Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

downcow

lawred2 wrote: »

Think you'll find most people want to see the back of the Angelus.. it's been said to you before. It's in no way to be taken as a measure of the importance of RC church in modern Ireland.

It pisses me off mightily to be honest

So you need to examine what is going on. If the Presbyterian church were given 1 min every evening at news time on ni, I think non-presbys would be loud and clear about the discrimination.
I have been laughed at on here before for pointing to studies that suggest when a minority is under 15-20% it is inclined to just keep its head down. That’s why all the prods speaking out in ROI are saying all is fine.

That’s another way NI is a success; there is legislation etc that would ensure something like angelus is jumped on.

downcow

lawred2 wrote: »

You point to coverage of parochial stuff being of interest as if all bbc NI covers is of a global nature..

Marching season?

Quite the contrary. I actually pointed out that there are aspects of uk tv coverage that is parochial. Do you just make stuff up to suit your story

saabsaab

True enough RTE can be very Parochial at times and not in a good way. Too much about Dublin not the rest of the country. Even the weather at times 'A sunny day tomorrow' but if you are careful you see that the west or south have rain!

lawred2

downcow wrote: »

So you need to examine what is going on. If the Presbyterian church were given 1 min every evening at news time on ni, I think non-presbys would be loud and clear about the discrimination.
I have been laughed at on here before for pointing to studies that suggest when a minority is under 15-20% it is inclined to just keep its head down. That’s why all the prods speaking out in ROI are saying all is fine.

you won't find me arguing on the angelus

in fact you won't find much argument anywhere

you're kinda flogging that one really

lawred2

saabsaab wrote: »

True enough RTE can be very Parochial at times and not in a good way. Too much about Dublin not the rest of the country. Even the weather at times 'A sunny day tomorrow' but if you are careful you see that the west or south have rain!

to be fair though - the west only needs mentioning in the forecast when it's NOT going to rain

Ireland is too small really to have regionalized broadcasters like you have in the UK... so it's inevitable that the largest population centre kinda sucks in the focus..

As for sports coverage being parochial - I presume downcow can only be referring to the GAA. However I've seen plenty coverage on BBC NI of the football championship so not sure that that tallies.

downcow

lawred2 wrote: »

you won't find me arguing on the angelus

in fact you won't find much argument anywhere

you're kinda flogging that one really

You are completely missing the point. If you are correct and few want it then who’s agenda ensures it continues??

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

You are completely missing the point. If you are correct and few want it then who’s agenda ensures it continues??

Nobody cares enough to make much of a fuss about it.
It is now a 'moment of reflection" aimed at all, not just RCers.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nobody cares enough to make much of a fuss about it..

Exactly Francie. Exactly the issue.
If it had been directed at black people then everyone would have been horrified, but it was only the enemies in the black north.

Francie we are 100% on the same page on this one. Nobody cared

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Exactly Francie. Exactly the issue.
If it had been directed at black people then everyone would have been horrified, but it was only the enemies in the black north.

Francie we are 100% on the same page on this one. Nobody cared

You miss the point downcow, It is a general 'moment for reflection'.
All the main churches welcomed it's revamp and Archbishop Eames called for it's continuation.

You've put the size nines in it again.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You miss the point downcow, It is a general 'moment for reflection'.
All the main churches welcomed it's revamp and Archbishop Eames called for it's continuation.

You've put the size nines in it again.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I have no idea what you are talking about.

The RC Church isn't 'given a minute at news time'.

The slot was revamped years ago and all the main churches including the Presbyterian Church were happy with it, and A, Eames welcomed the continuation of the slot which is now a call to 'a moment of reflection'.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The RC Church isn't 'given a minute at news time'.

The slot was revamped years ago and all the main churches including the Presbyterian Church were happy with it, and A, Eames welcomed the continuation of the slot which is now a call to 'a moment of reflection'.

Try to keep up Francie. That is hardly a surprise as evidence shows that minorities under 20% keep their heads down and say everything is fine.
It’s a bit like how nationalists never complained about gstq being played every night on the bbc They knew their place. Thankfully there is now greater respect for nationalists in ni and it doesn’t happen.
I can’t believe that you really do believe that Protestants, Muslims, Hindi , etc think it’s a great idea to front the main news programme with the angelus. You even hear loads on here that don’t like it but can’t stop it.

I am surprised at you Francie sticking up for compulsory listening to the angelus

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Try to keep up Francie. That is hardly a surprise as evidence shows that minorities under 20% keep their heads down and say everything is fine.
It’s a bit like how nationalists never complained about gstq being played every night on the bbc They knew their place. Thankfully there is now greater respect for nationalists in ni and it doesn’t happen.
I can’t believe that you really do believe that Protestants, Muslims, Hindi , etc think it’s a great idea to front the main news programme with the angelus. You even hear loads on here that don’t like it but can’t stop it.

I am surprised at you Francie sticking up for compulsory listening to the angelus

The 'heads down' stuff is also 'size nines in it' nonsense. There have been many fierce debates about the Angelus xlot and your religion, the RC religion and secularists have been far from silent about it.
Read this and just stop seeing stuff that isn't there:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2009/sep/23/rte-angelus-ireland

Beltby

downcow wrote: »

Try to keep up Francie. That is hardly a surprise as evidence shows that minorities under 20% keep their heads down and say everything is fine.
It’s a bit like how nationalists never complained about gstq being played every night on the bbc They knew their place. Thankfully there is now greater respect for nationalists in ni and it doesn’t happen.
I can’t believe that you really do believe that Protestants, Muslims, Hindi , etc think it’s a great idea to front the main news programme with the angelus. You even hear loads on here that don’t like it but can’t stop it.

I am surprised at you Francie sticking up for compulsory listening to the angelus

Would you please stop telling lies. Francie never said or implied that. It's a shocking way to carry on in a discussion.

downcow

Beltby wrote: »

Would you please stop telling lies. Francie never said or implied that. It's a shocking way to carry on in a discussion.

He did. Just a few posts back he implied all faiths were happy with it.
It’s clear to read

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The 'heads down' stuff is also 'size nines in it' nonsense. There have been many fierce debates about the Angelus xlot and your religion, the RC religion and secularists have been far from silent about it.
Read this and just stop seeing stuff that isn't there:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2009/sep/23/rte-angelus-ireland

I think I should drop out of the angelus debate. You guys have stuff to talk about. Some of you are saying that it’s fine and everyone is happy with it and some of you are saying most people want rid of it. You can’t all be right.

Here is a unionist that you guys quote often raising it 20 years ago. https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/opinion/sectarian-ring-of-the-angelus-1.1053585%3fmode=amp

You need to stop defending the indefensible

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

He did. Just a few posts back he implied all faiths were happy with it.
It’s clear to read

I think you need new glasses or else stop lying.

FrancieBrady wrote:

All the main churches welcomed it's revamp

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I think I should drop out of the angelus debate. You guys have stuff to talk about. Some of you are saying that it’s fine and everyone is happy with it and some of you are saying most people want rid of it. You can’t all be right.

Here is a unionist that you guys quote often raising it 20 years ago. https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/opinion/sectarian-ring-of-the-angelus-1.1053585%3fmode=amp

You need to stop defending the indefensible

You are the one saying that 'people kept their heads down about it'

Size nines getting a good outing.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You are the one saying that 'people kept their heads down about it'

Size nines getting a good outing.

I don’t think I actually said that Francie. I pointed out that minorities keep their heads down and evidence shows that they say everything is fine when they know everything is not fine. They try to fit in.
I certainly was suggesting that was the case when you said all other faiths supported the playing of the angelus.
I find it incredible that you think deep down that Muslims, evangelical Protestants etc would want these bells played before the news.
Most posters on here are agreeing that even must atheists don’t want the angelus.
But it continues. You would do better to examine why your state is so under the cosh of the church that it needs to play the angelus.

I am pointing out that this is another success of NI that neither the angelus or gstq could be played each evening on the state broadcaster.

I find it incredible on 2020 and even more incredible that you defend it

It does not imply a diverse society is encouraged. And yes of course many Muslim countries broadcast a call to prayer, but it’s hardly an example to follow. And I guarantee you the Catholics in those countries will tell you they like it and it’s ok. Hardly a measure

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I don’t think I actually said that Francie. I pointed out that minorities keep their heads down and evidence shows that they say everything is fine when they know everything is not fine. They try to fit in.

Where is this evidence in relation to your latest trip up a blind alley.

Exactly - the evidence, some of which you presented yourself :rolleyes: is that the minority didn't stay silent about this and actually effected the change to what it is now, a 'call to reflection' that the leader of the Church of Ireland expressed a desire to see remain as did other church leaders.

I certainly was suggesting that was the case when you said all other faiths supported the playing of the angelus.

LYING again. I did not say any such thing, I said the 'MAIN' churches.

I find it incredible that you think deep down that Muslims, evangelical Protestants etc would want these bells played before the news.
Most posters on here are agreeing that even must atheists don’t want the angelus.

I never for a second said they did.

But it continues. You would do better to examine why your state is so under the cosh of the church that it needs to play the angelus.

I am pointing out that this is another success of NI that neither the angelus or gstq could be played each evening on the state broadcaster.

Does anyone ask that when the Orange order get special programmes on their celebrations (that studiously ignore the bad bits)

I find it incredible on 2020 and even more incredible that you defend it

I didn't 'defend' it, I called out your lies about it.
Personally, I don't care enough about an innocuous minute or two from which people derive pleasure. I turn off programmes that might infest my brain and force me to question my religious beliefs after watching for a minute or so. I am wise to these nefarious Roman Catholics downcow! :rolleyes::rolleyes:

It does not imply a diverse society is encouraged. And yes of course many Muslim countries broadcast a call to prayer, but it’s hardly an example to follow. And I guarantee you the Catholics in those countries will tell you they like it and it’s ok. Hardly a measure

It is specifically designed as a call to prayer if observing the Angelus is a part of your faith, or as a moment of reflection whatsoever faith you believe. Every state broadcasting station do it...'Thought for the Day' on the Beeb being one I have listened to over the years. I never once thought to complain if it was the Archbishop Of Westminster/Canterbury or the Jewish Rabbi leading the way.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Where is this evidence in relation to your latest trip up a blind alley.

Exactly - the evidence, some of which you presented yourself :rolleyes: is that the minority didn't stay silent about this and actually effected the change to what it is now, a 'call to reflection' that the leader of the Church of Ireland expressed a desire to see remain as did other church leaders.

LYING again. I did not say any such thing, I said the 'MAIN' churches.

I never for a second said they did.

Does anyone ask that when the Orange order get special programmes on their celebrations (that studiously ignore the bad bits)


I didn't 'defend' it, I called out your lies about it.
Personally, I don't care enough about an innocuous minute or two from which people derive pleasure. I turn off programmes that might infest my brain and force me to question my religious beliefs after watching for a minute or so. I am wise to these nefarious Roman Catholics downcow! :rolleyes::rolleyes:


It is specifically designed as a call to prayer if observing the Angelus is a part of your faith, or as a moment of reflection whatsoever faith you believe. Every state broadcasting station do it...'Thought for the Day' on the Beeb being one I have listened to over the years. I never once thought to complain if it was the Archbishop Of Westminster/Canterbury or the Jewish Rabbi leading the way.

There is sooo much wrong with all of that. I’ll try to be concise.

Your being pedantic. All faiths, main churches, whatever. I think people can see through that.

No comparison with ‘thought for the day’. It is what it says and delivered by the widest possible range of people Christian Muslim atheist humanist tc etc etc.

I would completely opposed if the was orange music on the lead up to the news each night for last 50 years but we were saying, sure it’s ok cause many of the tunes are used by the nationalist community. Your having a laugh. And as for the twelfth programme - this is more spin. It is a 30 min programme once a year showing the ‘good bits’ of the largest festival in our country. Hardly overkill (oh and part of it is shown live on the morning.

You are the only country in Europe to play the angelus - even Italy stopped it. And the Vatican tv only plays it once a week. Does this tell you nothing. I could draw you attention to a group of nations who do televise a call to prayer. Maybe if you ever leave the Eu you could talk to them.

If this happened in NI. With the angelus or the twelfth you refer to played daily by the broadcaster they would probably end up in the court of human rights

Francie don’t defen the indefensible. Just admit you country has failed in some ways we have succeeded in ni and vice versa

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

There is sooo much wrong with all of that. I’ll try to be concise.

Your being pedantic. All faiths, main churches, whatever. I think people can see through that.

No comparison with ‘thought for the day’. It is what it says and delivered by the widest possible range of people Christian Muslim atheist humanist tc etc etc.

I would completely opposed if the was orange music on the lead up to the news each night for last 50 years but we were saying, sure it’s ok cause many of the tunes are used by the nationalist community. Your having a laugh. And as for the twelfth programme - this is more spin. It is a 30 min programme once a year showing the ‘good bits’ of the largest festival in our country. Hardly overkill (oh and part of it is shown live on the morning.

You are the only country in Europe to play the angelus - even Italy stopped it. And the Vatican tv only plays it once a week. Does this tell you nothing. I could draw you attention to a group of nations who do televise a call to prayer. Maybe if you ever leave the Eu you could talk to them.

If this happened in NI. With the angelus or the twelfth you refer to played daily by the broadcaster they would probably end up in the court of human rights

Francie don’t defen the indefensible. Just admit you country has failed in some ways we have succeeded in ni and vice versa

More self serving nonsense.

Look around you at the world. Christian faiths predominate in christian countries. Big deal.

Your head is in the sand about this and refusing to countenance the fact that the main Churches here (which are not the Muslim of Evangelical ones) are happy that this tradition continue.

You would love dissent, but have a look around...there is none about this. We are a society that can live together and accept each other. Some would love division and supremacy because they know nothing else.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

More self serving nonsense.

Look around you at the world. Christian faiths predominate in christian countries. Big deal.

Your head is in the sand about this and refusing to countenance the fact that the main Churches here (which are not the Muslim of Evangelical ones) are happy that this tradition continue.

You would love dissent, but have a look around...there is none about this. We are a society that can live together and accept each other. Some would love division and supremacy because they know nothing else.

I did look around the world Francie and unless you show my differently, my research suggests that only MUSLIM COUNTRIES AND REP. IRELAND state broadcaster issues a daily call to prayer.
Not even Vatican tv. Lol.

Francie did your mum ever tell you the story about the mother who went along to an army passing out ceremony and during the parade she was heard to remark “oh look, everyone is out of step except our jimmy”
You’d make a great mummy for everything republican lol

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I did look around the world Francie and unless you show my differently, my research suggests that only MUSLIM COUNTRIES AND REP. IRELAND state broadcaster issues a daily call to prayer.
Not even Vatican tv. Lol.

Francie did your mum ever tell you the story about the mother who went along to an army passing out ceremony and during the parade she was heard to remark “oh look, everyone is out of step except our jimmy”
You’d make a great mummy for everything republican lol

It is a call to reflection or prayer that all the main churches are happy to continue. And most others don't care.

That kills you that you can't point to any real angst about this.

You are the one 'out of step' as you have had to lie about what is being said about it.

A 'society' comfortable enough to live and let live.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It is a call to reflection or prayer that all the main churches are happy to continue. And most others don't care.

That kills you that you can't point to any real angst about this.

You are the one 'out of step' as you have had to lie about what is being said about it.

A 'society' comfortable enough to live and let live.

Francie it’s a pointless discussion.
Bells that sound exactly like the angelus. Played at the time the angelus is played.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck................

All but the most blinkered could recognise it for what it is.

It’s like saying the orangemen are walking down the road only because the are going for their sandwiches in the field lol

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Francie it’s a pointless discussion.
Bells that sound exactly like the angelus. Played at the time the angelus is played.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck................

All but the most blinkered could recognise it for what it is.

It’s like saying the orangemen are walking down the road only because the are going for their sandwiches in the field lol

No downcow, it is quite clear that as usual you have decided it is a duck while that actual reality is that it points to something NI has failed to achieve, an accommodation for each other and an embrace of what we have in common not our difference.

That you once again want to pretend about this reflects your own sad failure.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No downcow, it is quite clear that as usual you have decided it is a duck while that actual reality is that it points to something NI has failed to achieve, an accommodation for each other and an embrace of what we have in common not our difference.

That you once again want to pretend about this reflects your own sad failure.

Again Francie you fly in the face of the evidence.
There were two main cultures on this island. In ROI one has all but disappeared while in NI both continue to flourish. Which is the failure in the encouraging diversity stakes?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Again Francie you fly in the face of the evidence.
There were two main cultures on this island. In ROI one has all but disappeared while in NI both continue to flourish. Which is the failure in the encouraging diversity stakes?

Religion is a part of the culture, not a 'culture' in itself.

We have one primary culture here and as I have shown those in the Protestant faith are part and parcel and integrated into it, happily. Despite your efforts to portray it otherwise.

Roman Catholicism is slightly rising per the last NI census while the 'Protestant religions all show a decline BTW. So 'flourishing would be a slight exaggeration.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Northern_Ireland

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Religion is a part of the culture, not a 'culture' in itself.

We have one primary culture here and as I have shown those in the Protestant faith are part and parcel and integrated into it, happily. Despite your efforts to portray it otherwise.

Roman Catholicism is slightly rising per the last NI census while the 'Protestant religions all show a decline BTW. So 'flourishing would be a slight exaggeration.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Northern_Ireland

I never mentioned religion.
You are great at answering questions that are not asked

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I never mentioned religion.
You are great at answering questions that are not asked

Now you want to pivot when we were discussing religion and the playing of the Angelus...very good.

We have an homogeneous culture in the south which excludes nobody. You shot yourself in the foot bringing up the old Angelus trope when it was shown to you that all the main churches are happy to see it continue.

You are right about the north, the same culture riven in two. You have failed to coalesce as a 'society'. That is the problem/failure in a nutshell.