Police shootings, vigilante shootings, and Black Lives Matter

nullzero

Potatoeman wrote: »

There are probably plenty of black people against the BLM movements agenda to defund the police. I can’t imagine living in a high crime area and seeing this as a good idea.

And they get called Uncle Tom's for their trouble, or race traitors. What they are is people with opinions like everyone else who don't need to be instructed how the think, because their skin colour isn't the most defining aspect of their existence.

nullzero

Brian? wrote: »

Defunding the police doesn't mean dismantling the police. Defunding the police is a method of forcing reform in police departments.

How does removing police funding in for example a high crime area achieve something positive? Walk us through it.

Potatoeman

Brian? wrote: »

Defunding the police doesn't mean dismantling the police. Defunding the police is a method of forcing reform in police departments.

Wouldn’t that cost more money for training etc..?

Carfacemandog

Potatoeman wrote: »

There are probably plenty of black people against the BLM movements agenda to defund the police. I can’t imagine living in a high crime area and seeing this as a good idea.

You should check out Camden and Newark, who both did this while extremely high crimes areas and have had something like 40 and 50% reductions in the decade since.

One (I think Camden) defunded, while the other disbanded. Both have far better functioning police departments and subsequent drops in crime as a result.

Brussels Sprout

Brian? wrote: »

Defunding the police doesn't mean dismantling the police. Defunding the police is a method of forcing reform in police departments.

Absolutely. It's such a dreadful name for what it actually envisages

“Defund the police” means reallocating or redirecting funding away from the police department to other government agencies funded by the local municipality. That’s it. It’s that simple. Defund does not mean abolish policing. And, even some who say abolish, do not necessarily mean to do away with law enforcement altogether. Rather, they want to see the rotten trees of policing chopped down and fresh roots replanted anew.

....

Data show that 9 out of 10 calls for service are for nonviolent encounters. Now, this does not mean that an incident will not turn violent, but police at times contribute to the escalation of violent force. Police officers’ skillset and training are often out of sync with the social interactions that they have. Police officers are mostly trained in use-of-force tactics and worst-case scenarios to reduce potential threats. However, most of their interactions with civilians start with a conversation.

Advocates for the defund movement like Phillip McHarris and Thenjiwe McHarris argue that shifting funding to social services that can improve things such as mental health, addiction, and homelessness is a better use of taxpayer money. This approach further enhances the push to decriminalize and destigmatize people with mental health conditions and addiction problems. Ever since the overcriminalization of people addicted to crack cocaine in the 1990s, some scholars, practitioners, and policymakers have said that this shift is long overdue.

link

I read recently that a national survey found that a majority of people were in favour of this when it was explained to them without using the actual label "Defund the Police".

It's basically as toxic as "ObamaCare" was a decade ago.

Foxtrol

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Absolutely. It's such a dreadful name for what it actually envisages

link

I read recently that a national survey found that a majority of people were in favour of this when it was explained to them without using the actual label "Defund the Police".

It's basically as toxic as "ObamaCare" was a decade ago.

'Defund the police' is probably the worst branding of a policy that I've ever seen.

It is so bad that even when you explain it to people they'll come back with 'that isn't what it means' because they've imagined a world without any type of law enforcement.

Brian?

nullzero wrote: »

How does removing police funding in for example a high crime area achieve something positive? Walk us through it.

I don't need to walk you through it. It's actually been done with a very positive effect, as is pointed out above.

It means replacing the current toxic police hierarchy with a new one. A root and branch restructuring. In fairness, this is pretty easy to find for yourself with a quick Google. I don't understand why it's so misunderstood

Foxtrol

nullzero wrote: »

Can you provide evidence to support the idea of systemic racism in American police forces?
Some official document where this systemic racism and how it should be implemented is outlined for all officers?

Stop and frisk, the over a dozen government consent decrees that were place on police departments...

Or some sort of recording obtained by any means where senior police officials have outlined their hatred of all black people and their plans to victimise them.
Surely there is evidence of the systemic racism beyond how police are perceived to behave?

https://twitter.com/People4Bernie/status/1299005971025412097?s=20

https://twitter.com/greg_doucette/status/1300287103738281986?s=20

As for the RUC reference, there is really no comparison between the structure and behaviour of the RUC during the civil rights movement in Northern Ireland and the false perception of systemic anti black discrimination in modern day American police forces.

I'm still waiting for you or anyone else to provide a list of things that you believe the RUC did that you believe there isn't evidence of US cops doing similar. The lack of response says it all.

Foxtrol

Potatoeman wrote: »

There are probably plenty of black people against the BLM movements agenda to defund the police. I can’t imagine living in a high crime area and seeing this as a good idea.

Northern Ireland really has gone to hell since they reformed policing... :rolleyes:

nullzero

Foxtrol wrote: »

Stop and frisk, the over a dozen government consent decrees that were place on police departments...



https://twitter.com/People4Bernie/status/1299005971025412097?s=20

https://twitter.com/greg_doucette/status/1300287103738281986?s=20



I'm still waiting for you or anyone else to provide a list of things that you believe the RUC did that you believe there isn't evidence of US cops doing similar. The lack of response says it all.

Stop and frisk isn't "stop and frisk black people only" another red herring.

The Kenosha sheriff made a stupid statement, but it was hardly a racist diatribe.

The Sheriff in Arkansas is clearly a racist and "resigned" (allowed to jump rather than be pushed, I personally wouldn't have given him that luxury), which shows that overt racism, even in a place like Arkansas isn't tolerated from law enforcement.

As evidence for nationwide systemic racism in all American police departments and law enforcement agencies in general goes, this isn't exactly blowing any body's hair back.

The other tweet about something happening in Portland, didn't give a whole lot of detail, sounds dreadfully wrong whatever occurred.

Why you haven't been furnished with a list relating to the RUC in relation to the perceived systemic racism is because comparing modern day America with Northern Ireland 50 years ago isn't reasonable. Northern Ireland was embroiled in what was ostensibly a war, that isn't the case in America, and while the RUC did indeed behave in an immoral manner, what they did isn't comparable with what's happening in America at the moment. I don't see internment camps for African Americans in the States now for instance, do you? Black people can get jobs and buy homes in America, was that the case for all Catholics in Northern Ireland before the civil rights movement and during the troubles?
The two situations are nothing like each other, surely you can understand that.

Foxtrol

nullzero wrote: »

Stop and frisk isn't "stop and frisk black people only" another red herring.

It was found to unfairly target non-white people.

The Kenosha sheriff made a stupid statement, but it was hardly a racist diatribe.

The Sheriff in Arkansas is clearly a racist and "resigned" (allowed to jump rather than be pushed, I personally wouldn't have given him that luxury), which shows that overt racism, even in a place like Arkansas isn't tolerated from law enforcement.

As evidence for nationwide systemic racism in all American police departments and law enforcement agencies in general goes, this isn't exactly blowing any body's hair back.

The other tweet about something happening in Portland, didn't give a whole lot of detail, sounds dreadfully wrong whatever occurred.

You asked for recordings of 'senior police officials' and I provided them. I'm not surprised that you don't show any concern even when provided with evidence.

Why you haven't been furnished with a list relating to the RUC in relation to the perceived systemic racism is because comparing modern day America with Northern Ireland 50 years ago isn't reasonable.

US Cops were doing terrible things 50 years ago as well. They weren't reformed and are still doing terrible things today, unlike the PSNI who are a night and day better force.

Northern Ireland was embroiled in what was ostensibly a war, that isn't the case in America, and while the RUC did indeed behave in an immoral manner, what they did isn't comparable with what's happening in America at the moment. I don't see internment camps for African Americans in the States now for instance, do you?

Are you claiming the RUC created internment camps? That was a political decision, which there are plenty of as bad or worse ones in the US. How about putting longer sentences on the black community drug of choice compared to the white community?

Black people can get jobs and buy homes in America, was that the case for all Catholics in Northern Ireland before the civil rights movement and during the troubles?

Again, nothing to do with the RUC. If you want to go down that route, even after civil rights in the US black families weren't able to buy or rent houses due to redlining. To this day Trump fear mongers against black people having the opportunity to move to the suburbs, which leads to police stops and murders of black people in these suburban areas.

The two situations are nothing like each other, surely you can understand that.

It is completely comparable. There is a two tier policing system in the US, just like there was in the north, be it police stops and their outcomes, police tactics, police equipment etc. There is also evidence of overlap between cops and far right groups/militias, just like there was similar connections between the RUC and Loyalist groups.

As pointed out above, you've failed completely in providing examples of the RUC actions that the US cops haven't done. Instead you've just provided other random facts during the troubles. Interested in you actually answering the question this time and pointing to actions of the RUC that there isn't evidence of US cops doing similar.

nullzero

Foxtrol wrote: »

It was found to unfairly target non-white people.



You asked for recordings of 'senior police officials' and I provided them. I'm not surprised that you don't show any concern even when provided with evidence.



US Cops were doing terrible things 50 years ago as well. They weren't reformed and are still doing terrible things today, unlike the PSNI who are a night and day better force.



Are you claiming the RUC created internment camps? That was a political decision, which there are plenty of as bad or worse ones in the US. How about putting longer sentences on the black community drug of choice compared to the white community?



Again, nothing to do with the RUC. If you want to go down that route, even after civil rights in the US black families weren't able to buy or rent houses due to redlining. To this day Trump fear mongers against black people having the opportunity to move to the suburbs, which leads to police stops and murders of black people in these suburban areas.



It is completely comparable. There is a two tier policing system in the US, just like there was in the north, be it police stops and their outcomes, police tactics, police equipment etc. There is also evidence of overlap between cops and far right groups/militias, just like there was similar connections between the RUC and Loyalist groups.

As pointed out above, you've failed completely in providing examples of the RUC actions that the US cops haven't done. Instead you've just provided other random facts during the troubles. Interested in you actually answering the question this time and pointing to actions of the RUC that there isn't evidence of US cops doing similar.

Firstly, point out where I said that the RUC created internment camps please, because we both know I didn't say it. Yet again you twist people's words to suit yourself.
That is posting in bad faith, and to be completely honest it's utter ****housery of the lowest order.

I asked for recordings of senior police stating that they are implementing a systemically racist policy against black people. You didn't provide that. I took what you provided on merit and addressed it and did not make excuses for the things the people involved said and condemned them for what they said.

There is no comparison between Northern Ireland during the troubles and modern day America. You saying there is doesn't circumvent the blindingly obvious fact that the two situations bear no resemblance to each other. During the Civil rights movement in America, the people of that time had a lot in common with the people of Northern Ireland at that time. But to compare troubles era northern Ireland with modern day America isn't reasonable, no matter how annoyed you get by it.
If you want to list off the many similarities between the RUC and modern American police forces go ahead and list them. If they are so obvious you shouldn't have any trouble doing so.

And if you want to bring up longer sentences for crimes typically committed by poorer and often black people, let's not forget the 1994 crime Bill that the Democrats (supposed friends of the supposedly downtrodden) introduced. Yet another example of how ridiculous the American political divide actually is.

I'll give you this, I think it's disgraceful that so many black men are in prison serving longer sentences than they should, it needs to be addressed, and I've spoken about the prison industrial complex on this site in the past and how amoral it is.

Foxtrol

nullzero wrote: »

Firstly, point out where I said that the RUC created internment camps please, because we both know I didn't say it. Yet again you twist people's words to suit yourself.
That is posting in bad faith, and to be completely honest it's utter ****housery of the lowest order.

I asked a specific question, not for the first time, about the RUC and you tried to move goal posts to talk about internment camps and housing. I’m not sure why it offends you that I pointed this out. You still haven't been able to answer my original question.

I asked for recordings of senior police stating that they are implementing a systemically racist policy against black people. You didn't provide that. I took what you provided on merit and addressed it and did not make excuses for the things the people involved said and condemned them for what they said.

There is no comparison between Northern Ireland during the troubles and modern day America. You saying there is doesn't circumvent the blindingly obvious fact that the two situations bear no resemblance to each other. During the Civil rights movement in America, the people of that time had a lot in common with the people of Northern Ireland at that time. But to compare troubles era northern Ireland with modern day America isn't reasonable, no matter how annoyed you get by it.
If you want to list off the many similarities between the RUC and modern American police forces go ahead and list them. If they are so obvious you shouldn't have any trouble doing so.

And if you want to bring up longer sentences for crimes typically committed by poorer and often black people, let's not forget the 1994 crime Bill that the Democrats (supposed friends of the supposedly downtrodden) introduced. Yet another example of how ridiculous the American political divide actually is.

I'll give you this, I think it's disgraceful that so many black men are in prison serving longer sentences than they should, it needs to be addressed, and I've spoken about the prison industrial complex on this site in the past and how amoral it is.

I’m not comparing life in Northern Ireland during the troubles and to life in modern day America, I’m comparing the activities of the police in both jurisdictions. Both had terrible histories, however one faced complete reform due to it and is now widely praised, while the other did not reform and appears nearly as rotten as ever.

You still failed to list any activities that the RUC carried out that there isn't evidence that US cops have been involved in similar and never reformed. It seems like you aren't able to provide anything.

As for asking me to list out some similarities, I already have:

Foxtrol wrote: »

It is completely comparable. There is a two tier policing system in the US, just like there was in the north, be it police stops and their outcomes, police tactics, police equipment etc. There is also evidence of overlap between cops and far right groups/militias, just like there was similar connections between the RUC and Loyalist groups.

Biafranlivemat

Foxtrol wrote: »

Many black people in America would have a very different opinion to you.

So you are saying many black people in America don't know, what they are talking about.

nullzero

Foxtrol wrote: »

I asked a specific question, not for the first time, about the RUC and you tried to move goal posts to talk about internment camps and housing. I’m not sure why it offends you that I pointed this out. You still haven't been able to answer my original question.



I’m not comparing life in Northern Ireland during the troubles and to life in modern day America, I’m comparing the activities of the police in both jurisdictions. Both had terrible histories, however one faced complete reform due to it and is now widely praised, while the other did not reform and appears nearly as rotten as ever.

You still failed to list any activities that the RUC carried out that there isn't evidence that US cops have been involved in similar and never reformed. It seems like you aren't able to provide anything.

As for asking me to list out some similarities, I already have:

Why do you keep asking me about the RUC if you've already listed everything you feel is relevant? I haven't moved any goalposts here. You invoked the history of the RUC and went on to demand I provide information you now say you've already provided. The mind boggles. This whole RUC debate is your baby, you brought it up I outlined why I feel its a poor comparison to modern day America and you keep demanding I provide information to satiate your need to validate your own (in my opinion) flawed theory.

We're not going to agree on this and it's going nowhere so we'll just have to agree to disagree on that issue.

I find it interesting that you keep this discussion going but sidestep the fact that the links you provided do not prove a nationwide conspiracy against African Americans carried out by all police forces in America.

Brian?

nullzero wrote: »

Why do you keep asking me about the RUC if you've already listed everything you feel is relevant? I haven't moved any goalposts here. You invoked the history of the RUC and went on to demand I provide information you now say you've already provided. The mind boggles. This whole RUC debate is your baby, you brought it up I outlined why I feel its a poor comparison to modern day America and you keep demanding I provide information to satiate your need to validate your own (in my opinion) flawed theory.

We're not going to agree on this and it's going nowhere so we'll just have to agree to disagree on that issue.

I find it interesting that you keep this discussion going but sidestep the fact that the links you provided do not prove a nationwide conspiracy against African Americans carried out by all police forces in America.

I find it interesting that you have now side stepped the discussion about per capita statistic and your complete misunderstanding of what defunding the police mean.

Foxtrol

Biafranlivemat wrote: »

So you are saying many black people in America don't know, what they are talking about.

Seeing as you again appear to believe you 'know what you're talking about', I'm still waiting on that list of actions that you believe the RUC took that there is no evidence of US cops doing similar.

nullzero

Brian? wrote: »

I find it interesting that you have now side stepped the discussion about per capita statistic and your complete misunderstanding of what defunding the police mean.

It's also interesting that you and other posters haven't stated that the defunding of police forces isn't always a rousing success. But by all means sidestep the nuance of reality and state everything that chimes with your worldview as an uncontestable fact.

As for the per capita stats, it is something we're not going to agree upon, I accept the multiple nuanced factors feeding into it whilst you see pure racism and little else.

Foxtrol

nullzero wrote: »

Why do you keep asking me about the RUC if you've already listed everything you feel is relevant? I haven't moved any goalposts here. You invoked the history of the RUC and went on to demand I provide information you now say you've already provided. The mind boggles. This whole RUC debate is your baby, you brought it up I outlined why I feel its a poor comparison to modern day America and you keep demanding I provide information to satiate your need to validate your own (in my opinion) flawed theory.

We're not going to agree on this and it's going nowhere so we'll just have to agree to disagree on that issue.

I find it interesting that you keep this discussion going but sidestep the fact that the links you provided do not prove a nationwide conspiracy against African Americans carried out by all police forces in America.

This is what happened:

1) I likened the actions of the US police forces to the RUC and then provided examples, which you didn't try to refute.

2) You and another poster strongly disagreed with the comparison, telling me I didn't know what I was talking about.

3) I repeatedly asked both of you for examples to why you believe it was a poor comparison and you both fail to provide anything.

There is no point in even trying to continue a discussion with posters that are repeatedly unable to back up their point of view. What you're doing is akin to saying the sky is green and then saying 'agree to disagree'. If you can't backup your opinion we're done here.

AbusesToilets

Brian? wrote: »

I find it interesting that you have now side stepped the discussion about per capita statistic and your complete misunderstanding of what defunding the police mean.

Brian, do you think black people are over represented in the numbers of police shootings?

Do you think white people are over/ under/ just right in the same?

How you do square the fact that more black people are shot by non-white officers with what I understand is your view that policing is systemically racist?

Biafranlivemat

Foxtrol wrote: »

Actually I'm really interested in which activities Biafranlivemat believes the RUC got up to that there aren't examples of cops in the US being involved in

Well for starters, I can't think of any black neighborhood, been invaded by Police and Auxiliary police (B specials) and the use of armored cars firing indiscriminately.




Than there is the The Glenanne Gang, alone they were responsible for up to 120 murders. The equivalent in the US would be about 8000 murdered, in 4 year period.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenanne_gang


RUC collusion, hundreds of innocent people shot, based on their suspected political leanings.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=ruc+collusion&t=ffsb&atb=v244-6&ia=web


The RUC allies, British military intelligence collusion.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=British+military+intelligence+collusion++northern+ireland&t=ffsb&atb=v244-6&ia=web

nullzero

Foxtrol wrote: »

This is what happened:

1) I likened the actions of the US police forces to the RUC and then provided examples, which you didn't try to refute.

2) You and another poster strongly disagreed with the comparison, telling me I didn't know what I was talking about.

3) I repeatedly asked both of you for examples to why you believe it was a poor comparison and you both fail to provide anything.

There is no point in even trying to continue a discussion with posters that are repeatedly unable to back up their point of view. What you're doing is akin to saying the sky is green and then saying 'agree to disagree'. If you can't backup your opinion we're done here.

I repeatedly gave detailed reasons for why i feel comparing troubles era northern Ireland with modern day America isn't a reasonable proposition.

During the 1960s there were direct comparisons between the plight of Nationalists in northern Ireland African Americans.

Both places have moved on, the rights of both groups have been recognised and rightly so.
Modern day America is in no way like troubles era northern Ireland. The reason I can state this as fact is that there is no nationwide systemic system of racial oppression being carried out by all police forces in America, you haven't been able to provide evidence of such a conspiracy as it doesn't exist.

As we can't agree on these points I'm happy to say we're better off agreeing to disagree.

You are too narcissistic to recognise that reasonable arguments have been made on both sides and that I have in fact taken the time to address what you've said. You don't like what I'm saying so you accuse me of not addressing the points you're making. This is yet more bad faith posting and you know well that it is such.

Biafranlivemat

Brian? wrote: »

Defunding the police doesn't mean dismantling the police. Defunding the police is a method of forcing reform in police departments.

The reform I see, is to root out the many corrupt cops.


Your idea of "reform" is to have every police force, taking orders from the bLM mob.

Brian?

nullzero wrote: »

It's also interesting that you and other posters haven't stated that the defunding of police forces isn't always a rousing success. But by all means sidestep the nuance of reality and state everything that chimes with your worldview as an uncontestable fact.

As for the per capita stats, it is something we're not going to agree upon, I accept the multiple nuanced factors feeding into it whilst you see pure racism and little else.

Another thing I find interesting is how you fill in the gaps in my posts with little mind for what I have actually posted.

I never said defunding the police was always a success, but that it had been a success in the past and that it didn’t mean what you thought it meant. Which you have yet to admit you were wrong about.

Ignoring per capita statistics isn’t just something you can hand wave away as a difference of opinion. You’re choosing not to accept them as a reasonable argument because they conflict with your position. I don’t see pure racism and never said it was pure racism, that’s something you’ve added on your own. A straw man.

Brian?

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Brian, do you think black people are over represented in the numbers of police shootings?

Do you think white people are over/ under/ just right in the same?

How you do square the fact that more black people are shot by non-white officers with what I understand is your view that policing is systemically racist?

Old ground. These have all been asked and answered.

Brian?

Biafranlivemat wrote: »

The reform I see, is to root out the many corrupt cops.


Your idea of "reform" is to have every police force, taking orders from the bLM mob.

So you agree defunding the police can work well?

My idea of reform is to make BLM redundant by eliminating the issue. You’re notion of my idea is some nonsense you just made up.

nullzero

Brian? wrote: »

Another thing I find interesting is how you fill in the gaps in my posts with little mind for what I have actually posted.

I never said defunding the police was always a success, but that it had been a success in the past and that it didn’t mean what you thought it meant. Which you have yet to admit you were wrong about.

Ignoring per capita statistics isn’t just something you can hand wave away as a difference of opinion. You’re choosing not to accept them as a reasonable argument because they conflict with your position. I don’t see pure racism and never said it was pure racism, that’s something you’ve added on your own. A straw man.

So what do you propose then Brian?

There is systemic racism in all American police forces sometimes and not others? It either exists or it doesn't.

There was a number of posts made earlier that were extolling the virtue of defunding. As usual any sense of nuance was abandoned and only the possible positives were discussed.

I asked about defunding police in high crime areas, I should have included the caveat of situations where the social programmes that are typically linked to defunding programmes could or would not tend to be successful. I didn't provide enough detail in my question, my apologies.

In the end we're all capable of sidestepping issues that relate to arguments we make, but are we gracious enough to recognise that we are not infallible?

Biafranlivemat

Carfacemandog wrote: »

You should check out Camden and newark , who both did this while extremely high crimes areas and have had something like 40 and 50% reductions in the decade since.

One (I think Camden) defunded, while the other disbanded. Both have far better functioning police departments and subsequent drops in crime as a result.

The city of Camden NJ, due to money issues and union busting and Police corruption disbanded the old police force, and created a new one, in it's place.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camden_Police_Department_(defunct)


Newark NJ, it seems, there was only a reorganization of the PD.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newark_Police_Department_(New_Jersey)

Biafranlivemat

Foxtrol wrote: »

Northern Ireland really has gone to hell since they reformed policing... :rolleyes:

There was more than just Police reform in the GFA

Biafranlivemat

Foxtrol wrote: »

It was found to unfairly target non-white people.



You asked for recordings of 'senior police officials' and I provided them. I'm not surprised that you don't show any concern even when provided with evidence.



US Cops were doing terrible things 50 years ago as well. They weren't reformed and are still doing terrible things today, unlike the PSNI who are a night and day better force.



Are you claiming the RUC created internment camps? That was a political decision, which there are plenty of as bad or worse ones in the US. How about putting longer sentences on the black community drug of choice compared to the white community?



Again, nothing to do with the RUC. If you want to go down that route, even after civil rights in the US black families weren't able to buy or rent houses due to redlining. To this day Trump fear mongers against black people having the opportunity to move to the suburbs, which leads to police stops and murders of black people in these suburban areas.



It is completely comparable. There is a two tier policing system in the US, just like there was in the north, be it police stops and their outcomes, police tactics, police equipment etc. There is also evidence of overlap between cops and far right groups/militias, just like there was similar connections between the RUC and Loyalist groups.

As pointed out above, you've failed completely in providing examples of the RUC actions that the US cops haven't done. Instead you've just provided other random facts during the troubles. Interested in you actually answering the question this time and pointing to actions of the RUC that there isn't evidence of US cops doing similar.

Trump was only elected 4 years ago, but you are blaming him for the problem.


Only speaking about the suburbs of Boston, These very Liberal, Biden voting towns have not rolled out the red carpet for poor blacks to move into.
WHY?