Aoibheann Ni Shuilleabhain Harassment Story

Loafing Oaf

Psychiatric Patrick wrote: »

Which is one of the reasons that Aoibheann Ni Shuilleabhain has gone public with all this.

I believe this is kind of the logic of the #metoo movement. If prominent women go public about their experience of abuse/harassment, even if it is not at the most severe end of the spectrum, it will hopefully help to empower 'ordinary' women who have suffered whatever kind of abuse, including rape and physical violence, to speak out/fight back.

WoollyRedHat

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

This is the bit I don't get. Even aside from the obligation on the institution to protect all employees, particularly female ones, from this sort of harassment, Aoibhinn Ní Shúilleabháin is possibly the best-known young academic in the country. Surely someone in the office would have said hang on, if we don't sort this out and the story gets into the public domain, we will get absolutely slaughtered over it...

You would think so wouldn't you, but there are stories that the UCD top communications honcho isn't such s nice character to deal with, so it's not so surprising they are keeping so quiet as a result

I can tell you this much from my experiences in UCD and knowing people that work there, if you are an academic that is bringing in massive amounts of funding for the university which equates to sizeable overheads directly payable for the university, they are extremely slow in taking action, because they don't want to lose their money trees., even if the academic in question has been engaged in constant bullying of direct staff as well as continuous abuse to support staff that have the misfortune of having to deal with them.

It's widespread, it's endemic and the rot comes from the top, from the president, down to the governing authority of UCD as well as the HR lackeys, they all cast a blind eye to it. Which is surprising for a university obsessed with it's 'Reputation'. More like protecting it


More scandals to come UCD is crawling in them, this is only the beginning, Deeks will be lucky to see.the year out, also expect a lot of 'Early retirements' and departures from a so-called restructuring in the next while.

Kaybaykwah

Psychiatric Patrick wrote: »

When have I been thin skinned?

It shouldn't bother you that I shortened your handle to Psycho, it just makes it easier.

DellyBelly

Computer Science Student wrote: »

The biggest takeaway from the whole thing for me is how on earth did Ryan Tubridy manage to marry Aoibheann Ni Shuileabhain and in a similar but less baffling vein, how did he manage to blow it?

Never knew they were married.. But I agree how did he let her go. She's a stunner. Must be his second divorce now?

Psychiatric Patrick

Kaybaykwah wrote: »

It shouldn't bother you that I shortened your handle to Psycho, it just makes it easier.

As I said in a later more relevant post which you are not quoting I found it amusing because you say "with all due respect" but there is none and then you attempt to provoke some negative response by using Psycho.

like I mentioned earlier some of you folks wouldn't have survived in the days before political correctness went mad.

Tork

DellyBelly wrote: »

Never knew they were married.. But I agree how did he let her go. She's a stunner. Must be his second divorce now?

Typical. A thread about something serious degenerates into a vehicle for people to make snarky comments about her ex (boyfriend!) who was long off the scene before this kicked off. What difference does it make who she once dated?

elperello

DellyBelly wrote: »

Never knew they were married.. But I agree how did he let her go. She's a stunner. Must be his second divorce now?

Tork wrote: »

Typical. A thread about something serious degenerates into a vehicle for people to make snarky comments about her ex (boyfriend!) who was long off the scene before this kicked off. What difference does it make who she once dated?

Agree that RT has no part in this woman's story of harassment.

Just to clear it up and hopefully draw a line under it, as I stated in an earlier post herself and RT were never married to each other.

Baggly

Mod

Hopefully that part of the discussion has ended anyway, but just so its clear - move on from the Ryan Tubridy stuff. He has nothing to do with this incident.

Kaybaykwah

Psychiatric Patrick wrote: »

As I said in a later more relevant post which you are not quoting I found it amusing because you say "with all due respect" but there is none and then you attempt to provoke some negative response by using Psycho.

like I mentioned earlier some of you folks wouldn't have survived in the days before political correctness went mad.

Okay, the fact I announced I was being respectful seems to have stirred bad feelings in you. I commiserate. I didn't choose your handle, you did.

As for name calling, this doesn't call up the idea of survival that you claim, unless it were insistent to the point of harassment. I don't know how old you are to say that most of us would not have survived "name calling", of all things. That is a pretty juvenile assertion to me.

Tork

I see there's a follow-up of sorts in today's Irish Times from Dr Marie Keenan who teaches in UCD. There's nothing new in the article if you've come to the conclusion that the powers that be in UCD have no interest in tackling this issue, even when brought to them by a lecturer. Still, it's interesting that somebody else has broken ranks, so to speak.

Mongfinder General

Tork wrote: »

I see there's a follow-up of sorts in today's Irish Times from Dr Marie Keenan who teaches in UCD. There's nothing new in the article if you've come to the conclusion that the powers that be in UCD have no interest in tackling this issue, even when brought to them by a lecturer. Still, it's interesting that somebody else has broken ranks, so to speak.

UCD is being depicted as a cess pit. Sex pests at every turn.

IAMAMORON

Tork wrote: »

I see there's a follow-up of sorts in today's Irish Times from Dr Marie Keenan who teaches in UCD. There's nothing new in the article if you've come to the conclusion that the powers that be in UCD have no interest in tackling this issue, even when brought to them by a lecturer. Still, it's interesting that somebody else has broken ranks, so to speak.

Thread carefully with Dr Keenan, she throws in the terminology " sexual violence " 3 times in the first 100 words here. She then manages to name drop for the next 800 words and you have your contentious article, she has scribed books on the matter before.

My advice to any victim of sexual violence, man or women, straight to the cops, bypass HR please. For context, Dr Keenan is highlighting a concern she raised over 5 years ago, nothing was done. I don't like to be overly cynical here either but her timing of such an accusation is deplorable, about 5 years too late imo.

There is no great conspiracy at hand at the upper echelons of UCD here, the fact is that it is such a contentious matter that most pen pushers ( at the top of any organisation ) are too chicken shít to deal with the matter. Eitherway any victims who have not registered a complaint with an Gardaí will get the raised eyebrows initially. HR professionals prefer clean desks and up to date contracts than murky accusations of sexual violence on their watch. Believe.

Before anyone jumps down my throat here, the greatest obstacle facing victims of sexual violence or harassment is people questioning the validity of their claims. The only way to counteract this is to make statements about offences to the Gardaí as soon as possible. Otherwise you just become an unnamed victim written about by some part-time hack looking to jump on the back of another contentious article.

Nabber

CageWager wrote: »

There is always going to be a difference between a man stalking a woman and a woman stalking a man.

If I worked in UCD and some female lecturer kept making unwanted advances, following me around and generally being a creep, I would find it annoying and I would potentially report it but I would not feel any fear because she is highly unlikely/incapable of doing me any physical harm.

If I was a women working in UCD and some weirdo knew my car/where I lived etc. I would be terrified. IMO its not just some kind of nuisance behaviour - its psychological abuse.

I understand the sentiment behind this and the obvious physical difference for the most part between a man and a woman.

This is some what disingenuous to male mental health problems.
Although not sexual related, I had a co-worker who was bullied by a female supervisor, she would often threaten him with a 'slap across the face' for work related issues. I have no doubt that the guy could have beaten her easily. But he suffered severe anxiety and many other mental health issues because of this bullying.

I don't think male and female issues should be weighed against one another. Really the perpetrator needs to be dealt with regardless, the sex of the victim is irrelevant. Last thing we want in these cases is victim blaming.

irishblessing

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Thread carefully with Dr Keenan, she throws in the terminology " sexual violence " 3 times in the first 100 words here. She then manages to name drop for the next 800 words and you have your contentious article, she has scribed books on the matter before.

My advice to any victim of sexual violence, man or women, straight to the cops, bypass HR please. For context, Dr Keenan is highlighting a concern she raised over 5 years ago, nothing was done. I don't like to be overly cynical here either but her timing of such an accusation is deplorable, about 5 years too late imo.

There is no great conspiracy at hand at the upper echelons of UCD here, the fact is that it is such a contentious matter that most pen pushers ( at the top of any organisation ) are too chicken shít to deal with the matter. Eitherway any victims who have not registered a complaint with an Gardaí will get the raised eyebrows initially. HR professionals prefer clean desks and up to date contracts than murky accusations of sexual violence on their watch. Believe.

Before anyone jumps down my throat here, the greatest obstacle facing victims of sexual violence or harassment is people questioning the validity of their claims. The only way to counteract this is to make statements about offences to the Gardaí as soon as possible. Otherwise you just become an unnamed victim written about by some part-time hack looking to jump on the back of another contentious article.

When sexual harassment or harassment or stalking happens in the workplace, there are policies that should come into play though. Oftentimes the behaviour would be against the Dignity at work policy, but not against the law. The employees in question may need to be separated, or indeed let go from employment entirely. The Gardai aren't going to do that.

Another thing to consider is that sexual harassment/harassment can be a slow boiler. I know in my personal experience, people also criticised the way I handled what happened to me, in hindsight of course. It's so easy to judge an experience from the outside.
More judgment is put on the victim for not handling it the way someone else thinks it should be, than on the plain fact that it never should have happened in the first place and put accountability where it belongs. What happens to us is sometimes personally devastating, and it can take time to work through what happened. Some develop anxiety and depression and feel powerless from anything starting with a lack of action on reports, the behaviour not stopping when asked, and judgment from others that you're uptight, can't take a joke, is no big deal, etc. The fear you won't be believed, as so often happens. And the judgment that always inevitably comes you do speak up. And it's harsh, make no mistake.

We all know this and so judging when someone is able to speak up isn't really on. Some are never able to and carry that weight around (as I know my mother in law does and several aunts). Sometimes we don't even have the ability to process what actually happened until months or even years later.

You're right that people questioning the validity of their claims is a big barrier for victims being able to speak up. I'm not sure it's the greatest though and definitely not the only one. Judgement from others is huge, and often causes so much self-doubt and secondary trauma. Often times reliving it is too painful, at least right away and the constant re-telling and others wanted to give their opinions and questioning everything you did or don't do when you went through it is another trauma.

Going the legal route doesn't necessarily counteract anything. Not even close to every reported incident gets justice. I 'pressed charges' and took him to court and I was successful. This man was still rallied around by his friends and family. I still was judged horribly and more blame was put on me for not handling his behaviour better! I got my justice in the end in one sense, but I went through absolute hell because I spoke up. It comes with a heavy price.

The White Wolf

Una Mulally.....shudder.

IAMAMORON

irishblessing wrote: »

Another thing to consider is that sexual harassment/harassment can be a slow boiler. I know in my personal experience, people also criticised the way I handled what happened to me, in hindsight of course. It's so easy to judge an experience from the outside.
More judgment is put on the victim for not handling it the way someone else thinks it should be, than on the plain fact that it never should have happened in the first place and put accountability where it belongs. What happens to us is sometimes personally devastating, and it can take time to work through what happened. Some develop anxiety and depression and feel powerless from anything starting with a lack of action on reports, the behaviour not stopping when asked, and judgment from others that you're uptight, can't take a joke, is no big deal, etc. The fear you won't be believed, as so often happens. And the judgment that always inevitably comes you do speak up. And it's harsh, make no mistake. (

Very relevant and would be something which any current victims need to be wary of. Harassment often initiates really subtly until eventually you are knee deep in it and borderlines of acceptable behaviour have been crossed.

I keep reiterating this, get your point across to your harasser as soon as possible, instant retaliation is required. 99/100 they will never repeat behaviour and you will know how predatorial and serious they are once they ignore your misgivings. If that happens get help immediately.

irishblessing

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Very relevant and would be something which any current victims need to be wary of. Harassment often initiates really subtly until eventually you are knee deep in it and borderlines of acceptable behaviour have been crossed.

I keep reiterating this, get your point across to your harasser as soon as possible, instant retaliation is required. 99/100 they will never repeat behaviour and you will know how predatorial and serious they are once they ignore your misgivings. If that happens get help immediately.

I know you mean well, and you have good points. What comes across in your posting though is more judgement.

In my experience and I believe is common enough from the conversations I have had with other women, is that the harasser almost always doesn't stop when you ask them to. One of the judgments I received for not handling it "better," was because I didn't retaliate by slapping him in the face or kneeing him in the bollóx. He is nearly twice my size. And after which of the dozens of offences? There was no HR at our company as it was quite a small business. By the time my husband spoke to him I no longer felt comfortable working there at all. After being stalked and assaulted, I left my job. Some time later we decided I would file charges (for reasons too personal to go into here).
Luckily I had some proof of my claims which is why I succeeded but the threshold was 'on the balance of probability,' and not 'beyond reasonable doubt.' His family, friends even his wife still stood by him, even though he admitted to the assault and there was proof of it. I was still shamed and belittled for somehow not doing a better job of stopping him and for speaking up and doing that to his family. This came from my own family and a few friends. Luckily I did have other amazing family and friends who supported me.
That is reality.
What I have is technically legal justice, but I'm aware many don't get that and it must further be an absolute trauma on their mental health. In the end I found a strength I never knew I had and have become stronger for it, and stronger and more wise for my own children. But in speaking up it was absolute hell to go through. It shouldn't be like this.

Pintman Paddy Losty

Can't believe the overreaction to all this.

Is it any wonder men no longer approach women when they are made out to be perverts for doing so.

This guy was obviously an older romantic type and thought buying flowers and turning up unexpected at the hotel would sweep her off her feet. To be honest, most women I know would be flattered.

He should have backed off after he was given the message, but maybe he wasn't that perceptive and the message wasn't clear?

Donald Trump

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

He should have backed off after he was given the message, but maybe he wasn't that perceptive and the message wasn't clear?

Would you think perhaps that maybe she was actually asking for it and loving the attention really?














(asked sarcastically of course)

Pintman Paddy Losty

Donald Trump wrote: »

Would you think perhaps that maybe she was actually asking for it and loving the attention really?



(asked sarcastically of course)

Of course not! She's the victim. That's clear. I'm just saying I think he was probably well intentioned. A lot of scientists are very socially awkward so he probably wasn't good at reading subtle signals that women can give off.

eviltwin

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

Of course not! She's the victim. That's clear. I'm just saying I think he was probably well intentioned. A lot of scientists are very socially awkward so he probably wasn't good at reading subtle signals that women can give off.

If he lacks the emotional intelligence to know when his attention is unwelcome he doesn’t deserve to have a job in academia or anywhere else really.

I think having to be removed from said hotel by Gardaí is pretty clear.

Pintman Paddy Losty

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

Of course not! She's the victim. That's clear. I'm just saying I think he was probably well intentioned. A lot of scientists are very socially awkward so he probably wasn't good at reading subtle signals that women can give off.

He followed her to Cork, that's much more than simply misreading signals. I say this as a massive socially awkward nerd btw.

Pintman Paddy Losty

[Deleted User] wrote: »

He followed her to Cork, that's much more than simply misreading signals. I say this as a massive socially awkward nerd btw.

Lots of films have dramatic sequences where the protagonist chases a woman, sometimes even as they walk up the aisle, and profess their undying love. The outcome is usually positive. So he probably thought the same would happen for him.

A case of crossed wires.

IAMAMORON

Deleted User wrote: »

He followed her to Cork, that's much more than simply misreading signals. I say this as a massive socially awkward nerd btw.

I think there is a lot of this more than anything else. Sometimes serious academics and intelligent types lack a certain amount of emotional intelligence.

At the end of the day our own legal system has barred him from contacting her for 5 years. At some stage you have to respect our legal system.

I have gone out on a limb ( with no decent results ) a few times when chasing women I have taken a shine to. But I never gone as a far as finding out what she is driving and following her to another city on her weekend off.... nope. Even if she " led him on" his behaviour showed poor judgement and you need cop on dealing with the modern woman. The dude was not right in the head I reckon and his behaviour by all accounts seems obsessive.

IAMAMORON

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

Lots of films have dramatic sequences where the protagonist chases a woman, sometimes even as they walk up the aisle, and profess their undying love. The outcome is usually positive. So he probably thought the same would happen for him.

A case of crossed wires.

At best you could argue that he got things wrong and completely misinterpreted a situation. But I cannot buy driving the length of the country to give a bird a bunch of flowers. Tooooo much all things considered, I get the impulse, but I still think he went OTT.

Furthermore he had 2 years after that to wipe his face and start being professional with a colleague. When you go out on a limb like he did, that means giving her her space and staying out of her way, he didn't ( or refused ) to do that either.

I actually thought calling the Gards on day 1 seemed excessive, but we don't know what sort of a creep he was or if he had previous which the Irish Times cannot print. The fact that he turned up the day after the Gards were called makes me think he was slightly tilted for starters. If he wanted to apologise for his behaviour a simple note would have done, she certainly did not want it in person.

IAMAMORON

Even if the Hotel fiasco could be overlooked, can you imagine getting all the calls? Albeit how did he have her number at that point?

In March 2016, over the course of one weekend, she received 25 phone calls in a row, followed by 19 phone calls the following day. “It was particularly distressing because I was at a work gig on the Saturday and I was really afraid that he would turn up at it. He didn’t.”

I mean that is total obsessive mad behviour.

o1s1n

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

Is it any wonder men no longer approach women when they are made out to be perverts for doing so.

When did men stop approaching women? Did I miss an announcement?

Purple Mountain

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

Can't believe the overreaction to all this.

Is it any wonder men no longer approach women when they are made out to be perverts for doing so.

This guy was obviously an older romantic type and thought buying flowers and turning up unexpected at the hotel would sweep her off her feet. To be honest, most women I know would be flattered.

He should have backed off after he was given the message, but maybe he wasn't that perceptive and the message wasn't clear?

Three words for you, Paddy:
No means no.

Kaybaykwah

:pac:

Purple Mountain wrote: »

Three words for you, Paddy:
No means no.

"No means no", by no means means no, to knuckleheads.

irishblessing

o1s1n wrote: »

When did men stop approaching women? Did I miss an announcement?

That kind of comment by the other poster is just code for he wants women to be kept in that same place of disrespect and harm so he can continue on with his bad behaviour he enjoys so much and doesn't want to change.

He knows it's not a simple example of merely surprising her with flowers to sweep a woman off her (willing) feet, he just doesn't care.