Who is the best/worst Taoiseach in modern times?

mr_fegelien

Leo seems to be like Obama in the sense that he's made strides in terms of being the first Indian politician and first gay politician but his policies were average at best and incompetent at worst.

Brian Cowen stands out as the worst we've had but yet some laud him for bringing Ireland out of the Great Recession that happened in 08'. What do you think?

Inquitus

Brian Cowen, Bertie Ahern, Micheál Martin, take your pick from any of the past few FF leaders!

L1011

Bertie set the traps for Cowen, Cowen was more hapless than crap

touts

Cowen was given a complete hospital pass. That said he was clearly not up to the job.

I think history will judge Enda Kenny very harshly. Yes he inherited a mess but really he had a huge opportunity to rebuild the whole of Ireland and instead he followed a Dublin First policy that ultimately caused huge social problems in Dublin and left much of rural Ireland in an endless economic depression.

I think it will be a toss up between Cowen and Kenny. The country was in a mess when Cowen left but he had a lot going against him. Kenny had everything going for him and Ireland feels like a very harsh and nasty place as a result of his policies.

Wildcard: John Bruton didn't do much positive and managed to almost destroy the peace process so he isn't going to be on anyone's top 5 list.

For Forks Sake

Brian Cowen, and it's not even close.

Good loser

Thought Enda Kenny played a good game.

Don't remember a lot about Bruton but, nowadays, he is an outstanding analyst.

IAMAMORON

Best - has to be a toss up between Charlie or Leo. I mean Charlie was a class act and sadly missed. Anyone that rips off a country with such finesse and gets away with it deserves that countries respect. It's not as if every senior civil servant in the country wasn't at the same craic either. Which came first, procurement fraud or backhanders? My recollection gets fuzzy.

Leo never gets the respect he deserves. He finally nailed our abortion legislation, legalised marriage for everyone and you could bring him anywhere. I love the way he shoots from the hip also, especially to the cranks who are destroying this country by the minute, he just hits them back with the truth, cranks can't deal with that.

So a toss up between Charlie and Leo for me.

Worst - has to be Dev, pious stooge who you couldn't trust to organise a piss up in a brewery. Dragged the country to its knees for years until Seán Lemass ran him. The 1939 constitution was basically written by a foreign sect and Dev spent the next 8 years implementing policies which broke the country. I get that there was a war on, but his fanaticism destroyed us. He really believed that we should be meeting at the crossroads singing folksongs and swapping potatoes. I find it disturbing when modern politicians spoof about him being an influence on their lives, I mean how cretinous can you get?

newuser99999

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Leo never gets the respect he deserves. He finally nailed our abortion legislation, legalised marriage for everyone

Wow you have a short memory. Hilarious.

Ol' Donie

Worst: Any of the one who turned up in a television ad for a tabloid rag.

IAMAMORON

newuser99999 wrote: »

Wow you have a short memory. Hilarious.

Good, it will allow me to forget your valuable input into my opinion on something. Thanks for sharing btw.

teddyhead

Micheal has got to be the worst. At a time of national crisis , he put his personal interests/ambitions ahead of his own party and country. He is the hero we deserve though. The cutest of hoors.

Tell me how

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Leo never gets the respect he deserves. He finally nailed our abortion legislation, legalised marriage for everyone and you could bring him anywhere. I love the way he shoots from the hip also, especially to the cranks who are destroying this country by the minute, he just hits them back with the truth, cranks can't deal with that.

Leo followed on Repeal and SSM, not led.
He did well on Covid initially but many medical staff who rushed home to help were abandoned when it came to getting permanent roles.
He targeted people committing fraud and would have let Maria Bailey get away with her fraudulent claim but for the public uproar.
He took no ownership in delivering on the commitments to the Paris Accord which he signed us up to.

Overall I'd probably give him a 6 out of 10.

Micheal Martin 2/10 Not looking good but early days
Enda Kenny 7/10 Well capable of looking out for his buddies but represented country well abroad
Brain Cowen 4/10 Always seemed out of his depth but hard not to be during that time
Bertie Ahern 3/10 Was up to all sorts but probably was Taoiseach during period of best growth in the states history. Think people forget just how popular he was in 2002
John Bruton 5/10 No great recollection
Albert Reynolds 4/10 Did good work in peace process but was weak in face of CC influence leading to government collapse
Charlie Haughey 3/10 Would have been a great leader if you were within his inner circle but he shafted the people of the country with his 'way beyond our means speech' and was the original bandwagoner

IAMAMORON

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Best -

Worst - has to be Dev, pious stooge who you couldn't trust to organise a piss up in a brewery. Dragged the country to its knees for years until Seán Lemass ran him. The 1939 constitution was basically written by a foreign sect and Dev spent the next 8 years implementing policies which broke the country.

Not defending Dev here, but for all the bad things you can say about him, this is the least accurate or damning.

The Irish Constitution is one of the most liberating and democratic documents protecting their citizens from tyranny ever written. Why? Because it didn't stick 21st centaury citizens of Ireland with the same vision people had in the 1920's or 30's. The people change the constitution, not the government.

I don't agree or like that same sex couples couldn't get married, don't like that women weren't free to make a choice about birth, etc, back in the 1950's. But the constitution prevented people in the 1950's dictating what people in 2020 can and cannot do.

Who knows? I mean I doubt it but maybe in another 80 years people will want to stop abortion and same sex marriage? I hope they don't but I don't want the right to stop them.

Say a lot of bad things about Dev but I think we can thank him at least for a more progressive constitution than frankly most of the world's democracies.

Hermy

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Best Anyone that rips off a country with such finesse and gets away with it deserves that countries respect. It's not as if every senior civil servant in the country wasn't at the same craic either. Which came first, procurement fraud or backhanders? My recollection gets fuzzy.

Any person who rips off their own country, especially while holding the highest office in the land, deserves anything but respect. And if every civil servant in the land was doing it too that's a further indictment of that persons unwillingness or inability to root out corruption.

Worst...has to be Dev, pious stooge...

Agree with you on Dev. We still haven't dealt properly with the abuse scandals that his deference to the Roman Catholic Church facilitated. The details of those abuses are at least in the public domain now but the organisations that committed, facilitated and covered up those abuses have never and likely will never be held accountable for their actions and inactions.

However, as this thread is about modern times Leo gets my vote for marriage equality, repeal of the 8th and anything else that further removes the pernicious influence of the Church from Irish affairs. Worst is Ahern for continuing where Haughey left off.

Wanderer78

mr_fegelien wrote:

Brian Cowen stands out as the worst we've had but yet some laud him for bringing Ireland out of the Great Recession that happened in 08'. What do you think?

Cowen was poor, but he was landed it by the previous cowboy, Leo has been great for many reasons, sadly though, him and his parties major downfall is their economic ideologies, but it is good to see our country becoming more mature and open, if only we could get a handle on our economics, it could be a great little country, but to be fair, we re not the only country struggling in that department, and there's others, including some far wealther countries, that are doing much worse

Robert McGrath

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Not defending Dev here, but for all the bad things you can say about him, this is the least accurate or damning.

The Irish Constitution is one of the most liberating and democratic documents protecting their citizens from tyranny ever written. Why? Because it didn't stick 21st centaury citizens of Ireland with the same vision people had in the 1920's or 30's. The people change the constitution, not the government.

I don't agree or like that same sex couples couldn't get married, don't like that women weren't free to make a choice about birth, etc, back in the 1950's. But the constitution prevented people in the 1950's dictating what people in 2020 can and cannot do.

Who knows? I mean I doubt it but maybe in another 80 years people will want to stop abortion and same sex marriage? I hope they don't but I don't want the right to stop them.

Say a lot of bad things about Dev but I think we can thank him at least for a more progressive constitution than frankly most of the world's democracies.

I’m not sure how the above is a defence of the progressiveness of Dev’s constitution. The examples you gave arise from constitutional amendments, not the constitution itself.

IAMAMORON

Deleted User wrote: »

Not defending Dev here, but for all the bad things you can say about him, this is the least accurate or damning.

The Irish Constitution is one of the most liberating and democratic documents protecting their citizens from tyranny ever written. Why? Because it didn't stick 21st centaury citizens of Ireland with the same vision people had in the 1920's or 30's. The people change the constitution, not the government.

I don't agree or like that same sex couples couldn't get married, don't like that women weren't free to make a choice about birth, etc, back in the 1950's. But the constitution prevented people in the 1950's dictating what people in 2020 can and cannot do.

Who knows? I mean I doubt it but maybe in another 80 years people will want to stop abortion and same sex marriage? I hope they don't but I don't want the right to stop them.

Say a lot of bad things about Dev but I think we can thank him at least for a more progressive constitution than frankly most of the world's democracies.

Nah, you should thank John Hearne for ensuring that the constitution was pliable and open to future referenda. Dev was a corrupt newspaper owner / gunman, who realised that the best way to coerce a rebellious country only 1 generation out of rebellion was to slam them with hardcore religious morals and an adoption of the tripe invented by mid 19th century Irish romantics ( modern translation " pie ball " ). The guy was a stooge, in fact anyone that involved themselves with McQuaid in such a fashion needs a rethink. While you are doing so, have a think about the tripe that McQuaid got Dev to agree on. Free republic my eye. So you can thank Johnny Hearne for our repeal of the conservative moralistic defining excrement which was implemented in the first draft of the 1938 constitution. Dev was a stooge, get over it. All about himself and let far too many people push his buttons for him, he was an apologist for everyone else's bad decisions and the epitome of a despot, time will prove it.

Inquitus

I think Leo did a good job in his Tenure, he's defo in the conversation for best Taoiseach imho!

IAMAMORON

Hermy wrote: »

Any person who rips off their own country, especially while holding the highest office in the land, deserves anything but respect. And if every civil servant in the land was doing it too that's a further indictment of that persons unwillingness or inability to root out corruption.

I massively agree with you. But I am still in love with Charlie. Underneath his skullduggery he genuinely loved us, you know it. I get that he was a bolleex and all, but I can't stop loving him.

Wanderer78

IAMAMORON wrote: »

I massively agree with you. But I am still in love with Charlie. Underneath his skullduggery he genuinely loved us, you know it. I get that he was a bolleex and all, but I can't stop loving him.

he wasnt a particularly nice person, if you hear about some of his antics in private

Eric Cartman

Charlie Haughey absolutely lined his own pockets but what he gave Ireland in terms of laying the foundations to make us americas EU branch and supply us all that creamy tech money has to be admired.

I would rate Charlie as the best.
The worst might very well turn out to be MM , but its early days

PhilOssophy

For me, I would say Bertie was by far the worst, given the outcome of his tenure. He put absolutely no control on anything, anybody who talked about a downturn was told to commit suicide. Between him and Charlie "When I have it I'll spend it" McCreevy, they set the traps for what was a crippling recession.

Cowen was useless but he was given the ultimate hospital pass.

I think Enda was OK in fairness to him (and probably the best we had). Himself and Noonan got more right than wrong. Irish Water was their biggest disaster in my view. I would say he didn't tackle waste in the public sector like he could have and Dr. J's plan for the health service floundered badly.

I think Leo's administration was a lot poorer than people remember. Yes they did well in Covid but where was the same urgency regarding housing, where was the control of costs at the childrens hospital, where was the accountability for cervical check. I also never liked that they didn't try to get more corporation tax from multi national companies but kept hammering the squeezed middle.

Wanderer78

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Charlie Haughey absolutely lined his own pockets but what he gave Ireland in terms of laying the foundations to make us americas EU branch and supply us all that creamy tech money has to be admired.

I would rate Charlie as the best.
The worst might very well turn out to be MM , but its early days

fdi is definitely something to be grateful for but he wasnt a particular nice person

Wanderer78

PhilOssophy wrote: »

For me, I would say Bertie was by far the worst, given the outcome of his tenure. He put absolutely no control on anything, anybody who talked about a downturn was told to commit suicide. Between him and Charlie "When I have it I'll spend it" McCreevy, they set the traps for what was a crippling recession.

Cowen was useless but he was given the ultimate hospital pass.

I think Enda was OK in fairness to him (and probably the best we had). Himself and Noonan got more right than wrong. Irish Water was their biggest disaster in my view. I would say he didn't tackle waste in the public sector like he could have and Dr. J's plan for the health service floundered badly.

I think Leo's administration was a lot poorer than people remember. Yes they did well in Covid but where was the same urgency regarding housing, where was the control of costs at the childrens hospital, where was the accountability for cervical check. I also never liked that they didn't try to get more corporation tax from multi national companies but kept hammering the squeezed middle.

they also didnt tackle the inefficiencies in private sector either

IAMAMORON

Wanderer78 wrote: »

he wasnt a particularly nice person, if you hear about some of his antics in private

Yeh maybe, but everyone can be a bit of bitch sometimes you know? Leaders sometimes have to be "assertive" to get shít done. That is why some people hate them and some people love them. So when he wasn't buying constituents bottles of Crested Ten he was slapping Garda drivers in the face for crossing him. Heavy is the head that wears the crown. Turns out the cops needed a few slaps anyway. You need to read all the chapters to get a feeling for the whole book, not the just the few paragraphs you like.

antimatterx

IAMAMORON wrote: »

I massively agree with you. But I am still in love with Charlie. Underneath his skullduggery he genuinely loved us, you know it. I get that he was a bolleex and all, but I can't stop loving him.

I detest FF, but I love Charlie. He's economic policies really made us a wealthy country.

Wanderer78

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Yeh maybe, but everyone can be a bit of bitch sometimes you know? Leaders sometimes have to be "assertive" to get shít done. That is why some people hate them and some people love them. So when he wasn't buying constituents bottles of Crested Ten he was slapping Garda drivers in the face for crossing him. Heavy is the head that wears the crown. Turns out the cops needed a few slaps anyway. You need to read all the chapters to get a feeling for the whole book, not the just the few paragraphs you like.

he was a misogynist and a gangster, from my own accounts

antimatterx wrote: »

I detest FF, but I love Charlie. He's economic policies really made us a wealthy country.

are we really confusing wealth with debt!

Eric Cartman

antimatterx wrote: »

I detest FF, but I love Charlie. He's economic policies really made us a wealthy country.

and sure we've had a million and one politicians here who were absolute b*stards in private but never gave us anything, turning us from a little backwards farming island off europe into one of the top 10 richest countries in the world and the EU's tech hub is absolutely worth any amount of being somebody you wouldn't want to be around in public.

Wanderer78

Eric Cartman wrote: »

and sure we've had a million and one politicians here who were absolute b*stards in private but never gave us anything, turning us from a little backwards farming island off europe into one of the top 10 richest countries in the world and the EU's tech hub is absolutely worth any amount of being somebody you wouldn't want to be around in public.

again, are we confusing wealth with debt!

kevincaomhin

Firstly when does modern times begin? Is it not easier to look at all Taoiseach(s) or is it Taoisigh?


I would make a case for Cosgrove WT simply because our history would be a lot bloodier if he had not decided to handover power peacefully to DeValera. Honorable mention for Sean Lemass for economic policy.


If modern times is taken as living memory it has to be Albert Reynolds for his role in Northern Ireland peace process. Not saying he was perfect or anything but he did a lot of good.

Marhay70

SNIP. Knock off the name calling please.

PhilOssophy

Wanderer78 wrote: »

they also didnt tackle the inefficiencies in private sector either

What? And why would that be their responsibility? Did I read that right?

The big difference is that one is paid by the state and the other is paid by somebody else. It is hardly up to them to tell companies who are paying their wages how to run their businesses!

An Ri rua

mr_fegelien wrote: »

Leo seems to be like Obama in the sense that he's made strides in terms of being the first Indian politician and first gay politician but his policies were average at best and incompetent at worst.

Brian Cowen stands out as the worst we've had but yet some laud him for bringing Ireland out of the Great Recession that happened in 08'. What do you think?

The question more aptly is 'Do you think, Mr Fegelien?'
Brian Cowen lost his mother yesterday. Could you not take your head out of your ass before starting thread after thread?? Google is your friend.

Wanderer78

PhilOssophy wrote: »

What? And why would that be their responsibility? Did I read that right?

The big difference is that one is paid by the state and the other is paid by somebody else. It is hardly up to them to tell companies who are paying their wages how to run their businesses!

we never talk about the inefficiencies of the private sector, apparently is far better than the public sector!

PhilOssophy

Wanderer78 wrote: »

we never talk about the inefficiencies of the private sector, apparently is far better than the public sector!

Strange logic.....

The reason we don't talk about it is because it is not costing the tax payer, if Paddy Murphy wants to pay 5 people to do something inefficiently, more the power to Paddy!
It is a different kettle of fish when the tax payer is footing the bill. Then people are entitled to expect value for money.

Wanderer78

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Strange logic.....

The reason we don't talk about it is because it is not costing the tax payer, if Paddy Murphy wants to pay 5 people to do something inefficiently, more the power to Paddy!
It is a different kettle of fish when the tax payer is footing the bill. Then people are entitled to expect value for money.

we seemed to have forgotten what happened only a few years ago, there was a reason why we experienced a 'credit crisis'!

PhilOssophy

Wanderer78 wrote: »

we seemed to have forgotten what happened only a few years ago, there was a reason why we experienced a 'credit crisis'!

And what had that got to do with inefficiency? It was poor regulation by our elected representatives, and the financial regulator/dept of finance being asleep at the wheel, which was largely responsible for that, no?

whisky_galore

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Not defending Dev here, but for all the bad things you can say about him, this is the least accurate or damning.

The Irish Constitution is one of the most liberating and democratic documents protecting their citizens from tyranny ever written. Why? Because it didn't stick 21st centaury citizens of Ireland with the same vision people had in the 1920's or 30's. The people change the constitution, not the government.
.

People now in the 21st cent tend to forget that Ireland was like a different planet then. The church was in the driving seat in many aspects of Irish life, and here's the kicker...most people liked and wanted it that way. Anyone who didn't like it had the simple choice to suck it up or leave. Like Mrs Doyle, maybe they liked the misery.

No politician would last long on a collision course with the RCC, the people, not to mind the church, wouldn't have any of it.

The RCC scandals culpability lie as much with the church as with ordinary people, functionaries of the State, Gardai etc, who knew damn well what was going on, aided, abeited and supported the church, even hurled members of their own families into laundries.

Mikefitzs

Bertie or Leo for best and Enda for worst.

gmisk

MM is time limited but he is making a good run at worst already imo

Wanderer78

PhilOssophy wrote: »

And what had that got to do with inefficiency? It was poor regulation by our elected representatives, and the financial regulator/dept of finance being asleep at the wheel, which was largely responsible for that, no?

you are indeed correct, but in true free market style, this is in fact, only a part of the story, you ll find 'credit' is generally created by private sector financial institutions, otherwise known as banks! id class an over reliance and an over supply of credit from these banks, as, 'inefficiencies' of the private sector

is_that_so

Mikefitzs wrote: »

Bertie or Leo for best and Enda for worst.

Lemass is at the top of the list as he created these modern times, Cowan at the bottom, everyone else just jockeys up and down in positions.

IAMAMORON

whisky_galore wrote: »

People now in the 21st cent tend to forget that Ireland was like a different planet then. The church was in the driving seat in many aspects of Irish life, and here's the kicker...most people liked and wanted it that way. Anyone who didn't like it had the simple choice to suck it up or leave. Like Mrs Doyle, maybe they liked the misery.

No politician would last long on a collision course with the RCC, the people, not to mind the church, wouldn't have any of it.

The RCC scandals culpability lie as much with the church as with ordinary people, functionaries of the State, Gardai etc, who knew damn well what was going on, aided, abeited and supported the church, even hurled members of their own families into laundries.

It is a fair comment Whiskey. the church did have a lot of power. But in fairness the gunmen played into their hands. When the Brits turned off the financial taps the Government was broke. We had no education or health service, they had to placate the church to provide these basic services. The quid pro quo was the church being allowed to rule from the pulpit. Their influence was more a result of a power vacuum as opposed to the Irish people suddenly finding god overnight.

skooterblue2

Wanderer78 wrote: »

we never talk about the inefficiencies of the private sector, apparently is far better than the public sector!

Inefficiencies of the public sector get paid by the tax payer, a company that is consistently efficient to the same degree as the HSE or DoE are over taken by their competitors and or go out of business. Just look what is happening to An Post at the minute.

Mikefitzs

is_that_so wrote: »

Lemass is at the top of the list as he created these modern times, Cowan at the bottom, everyone else just jockeys up and down in positions.

In my silly little mind I’d regard 40 years as modern times. So since 1980.

Wanderer78

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Inefficiencies of the public sector get paid by the tax payer, a company that is consistently efficient to the same degree as the HSE or DoE are over taken by their competitors and or go out of business. Just look what is happening to An Post at the minute.

do they really! we really do have short memories!

baring in mind, amazon makes little or nothing from its delivery services!

is_that_so

Mikefitzs wrote: »

In my silly little mind I’d regard 40 years as modern times. So since 1980.

There is no 1980 without Lemass! So the question should be "Apart from Lemass who is....?"! That will include everyone else except Liam Cosgrave and Jack Lynch anyway.

amacca

PhilOssophy wrote: »

And what had that got to do with inefficiency? It was poor regulation by our elected representatives, and the financial regulator/dept of finance being asleep at the wheel, which was largely responsible for that, no?

Imo Banking used to be the preserve of the cautious rarher boring pinstripe suit wearing bean counter, bit rich (excuse the pun) to pin it all on regulator, id say private sector sales/bonus mentality and handing out unsound loans left right and center means they need to shoulder some of the responsibility......i got the distinct impression the banks were nearly telling the regulator what to do in the run up to the bubble bursting......it was one big merry go round with a lot of vested private sector interests as well as the public sector ..... auctioneers/estate agents, media hawking property left right snd centre (unwilling to give up the advertisement revenue stream), developers and subcontractors etc etc ... if you want a regulators to regulate you hsve to make them properly independent .....instead of a fox guarding a chicken coop it was like a chicken attempting to corral a pack of wolves....then hes wheeled out as a patsy in the aftermath as if not being a strong enough regulator was his fault......he would have been out of his job if he did it properly imo.....the fault lies more with successive govts incentivising the whole thing and private sector jumping on board with zero care about long term consequences, none of them wanted to cry halt while the "party" was in full swing and each still wants to blame the other for the mess they left behind rather than fix it properly......why? because fixing it is boring and long term and requires sacrifice......and they all just want to return to the short term party......

skooterblue2

Wanderer78 wrote: »

do they really! we really do have short memories!

baring in mind, amazon makes little or nothing from its delivery services!

They dont need to, it probably suits accounting. They have one of the biggest shares of online retail (share price is over 1000 a share and growing). DHL wanted to come into Ireland about 25 years ago to buy An Posts parcel delivery service. They told the minister they wanted the delivery service but didnt want to deal with An Post and the unions.

Both parties left the table unresolved. An Post has lost most of billing services (gone electronic), their financial services are outsourced and they are the front office sales, parcel service is more expensive, its a mess of a company. Then there are the dopes who put money into prize bonds, you would be better off with mattress money.

Parcel Force, DHL. Elan and loads more are the choice of private industry. They could easily have been Deutche Post. But what are they do to? They were put there with a "never ever" job for life with pension. Why should they have to compete?

Wanderer78

skooterblue2 wrote: »

They dont need to, it probably suits accounting. They have one of the biggest shares of online retail (share price is over 1000 a share and growing). DHL wanted to come into Ireland about 25 years ago to buy An Posts parcel delivery service. They told the minister they wanted the delivery service but didnt want to deal with An Post and the unions.

Both parties left the table unresolved. An Post has lost most of billing services (gone electronic), their financial services are outsourced and they are the front office sales, parcel service is more expensive, its a mess of a company. Then there are the dopes who put money into prize bonds, you would be better off with mattress money.

Parcel Force, DHL. Elan and loads more are the choice of private industry. They could easily have been Deutche Post. But what are they do to? They were put there with a "never ever" job for life with pension. Why should they have to compete?

how can you compete against a major player such as amazon, when they make little or no profit from their main business?

KaneToad

Best: Lemass, Fitzgerald, Reynolds, Kenny
Worst: Haughey, Ahern