Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nobody cares enough to make much of a fuss about it.
It is now a 'moment of reflection" aimed at all, not just RCers.

For something that nobody cares about, you have put an awful lot of effort over the last few pages into defending.

Something doesn't add up.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

For something that nobody cares about, you have put an awful lot of effort over the last few pages into defending.

Something doesn't add up.

I am defending the cohesiveness of society in the south blanch. downcow has put his foot in it again and has shown that there lies the difference. He didn't realise that all the main faiths are happy for the tradition to continue.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I am defending the cohesiveness of society in the south blanch. downcow has put his foot in it again and has shown that there lies the difference. He didn't realise that all the main faiths are happy for the tradition to continue.

In fairness, that is a bit of a lie, as John Bull is still in effect still practised in the South. The ROI was not exactly a welcoming place for protestants after the WOI.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

In fairness, that is a bit of a lie, as John Bull is still in effect still practised in the South. The ROI was not exactly a welcoming place for protestants after the WOI.

Nobody said it was. But the history of Protestantism since Independence is more nuanced. Many references to writing of protestants here where they discuss their own history, are linked to in this thread.
ROI wasn't exactly a welcoming place for many native RC's either. LGBT people and Mother's and babies etc etc. All overseen by the power swap parties as we know.

I think we have coalesced into an inclusive society though.

Granadino

NI, the north, Norn Iron, Northern Ireland, whatever you want to call it, is a disfunctional society. Everything divided along the lines of themuns and usuns. Maybe that suggests before partition, Ireland was a disfunctional country too. Both Ire and the UK are resonsible for enabling the place. While the extreme violence has stopped, every other day on BBC NI radio etc, it's the same old ****e from top to bottom.
If there was an "independent" 6 counties tomorrow, it would still be the same caper.
Funnily enough in the south, you'd still get the comments like "Ah yeah you know John Smith?". "Ah jaysus I do yeah, the fella on the farm down the road? Yeah, sound man". It would often be noted he was a Protestant, without malice, just to somehow highlight he might have had a different Sunday to the rest of the village at mass on a Sunday.
Or "such and such used to work for the Protestant family in Limerick". Again, it was an observation as opposed to being a nasty comment. Still exists, and I wonder if the same type of thing exists in e.g. Oxford? Or Scotland?

downcow

Granadino wrote: »

NI, the north, Norn Iron, Northern Ireland, whatever you want to call it, is a disfunctional society. Everything divided along the lines of themuns and usuns. Maybe that suggests before partition, Ireland was a disfunctional country too. Both Ire and the UK are resonsible for enabling the place. While the extreme violence has stopped, every other day on BBC NI radio etc, it's the same old ****e from top to bottom.
If there was an "independent" 6 counties tomorrow, it would still be the same caper.
Funnily enough in the south, you'd still get the comments like "Ah yeah you know John Smith?". "Ah jaysus I do yeah, the fella on the farm down the road? Yeah, sound man". It would often be noted he was a Protestant, without malice, just to somehow highlight he might have had a different Sunday to the rest of the village at mass on a Sunday.
Or "such and such used to work for the Protestant family in Limerick". Again, it was an observation as opposed to being a nasty comment. Still exists, and I wonder if the same type of thing exists in e.g. Oxford? Or Scotland?

Agree with a fair bit of your post, but don’t fool yourself into think that referring to people as the Protestant farmer ofr the Protestant family is completely benign. I doubt there is any harm meant by it but it evidences the opposite of what Francie is saying.
If you are a big majority and you refer to a person by their minority grouping it is dangerous and not inclusive particularly if it refers to a trait that a war was fought over

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nobody said it was. But the history of Protestantism since Independence is more nuanced. Many references to writing of protestants here where they discuss their own history, are linked to in this thread.
ROI wasn't exactly a welcoming place for many native RC's either. LGBT people and Mother's and babies etc etc. All overseen by the power swap parties as we know.

I think we have coalesced into an inclusive society though.

Is it fair for me to assume that Francie is out of step with most here with regard to him regularly pointing to the writings and comments of some of the Protestants who didn’t feel the need to leave Roi, as evidence that everything is ok.

That would be like me saying that because there is are a few Catholics in our supporters club who say everything is fine, that that means that everything is fine ?

downcow

markodaly wrote: »

In fairness, that is a bit of a lie, as John Bull is still in effect still practised in the South. The ROI was not exactly a welcoming place for protestants after the WOI.

What is John Bull?

Junkyard Tom

I enjoy British culture quite a bit - unionist culture is not British, it's anti-Irish, a counter-culture, and is largely just a display of hatred of the native/gael. British people don't hate Irish people in anywhere near the numbers and viciousness that unionists do.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I enjoy British culture quite a bit - unionist culture is not British, it's anti-Irish, a counter-culture, and is largely just a display of hatred of the native/gael. British people don't hate Irish people in anywhere near the numbers and viciousness that unionists do.

Tell Francie that Tom. He says there is only one culture in Ireland.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Is it fair for me to assume that Francie is out of step with most here with regard to him regularly pointing to the writings and comments of some of the Protestants who didn’t feel the need to leave Roi, as evidence that everything is ok.

That would be like me saying that because there is are a few Catholics in our supporters club who say everything is fine, that that means that everything is fine ?

No downcow, just signs that there is a school of thought (in the Protestant community here) that it wasn't all about being displaced or 'having to leave etc'.
Nuance, in other words, that big blanket statements doesn't recognise.

FrancieBrady

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I enjoy British culture quite a bit - unionist culture is not British, it's anti-Irish, a counter-culture, and is largely just a display of hatred of the native/gael. British people don't hate Irish people in anywhere near the numbers and viciousness that unionists do.

Yes, what distinguishes Unionist culture is that. Everything else, as we seen when downcow eventually outlined his 'culture' is stuff we have in common.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No downcow, just signs that there is a school of thought (in the Protestant community here) that it wasn't all about being displaced or 'having to leave etc'.
Nuance, in other words, that big blanket statements doesn't recognise.

That’s positive that you can do a little nuance. Keep working on developing that side of you.
Earlier you were using big blanket statements about inclusiveness in Irish society. I am pleased you now recognise it is a bit more nuanced than that.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Agree with a fair bit of your post, but don’t fool yourself into think that referring to people as the Protestant farmer ofr the Protestant family is completely benign. I doubt there is any harm meant by it but it evidences the opposite of what Francie is saying.
If you are a big majority and you refer to a person by their minority grouping it is dangerous and not inclusive particularly if it refers to a trait that a war was fought over

Protestants would have gone to protestant schools so that could be an explanation as to why they don't know them. As well as that, farmers would meet up after mass on a Sunday for a chat and maybe a bit of business (such as buying and selling turfbanks). The introduction of marts probably replaced after mass on a Sunday as a social gathering for farmers now.
My next door neighbour is protestant. The only reason I know this is because I went to his father's funeral which was in a protestant church.

Granadino

jm08 wrote: »

Protestants would have gone to protestant schools so that could be an explanation as to why they don't know them. As well as that, farmers would meet up after mass on a Sunday for a chat and maybe a bit of business (such as buying and selling turfbanks). The introduction of marts probably replaced after mass on a Sunday as a social gathering for farmers now.
My next door neighbour is protestant. The only reason I know this is because I went to his father's funeral which was in a protestant church.

Shock horror, I know a Protestant who is a physio for a very successful county GAA team. :eek:
Someone pointing out "the protestant" in a village would be the same as somone pointing out "the German" in the village, or "the Dutchman"....
Same as yourself, I only found out recently a friend of the family was Protestant, when my Dad mentioned when they were kids, they were jealous he didn't have to go to mass.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

That’s positive that you can do a little nuance. Keep working on developing that side of you.
Earlier you were using big blanket statements about inclusiveness in Irish society. I am pleased you now recognise it is a bit more nuanced than that.

It was you who puffed about the Angelus, not getting the 'nuance that all the main churches were quite happy that it continue with RObert Eames positively encouraging it.

What that demonstrates is the success of the south in creating a society were everyone has a say.

You guys had to be forces to give basic rights to people as recently as last year. Why? Because church and state have not been decoupled there yet. The DUP, a fundamentalist, bigoted party (religiously and culturally) still insist on ownership and 'OUR wee country' foot stomping.

downcow

Granadino wrote: »

Shock horror, I know a Protestant who is a physio for a very successful county GAA team. :eek:
Someone pointing out "the protestant" in a village would be the same as somone pointing out "the German" in the village, or "the Dutchman"....
Same as yourself, I only found out recently a friend of the family was Protestant, when my Dad mentioned when they were kids, they were jealous he didn't have to go to mass.

guys try not to be so defensive. I am honestly not accusing you of anything. I have little doubt that you have nothing against Protestants.
I am just saying that from experience living in Northern Ireland, and indeed some knowledge of other areas around the world, referring to people by their religious affiliation is very tricky to say the least. Majorities do not notice what they may be doing by referring to people by their minority status, and it doesn't matter what that minority status is.
The ginger haired bloke
the fat one
the black boy
the Protestant
the catholic
the Moslem
the disabled boy

As I say, it is to say the least tricky.
I certainly make every attempt to avoid doing it.

Now if you must do it, those involved in the equality work would suggest that you always person before the difference eg rather than the 'gay man', it would be preferential to say 'the man who is gay' or 'the boy who has a disability'as opposed to the disabled boy. The theory being that it puts the focus on the person other than the difference.

Anyhow, I'm not too worried, you can go on referring to the 'Jew down the road' or the 'Pakistani who owns the shop' if you wish

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It was you who puffed about the Angelus, not getting the 'nuance that all the main churches were quite happy that it continue with RObert Eames positively encouraging it.

What that demonstrates is the success of the south in creating a society were everyone has a say.

You guys had to be forces to give basic rights to people as recently as last year. Why? Because church and state have not been decoupled there yet. The DUP, a fundamentalist, bigoted party (religiously and culturally) still insist on ownership and 'OUR wee country' foot stomping.

Which party in the North Francie is connected to which church? That you're referring to

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Which party in the North Francie is connected to which church? That you're referring to

The phrase 'church and state' refers to a situation where religious beliefs directs legislation. In a modern inclusive democracy that is discriminatory and when insisted upon, bigoted.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The phrase 'church and state' refers to a situation where religious beliefs directs legislation. In a modern inclusive democracy that is discriminatory and when insisted upon, bigoted.

Francie, I was not looking for a definition of church and state, rather I was keen to have a question answered.

I'll try again. Would you suggest that there is any party in Northern Ireland which is connected to any church in Northern Ireland, and if so, which party and which church?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

church and state have not been decoupled there yet.

This is just incredible, from someone who lives in ROI, to direct such a statement at a region of the UK.
....................... and so we do full-circle back to the Angelus LOL

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Francie, I was not looking for a definition of church and state, rather I was keen to have a question answered.

I'll try again. Would you suggest that there is any party in Northern Ireland which is connected to any church in Northern Ireland, and if so, which party and which church?

The DUP are a party who insist that all follow their religious beliefs and have done for decades.

I explained what 'church and state' was a reference to.

Fann Linn

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The DUP are a party who insist that all follow their religious beliefs and have done for decades.

I explained what 'church and state' was a reference to.

The Most Rev Ian...

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

This is just incredible, from someone who lives in ROI, to direct such a statement at a region of the UK.
....................... and so we do full-circle back to the Angelus LOL

downcow, the UK government had to go above the heads of your devolved government to institute rights for LGBT people, denied on the basis of their fundamentalist religious beliefs by the DUP. You are outliers in this regard in your OWN union.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

Francie, I was not looking for a definition of church and state, rather I was keen to have a question answered.

I'll try again. Would you suggest that there is any party in Northern Ireland which is connected to any church in Northern Ireland, and if so, which party and which church?

Hold on, are you suggesting the DUP have NO connection to Free Presbyterianism, Downcow? Like literally no connection between them at all?

Honestly, that's about as credible as suggesting SF have no connection to the IRA.

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Hold on, are you suggesting the DUP have NO connection to Free Presbyterianism, Downcow? Like literally no connection between them at all?

Honestly, that's about as credible as suggesting SF have no connection to the IRA.

Where did I say that fionn?
I was trying to get Francie to stop talking in riddles and say what he means. You will note I failed miserably

I do think people over egg the free p involvement in the dup by a rough calculation, well under 5% of their vote belong to free p church. That means we’ll over 95% of their vote are not free Presbyterian.

I have no time for the dup and sm disgusted by the free p church.
I hate how the dup play religion with politics. But I think that’s breaking down.

I think the dup are in real trouble at the next election. I know loads of people who voted every time for them who say they will never vote again for them.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

Where did I say that fionn?
I was trying to get Francie to stop talking in riddles and say what he means. You will note I failed miserably

I do think people over egg the free p involvement in the dup by a rough calculation, well under 5% of their vote belong to free p church. That means we’ll over 95% of their vote are not free Presbyterian.

I believe Francie stated quite clearly above that he was referring to the DUP.

To be very clear, I'm not suggesting any connection between you and Free Presbyterianism, Downcow. Nor am I suggesting it is anything but a fringe religion in the general population in the North, but the point you raise actually highlights rather than diminishes the Free Presbyterian connection with the DUP. The percentage of the DUP vote made up of Free Presbyterians is MUCH less than 5% actually.

There are approximately 15,000 Free Presbyterians in NI, that would be less than 0.8% of the population, less than 1.5% of the Unionist side of the population!

That fringe church who make up less than a single percent of our population, yet they are the most represented single denomination within the DUP. That's what I'd characterise as a pretty damn significantly over-representative level of control that the fringe Free Presbyterian Church is allowed to have in our home.

I have no time for the dup and sm disgusted by the free p church.
I hate how the dup play religion with politics. But I think that’s breaking down.

I think the dup are in real trouble at the next election. I know loads of people who voted every time for them who say they will never vote again for them.

You'll hear no disagreement from me on the first part. On the second, I've heard it before too many times from both sides. Voting season will come around, and the majority of those promising never to vote for them again will, because they're afraid the other side won't break step and Sinn Fein will get in. I know plenty in my own community who will do the very same the other way.

There'll be no grand watershed moment, just hopefully a gradual chipping away. We can even see how it goes when a party attempts to step out of the green and orange, with people from the Republican side trying to paint them as middle class Unionists and those from the Loyalist side trying to paint them as educated Shinners.

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I believe Francie stated quite clearly above that he was referring to the DUP.

To be very clear, I'm not suggesting any connection between you and Free Presbyterianism, Downcow. Nor am I suggesting it is anything but a fringe religion in the general population in the North, but the point you raise actually highlights rather than diminishes the Free Presbyterian connection with the DUP. The percentage of the DUP vote made up of Free Presbyterians is MUCH less than 5% actually.

There are approximately 15,000 Free Presbyterians in NI, that would be less than 0.8% of the population, less than 1.5% of the Unionist side of the population!

That fringe church who make up less than a single percent of our population, yet they are the most represented single denomination within the DUP. That's what I'd characterise as a pretty damn significantly over-representative level of control that the fringe Free Presbyterian Church is allowed to have in our home.



You'll hear no disagreement from me on the first part. On the second, I've heard it before too many times from both sides. Voting season will come around, and the majority of those promising never to vote for them again will, because they're afraid the other side won't break step and Sinn Fein will get in. I know plenty in my own community who will do the very same the other way.

There'll be no grand watershed moment, just hopefully a gradual chipping away. We can even see how it goes when a party attempts to step out of the green and orange, with people from the Republican side trying to paint them as middle class Unionists and those from the Loyalist side trying to paint them as educated Shinners.

I am not sure what you mean when you say they are the most represented single denomination in the dup. Where do you get that stat????

Tell me, do you realise that most unionist voters in ni thinks the dup connection to fundamentalist religion pales into insignificance to Sinn Féin’s connection to sectarian psychopathic killers. Unionist still just can’t understand how ordinary nationalists bring themselves to vote for a party so linked you those who murdered their family and friends.
I have had experiences and encounters that help me understand, but I meet so many who are hurt to their very being when they see so many supporting those that killed and maimed their loved ones.

Our recent history in ni is tragic and we have to try to find empathy for each other

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

do you realise that most unionist voters in ni thinks the dup connection to fundamentalist religion pales into insignificance to Sinn Féin’s connection to sectarian psychopathic killers.

The former DUP leader described unionist serial catholic-killers as 'counter terrorists'. All the Unionist leaders attended gun-runner Willie Frazer's funeral and have attended the funerals of some of the most depraved killers ever to have walked the streets.

You haven't a leg to stand on when it comes to moralising over the character of your politicians.

FrancieBrady

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The former DUP leader described unionist serial catholic-killers as 'counter terrorists'. All the Unionist leaders attended gun-runner Willie Frazer's funeral and have attended the funerals of some of the most depraved killers ever to have walked the streets.

You haven't a leg to stand on when it comes to moralising over the character of your politicians.

Yeh, like nationalists don't bat an eye when the BA is celebrated, or the RUC or when Loyalists are consulted on what the DUP should do etc etc
Only downcows wee people 'feel hurt'...did you not know that?