭✭✭✭stephenjmcd


    "If masks were going to solve the problems I'm sure we'd see them mandated but barely a dickybird"

    So are you done rehashing the same lines every week or so that I pointed out yesterday(below)?

    "Every time a union of any sort says something rinse and repeat the above post and guess what nothings happened.

    Sure you were posting in mid December about Varadkar bringing back masks and telling people to expect a recommendation for a mandate....."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,144 ✭✭✭xhomelezz


    Some statement there ..

    About what science and about what idiots are you talking about?

    Genuinely interested to hear all of it



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,764 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Do you really think the INMO don't know the shortcomings of the HSE?

    The responsibility for the state of the health service lies with the HSE, Dept of Health and the Government.

    Trying to blame the INMO is going down a blind alley.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,756 ✭✭✭jackboy


    True enough. The HSE and the government know in a few weeks the trolley numbers will naturally drift down, it will no longer be a news item and the vast majority of people will no longer care. It’s classic government policy to ride out scandals until people no longer care. This is the reason they will not implement a mask mandate.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,764 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Another Minister for Health Mary Harney famously said "The public's memory can often be a very short term one".



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