Police shootings, vigilante shootings, and Black Lives Matter

Biafranlivemat

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

...and it will take more than structural reform of the police in the USA to reduce widespread inequality in that country but it's an excellent place to start.

Other areas that require action:

• Underfunding of services
• Access to credit
• School funding
• Food deserts in urban areas
• Widespread voter disenfranchisement
• Prison sentence reform
• Reform of bail laws

Underfunding of services
gov departments are always greedily looking for more money.
Those big pension checks are expensive.
Access to credit


Access to credit is done by proving to lenders, that you pay you bills on time.
When I started off with no credit, I got a “secured credit card” by giving $400 to my bank, They in turn, gave me a CC to the value of $400. After about 18 months, I could prove I paid the monthly bill on time and the bank gave me a real CC and my $400 back.Then I got a car loan etc


School funding
So you want to waste more money on the education racket.
District of Columbia wastes $30,115 per student, and has little to show for it
https://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/terence-p-jeffrey/dc-public-schools-spend-30k-student-only-23-8th-graders-proficient


Food deserts in urban areas
No such thing


Widespread voter disenfranchisement
No such thing, You are being lied to.
Voter fraud is widespread


Prison sentence reform
yes, bring back the death penalty and longer prison sentences for white collar crime


Reform of bail laws
Already tried , nasty results.
https://tbdailynews.com/monica-cannon-grant-and-mass-bail-fund-raised-15k-of-donated-money-to-bail-a-3-time-rapist-out-of-jail-who-raped-again-this-week/

nullzero

Foxtrol wrote: »

I'm struggling to get my head around your logic here.

- You accept that racist practices have caused black families to be on average significantly poorer than white families.

- You believe policing comes down heavier on poor communities.

- Despite believing both of those things, you think the policing structure and cops are able to keep both of those things completely separate, neither consciously nor sub-consciously connect them - that a given black person is more likely to be poor and therefore face a different approach to policing?

Racist policies historically, not currently.

Policing doesn't come down heavier on poorer communities, the law comes down heavier on crimes typically committed by people from poorer backgrounds, thanks to the 1994 crime Bill, most notably the 100:1 ratio difference in sentencing for possession of Crack cocaine (what poor people take) compared to powder cocaine (what rich people take).

You are incorrect to say I believe the things you mentioned above, and the rest of the post, to me isn't grounded in reality.

Biafranlivemat

Foxtrol wrote: »

Plenty of examples of US cops doing similar.

Here is one:

https://twitter.com/SCSTATE1896/status/1226180034630688768?s=20

As for armoured vehicles, this monster was provided to the town of fewer than 9,000 residents and a low crime rate.

https://twitter.com/thedailyangle/status/1273988711211024385?s=20




The FBI warned how the US police force were infiltrated by white supremacist groups and basically nothing was done.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/fbi-white-supremacists-in-law-enforcement

That article lists several instances of police getting caught and below are some more recent:

https://chicago.suntimes.com/2020/5/27/21272143/chicago-police-department-officers-antifa-proud-boys

https://apnews.com/article/12ece8cedbf045259dcddebf619141e7

https://theintercept.com/2020/06/19/militia-vigilantes-police-brutality-protests/

https://theintercept.com/2020/08/28/kyle-rittenhouse-violent-pro-trump-militias-police/

Nothing in those links, show US police organizing, weather official or unofficial into forming Death Squads and then carrying out attacks.


I'm against the police looking like the RUC of 1969 ie PD's having armored cars.

Biafranlivemat

nullzero wrote: »

There is systemic issue that effects poor people as a group in America. It doesn't require the colour of the persons skin to be taken into consideration. If you are born poor there's a reasonable chance you will die poor.
We have similar (I would in fact argue identical) issues in this country, skin colour isn't a factor, being poor is the problem.

I would go 1 step more and argue that poor people are oppressed. It was hard being poor in the past but it's harder today and will get worst under Harris and Biden.

nullzero

Biafranlivemat wrote: »

I would go 1 step more and argue that poor people are oppressed. It was hard being poor in the past but it's harder today and will get worst under Harris and Biden.

It has always been the same.

To quote Noam Chomsky; "The country was founded on the principle that the primary role of government is to protect property from the majority, and so it remains."

To the untrained eye America seems like an intrinsically racist place when in reality the discrimination runs along economic lines and always has, even when African Americans were denied their civil rights, there were poor white people (usually the ones who'd didn't want civil rights from African Americans because being "above" them in society was the only prestige they ever had) and so it remains today.

Biafranlivemat

Foxtrol wrote: »

So overall are black families significantly poorer than white because of something inherently wrong with them or is it a systematic issue?

It is not systematic issue.
Behavior and Attitude, are the problems.

Biafranlivemat

AbusesToilets wrote: »

It's both. There is historical discrimination that led to present day circumstances, redlining, denial of banking resources. These played into having less property ownership and resulting lower wealth generation. They also mean poorer schools etc.

There are also cultural issues that seem persistent among blacks, relating to education and employment.

Historical discrimination. Happened in the past, and day by day it is further in the past.

I have never heard any nationalists in the north blame their own problems today, on the fact that their grandparents didn't get "one man,one vote" in the 1960's.

Biafranlivemat

Foxtrol wrote: »

If you believe it has nothing to do with race then why is there such a huge disparity in wealth of an average white and black family? Are they just unlucky to have ended up poor?

My parents have told me, that up to half the homeless population in London in the early 70's were Irish.
Was that because of Racism or Discrimination ?
or the fact that 90% of the homeless Irish were hopeless alcoholics.

Biafranlivemat

AbusesToilets wrote: »

So, to again tackle the question that's been unaddressed, do Brian? and other posters feel there is a disparity in the numbers in police shootings?

Are blacks over represented?

Are whites under/ over/ or correctly represented?

Are such numbers reflective of the overall trend in crime?

What are the numbers for police shootings of Hispanics and Asians.

Biafranlivemat

Foxtrol wrote: »

I've already stated my opinion, the data regarding police shooting and other brutality is complete garbage and designed to be that way.

Either way, the discussion is a complete distraction when it comes to solutions. The BLM movement isn't asking for police reform for black people only, so even if you can prove that the police are brutalising all races equally it doesn't change what they are calling for regarding police reform will help all races.

"brutalising"
That is a crazy word to use.
It is 2020, not the Falls Curfew of 1970.

Biafranlivemat

Foxtrol wrote: »

All police data is garbage when it comes to acts of violence by police officers and I've been saying it for months. It has been accepted many times by the US government and even law enforcement agencies themselves.

In the research you keep going back to, they repeatedly state it and even highlight it in their abstract, which you just posted.

You don't like Police data, but like the FBI data.

AbusesToilets

Biafranlivemat wrote: »

What are the numbers for police shootings of Hispanics and Asians.

Foxtrol

Biafranlivemat wrote: »

Nothing in those links, show US police organizing, weather official or unofficial into forming Death Squads and then carrying out attacks.


I'm against the police looking like the RUC of 1969 ie PD's having armored cars.

How about straight up bombing residential black areas?

https://twitter.com/ajplus/status/1327272009831772163?s=20

Foxtrol

Biafranlivemat wrote: »

"brutalising"
That is a crazy word to use.
It is 2020, not the Falls Curfew of 1970.

How do you describe police choking or beating civilians to death? Happy to use whatever term makes you feel more comfortable

Foxtrol

Biafranlivemat wrote: »

You don't like Police data, but like the FBI data.

You clearly have no idea about the subject. The FBI data uses police data. It is all garbage, with the least worst being a collection of data gathered by some newspapers.

Again, the quote from that research document describes the FBI data as:

Until recently, the only nationwide data on FOIS was compiled yearly in the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) Uniform Crime Report. On a voluntary basis, departments report the number of justifiable homicides by on-duty law-enforcement officers. Not only are these shootings underreported (by ∼50%; ref. 2), such reports do not provide information about the officers or circumstances surrounding these shootings.

Foxtrol

nullzero wrote: »

Racist policies historically, not currently.

Policing doesn't come down heavier on poorer communities, the law comes down heavier on crimes typically committed by people from poorer backgrounds, thanks to the 1994 crime Bill, most notably the 100:1 ratio difference in sentencing for possession of Crack cocaine (what poor people take) compared to powder cocaine (what rich people take).

You are incorrect to say I believe the things you mentioned above, and the rest of the post, to me isn't grounded in reality.

Once again you're now claiming that you never said what everyone can see you say a few posts ago (see below for a direct quote the opposite of the bolded above). I gave you the benefit of the doubt after you did it a few times earlier but it seems like it is a consistent thing you do. I'm done with trying to converse with someone who is clearly coming from either a bad faith or completely deluded position.

nullzero wrote: »

...a system which is set up to come down heavier on poorer people

nullzero

Foxtrol wrote: »

Once again you're now claiming that you never said what everyone can see you say a few posts ago (see below for a direct quote the opposite of the bolded above). I gave you the benefit of the doubt after you did it a few times earlier but it seems like it is a consistent thing you do. I'm done with trying to converse with someone who is clearly coming from either a bad faith or completely deluded position.

You're confusing the word "system" with the word "policing".

I expanded on what I meant and I haven't gone back on anything I've said. I spoke about "a system which is set up to come down heavier on poorer people". The police do not sentence the people they arrest, you do understand this I take it? The system consists of more than just the police, the judiciary are responsible for the sentencing that disproportionately effects African Americans, I don't see you clamoring for judiciary reform, or complaining about racist judges.

And you accuse me of posting in bad faith(you inferred earlier that I believed the RUC set up internment camps when I said nothing of the sort, what was your motivation for saying that exactly?) in yet you yourself are engaging in seemingly endless ****housery with both myself and other posters.

If you are going to attempt to be smug at least read what you're attempting to dismiss carefully in future.

If you're done trying to converse with me I'll welcome that assertion, best of luck to you.

Foxtrol

Looks like the loser parade eventually got the trouble they went looking for yesterday. Hopefully there'll be arrests on the trouble makers on both sides. Right wing propagandists are however out in force now with the usual selectively edited videos. I really can't believe some people continue to fall for it

Biafranlivemat

Foxtrol wrote: »

How about straight up bombing residential black areas?

https://twitter.com/ajplus/status/1327272009831772163?s=20

Well the police didn't start bombing for no reason.
There was an armed standoff with police at a building.
The Police lobbed tear gas canisters at the building
The people inside fired at the police, starting a huge Gun Battle.


With the gun battle not working, the police decided to drop 2 1LB bombs on a fortified, bunker-like cubicle on the roof of the house.



I accidentally "liked" the post

Foxtrol

Biafranlivemat wrote: »

Well the police didn't start bombing for no reason.
There was an armed standoff with police at a building.
The Police lobbed tear gas canisters at the building
The people inside fired at the police, starting a huge Gun Battle.

With the gun battle not working, the police decided to drop 2 1LB bombs on a fortified, bunker-like cubicle on the roof of the house.

I accidentally "liked" the post

Ah, come on. That is utter apologist nonsense.

If during one of the many armed standoffs in the north, the RUC chose to drop a bomb on a house knowing there were 5 children in it and then stood back and watched 250 Catholics houses burn we'd never forget or try to excuse it.

I'd say you'd be the first person to push back if someone tried to use the same twisted logic as you've just done to excuse RUC actions, claiming that when normal policing 'wasn't working' they were entitled to do whatever they wanted.

Foxtrol

Foxtrol wrote: »

Looks like the loser parade eventually got the trouble they went looking for yesterday. Hopefully there'll be arrests on the trouble makers on both sides. Right wing propagandists are however out in force now with the usual selectively edited videos. I really can't believe some people continue to fall for it

Seeing as it appears right wing media and personalities are still complaining about the lack of coverage of the violence at the weekend, I wanted to point out an example of what I was talking about regarding selectively edited videos.

Below is a video retweeted by a 'journalist' that is known to work with right wing groups to set up attacks and film responses, only to then paint the right wing group as the victim of unprovoked attacks. This has been distributed widely by all right wing circles, including by Trump. In this situation the guy that got knocked out is seen in the full length video to have attacked a guy with a bull horn followed by assaulting multiple people, including women, before eventually getting knocked out. They don't care about any sort of context because they know most viewers just read the headline and believe that it accurately describes what happened.

https://twitter.com/donmoyn/status/1327845592488435714?s=20

nullzero

Foxtrol wrote: »

Seeing as it appears right wing media and personalities are still complaining about the lack of coverage of the violence at the weekend, I wanted to point out an example of what I was talking about regarding selectively edited videos.

Below is a video retweeted by a 'journalist' that is known to work with right wing groups to set up attacks and film responses, only to then paint the right wing group as the victim of unprovoked attacks. This has been distributed widely by all right wing circles, including by Trump. In this situation the guy that got knocked out is seen in the full length video to have attacked a guy with a bull horn followed by assaulting multiple people, including women, before eventually getting knocked out. They don't care about any sort of context because they know most viewers just read the headline and believe that it accurately describes what happened.

https://twitter.com/donmoyn/status/1327845592488435714?s=20

Two wrongs make a right now?

The guy begins by shoving someone to the ground, then he's punched in the back of the head and has his head stamped on whilst he's on the ground, his phone is also stolen by another person.

What does this tell us?

If you need clarification I'll spell it out for you; neither side can claim the moral high ground in this situation. Both "sides" acted in a disgusting manner and if you're trying to paint this as some sort of morally righteous response on the part of the BLM/Antifa brigade you're missing the point that everyone involved here should be ashamed of themselves.

Mic 1972

the woke culture is really destroying our society. People are indoctrinated into identifying themselves as members of specific categories and acting in defense of their own group. None is allowed to use their own mind. They are all programmed to hate on one another.

Foxtrol

Mic 1972 wrote: »

the woke culture is really destroying our society. People are indoctrinated into identifying themselves as members of specific categories and acting in defense of their own group. None is allowed to use their own mind. They are all programmed to hate on one another.

What does 'woke culture' has to do with anything? It is clear that there were gangs on both extremes walking the streets of DC doing exactly what you claim.

Here are a group of proud boys gathered beside the washington monument chanting the name of a guy who travelled with a gun breaking curfew and killed/murdered two people while claiming to be acting in 'defense' of his own group.

https://twitter.com/girlsreallyrule/status/1327997638957031434?s=20

Biafranlivemat

Foxtrol wrote: »

Ah, come on. That is utter apologist nonsense.

If during one of the many armed standoffs in the north, the RUC chose to drop a bomb on a house knowing there were 5 children in it and then stood back and watched 250 Catholics houses burn we'd never forget or try to excuse it.

I'd say you'd be the first person to push back if someone tried to use the same twisted logic as you've just done to excuse RUC actions, claiming that when normal policing 'wasn't working' they were entitled to do whatever they wanted.

When I read about what happen in Philadelphia, the Waco siege and the FBI popped into my head, not the RUC.

Biafranlivemat

Foxtrol wrote: »

Looks like the loser parade eventually got the trouble they went looking for yesterday. Hopefully there'll be arrests on the trouble makers on both sides. Right wing propagandists are however out in force now with the usual selectively edited videos. I really can't believe some people continue to fall for it

The line "Looks like the loser parade eventually got the trouble they went looking for yesterday."
If you don't mind, I'll keep that line, I am sure I can use it in the future.;)

Biafranlivemat

Mic 1972 wrote: »

the woke culture is really destroying our society. People are indoctrinated into identifying themselves as members of specific categories and acting in defense of their own group. None is allowed to use their own mind. They are all programmed to hate on one another.

It is worst than that. When people, don't agree 100% with the so called "peaceful mob" they are identified by the people of "love and Tolerance" as Hitler or Nazis etc

V8 Interceptor

I'm still somewhat confused as to why Irish people during the Summer decided to march in their hundreds (thousands?) over a guy that died in Police custody in the USA. At the time I put it down to Corona fatigue. So many folk bolted up in their homes kinda just needed any reason to get out on the streets and mingle with other people. It still seemed daft though.

Retr0gamer

V8 Interceptor wrote: »

I'm still somewhat confused as to why Irish people during the Summer decided to march in their hundreds (thousands?) over a guy that died in Police custody in the USA. At the time I put it down to Corona fatigue. So many folk bolted up in their homes kinda just needed any reason to get out on the streets and mingle with other people. It still seemed daft though.

Showing solidarity to people that are denied basic human compassion.

I think that's worth marching for. Especially with the likes of Gemma O'Doherty and her ilk/followers trying to stoke racism and hate in this country.

Foxtrol

Biafranlivemat wrote: »

It is worst than that. When people, don't agree 100% with the so called "peaceful mob" they are identified by the people of "love and Tolerance" as Hitler or Nazis etc

Well they choose to march and associate themselves with the likes of the proud boys what do you expect, a group which US Intelligence has called a 'white supremacist gang'?

Here is just one of many terrible signs during the protest (caught by Fox News of all places)

https://twitter.com/MattGertz/status/1327716309782695936?s=20