Budget stalking rifle

kunekunesika

OK so we're all aware of the the ruger American or savage axis 11 as budget rifles. Would you recommend a new one to someone starting out after deer? If so, what would be a suitable scope to match the spend on the rifle? I'm considering all new for the moment, for a lad considering starting. Your thoughts and experiences appreciated.

Rows Grower

kunekunesika wrote: »

OK so we're all aware of the the ruger American or savage axis 11 as budget rifles. Would you recommend a new one to someone starting out after deer? If so, what would be a suitable scope to match the spend on the rifle? I'm considering all new for the moment, for a lad considering starting. Your thoughts and experiences appreciated.

If he's not too sure he's going to stay at it then it would make more sense to start off with a good used set up. He won't take too much of a hit then if wants to sell it afterwards and most of the secondhand rifles will be well looked after.

I can't see any advantage in a first timer buying brand new gear to take out in the countryside but shur some people are just like that and if that's what he wants leave him at it.

kunekunesika

Just exploring the new option as a possibility. The 2nd hand route really depends on what turns up, when you're planning to purchase.

Cass

When you say budget, what is the price range you're thinking off?

kunekunesika

I looking at 1000eur, rifle with scope.???? Coming from savage axis 11 with scope package of 950. A Ruger American with a 350e scope couldn't be that bad? 😀

tudderone

I'd rather have a mediocre rifle with a good scope, than a good rifle with a crap scope, for deer shooting that is. The old advice of saving up money for a rifle and spending it on a scope and then getting a cheap rifle is still good. I'd be looking for an old CZ with maybe a fixed power schmidt and bender.

Cass

New is always nice. It's shiney, no-one else has used it and its yours.

Thing is most lads never get the full "life" use out of a rifle. IOW each year or few years then chop and change meaning the majority of rifles out there are still essentially new in that they're barely broke in. The other benefit to a second hand rifle is someone else has taken the hit on the new price.

Savage Axis, Ruger American, etc. will all do the job. For Deer and other hunting you need nothing more. Scope choice can be sorted easily enough. New, the cheapest and most reliable scope you could go for would be a Hawke. I've seen the Savage Axis packages. They've gone up in price to €950 as they used to be €750 (cheapest i seen it was $650 ack about 5 years ago). That being said i'd sooner go for the bare rifle then a scope of my choice than the 3-9 scope that comes on the rifle. Remember this rifle package is about $350 to $400 in the states so you're paying "huge" money for a cheap (not budget) rifle.

Looking at second hand will open your options a little, depending on what is out there, as you won't be limited to the Axis or Ruger (about the only two cheap ones out there). You might find a slightly better rifle or scope (if you're lucky both) and may even be lucky enough to come in at your €1,000 budget. It'll be what most class as a better rifle, but like everything its down to personal choice, it will however serve you as well as a new rifle.

I'm sure lads with a Savage Axis don't think they've bought a cheap rifle and frankly i don't know of any modern rifle that would be classed as crap. Most modern centrefire rifles are easily capable of tens of thousands of rounds and no one in this country will have fired that with a single rifle in its original format (well maybe not "no -one" but if there are people out there that have then you'll count them on one hand).

Have you something in mind you'd like. forget price while maintaining a close eye on your budget, is there something you'd fancy in terms of make, model, caliber, etc?

kunekunesika

My thinking was the same on the scope with the axis, just a little bit too basic. Hence the ruger with 350e worth of hawke seems like a reasonable proposal.
My normal recommendation would normally be a tikka new or second hand with a second hand German brand scope.
Don't want to be missing an obvious new option, just because of my preferences. I'm sure the lad in question will have loads of ideas after reading the magazines and Web.
Still curious to hear from anyone shooting either of ruger or savage rifles.

customrifle

I'd imagine you should be able to pick up a very clean Steyr pro hunter or cz in 308 and a mint s&b 8x56 for that budget

clivej

A nice second hand Tika in any of the stalking calibres would be a good choice. And chances are it would come with a half good scope as well.
Next on my list would be a CZ American, (Not the LUX model) a very good rifle.

Scope choice would have to be, at a minimum, a 4-12x50mm. If new then in the €350 minimum price range. But then if you have a good firle would be your first thing to change later to a better scope.

Me I'm shooting a Sako 75 laminated vermint €800 (Bought new, 13 years old now)
With a second hand Bushnell 4200 elite 6-24x50mm €400.(again 13 years old)
Shot a lot of Deer with that rifle and scope.

cookimonster

A lot of good advice here.
Coming from a starter rifle, a Marlin Xs7 in 243 and a mid range scope be wary of trade in prices at a later date.
Cass is right in relation to reliability and accuracy of to days modern rifles, most can't out shoot them accuracy wise and used in a hunting scenario won't shoot them out.
What I would say is that good glass is nice to have but if money is an issue then mid range models will surfice. It's very easy for others to spend our money or for a lad to say 'wait a bit longer save more money' that day may not come and there is always something around the corner to drain your savings.
What will be this lads main stalking scenario, will it be a lot of dawn and dusk or is it hill shooting? If it's mainly daylight hours then a middle road scope will suit him fine. Besides the diminishing returns on top glass for those extra few minutes before or after never really washed with me..... too many other factors to be considered. A lad with a good scope may see the deer in low light but his reticle is washed out, while a cheaper scope with a illuminated reticle may have a chance! Any how a mid range scope with whistles and bells or something like a S&B 8x56 or the classic 6x42.

Rifle wise, new you could go-

Rugar American + good secound hand glass (UK market)

Howa + good secound hand glass (UK market)

Mauser / Browning ......... but stretch the budget (contradicting myself here) for glass.

Otherwise I'd look at the secound hand market, there's plenty of gems out there that are ignored by others that still have a lot of life in them and will have a similar sale value if it is to be moved on.
Something like this .... https://mcbrides.ie/collections/guns/products/ruger-m77-mk11

Rows Grower

I'm shooting deer and the odd fox with a Savage model 10 FCP .308 with a 24" heavy barrel and an AccuTrigger.

Two years ago I advertised for a used, reliable, accurate rifle that would kill a Sika with one shot and wouldn't cost the earth and it is all of that.

The previous owner was very meticulous with looking after the rifle and keeping record of what ammo worked best in it and how many rounds it fired, there was 1,100 gone through it before I tried it at his local range, my first two shots with it from 100 yards went through the same hole and I still have the target.

I've tried a few different scopes on it but settled with a Hawke Sidewinder SR-Pro 4-16 x 50 (that I picked up secondhand), I have total confidence in both the rifle and the scope and honestly don't think I could blame either of them for a bad shot or could improve my accuracy with newer more expensive equipment. I still need to keep practicing and learning to get both the rifle and scope to perform anywhere near what they are capable of. The previous owner of the rifle shot sub MOA from 600 yards with it.

I've no intentions of shooting at anything from that distance because no matter how tasty venison is I'm not dragging the shagging thing a third of a mile over rough ground to just get back to where I shot it from. The rifle is not a light stalking rifle by any means but it's accurate, I use Federal Fusion 150 grain and it drops deer like something from a cartoon.

juice1304

You would be better off with a rosler titan ii or a winchester.
They are in the same price range but the build quality is far better. They are very accuate guns.

tudderone

No love for the remmy 700's ?

Richard308

I personally agree with cass and others. Great value in secondhand rifles here. Most of us would like to burn a barrel out stalking but never going to happen realistically. Steyr guarantee some of their rifles For 10,000 rounds. Axis rifles are very underrated. I’d buy a decent secondhand rifle, 600-800 and buy a s&b 6x42 or 8x56. If you don’t like stalking you’ll lose a couple of hundred quid if you sell. New scopes drop 40% once off the shelf. 350 hawke alone you’d be down 110-170 straight away. The S&b always has a market after. I like shiny new rifles too, like most. But am coming to the realization they’re possibly not worth it when you see genuine low round count rifles available and mint.

Uinseann_16

https://irishguntrader.ie/ads/cz-550-6-5x55-schmidt-and-bender-8x42/
Sellier and bellot 140gr SPs will run you 30 euro a box and hornady superformance is available for about 47 euro a box
Its a CZ so a quality rifle and the scope on top should last years and glass is second to none:pac:
Im shooting a 6.5x55 tikka right now and i cant fault it caliber wise kills just as well as my old .308 did

You wont beat the 700 euro price tag

tudderone

I was looking at getting maybe a .223 myself, An decent dealers websites to browse ? A lot of dealers seem very techno-phobic.

Uinseann_16

tudderone wrote: »

I was looking at getting maybe a .223 myself, An decent dealers websites to browse ? A lot of dealers seem very techno-phobic.

Theres a remmy 700 .223 for sale here on the for sale and wanted going for handy money:pac:

solarwinds

I also would not limit my choices to a particular calibre either. There are some nearly new rifles out there sitting on shelves for a long time because they are not the biggest or latest fad calibre.
Personally I have great love for the old 6.5x55 there is not much it cant do that some of new kids on the block claim they are the best at.
And an 8x56 is a fantastic scope I had one for years, a perfectly good stalking scope and none of the distraction of different magnification and parallex adjustments.

tudderone

I had a Schmidt and Bender 8x56 i bought for myself out of a Christmas bonus i got one year, it was unreal in bad light. I remember using it in a heavily wooded spot in Wicklow, at dusk and i could make out everything in not far off total darkness.

Feisar

Some serious value on the UK second hand market!

tudderone

Feisar wrote: »

Some serious value on the UK second hand market!

Its the pita of getting them over.

Feisar

tudderone wrote: »

Its the pita of getting them over.

Is it costly or just a hassle?

Uinseann_16

Feisar wrote: »

Is it costly or just a hassle?

Hassle plus there is a cost , if you keep an eye out here you can pick up some decent priced rifles:)
Though i would love a parker hale as a vintage rifle:P

Uinseann_16

I went ahead and looked up a few websites in Ireland to find some rifles that would suit
https://outdoorsports.ie/collections/guns/products/ruger-hawkeye-270-rifle
Heres a brand new ruger hawkeye for 785 euro :P its miles ahead of a ruger american and youd pick up a vortex scope for 300 with mounts just above your 1000 budget:pac:

https://www.sportsden.ie/catalog/product/view/id/13578/s/gun_4212/category/6/
Heres a Browning A bolt with a mod for 699 again 300 youd have a vortex scope and mounts

https://ardeesports.com/collections/centrefire-rifles/products/webley-scott-empire-vft-soft-touch-stock?variant=27720293843031
Heres another option for your Cheap new rifle 620 brand new in .243 or .308 a remmy clone

https://www.mccullaghsports.ie/rifles/
Cant link specific rifles here because of the outdated website but theyve a remmy .243 with mod heavy barrel laminate stock for 450
And a parker hale .270 with a S&B 8x56 for 650

https://www.tomkellyshootingsupplies.ie/guns/rifles?store-page=Rugger-American-308-Bolt-Action-Rifle-p138663501
Heres a ruger american predator in .308 these have a slightly heavier barrel than the standard american and are a nicer rifle imho

Theres just a few options

cookimonster

juice1304 wrote: »

You would be better off with a rosler titan ii or a winchester.
They are in the same price range but the build quality is far better. They are very accuate guns.

Any one stocking them here?

Uinseann_16

cookimonster wrote: »

Any one stocking them here?

Winchester XPRs yes theyre 550 afaik
the other ones nope

cookimonster

If I didn't have something similar already I'd snap that Parker Hale .270 up.

Old school all the way, gun maker, calibre and classic scope. At that price the rifle is going for just over €300.00.
I'm shooting a 60 year old 270 and it's still knocking deer.

kunekunesika

Thanks for the inputs. I'm the same as most contributors, 2nd hand 20yr old sako, with 2nd hand sb 3x12 x 50.
Was in the dealer today, picked up a Ruger, a sabatti and mauser 18, all new and just about in budget. Then I picked up a 2year old tikka, aaaaaaaaaaah. That's the one I d pick, no question. But the others all seemed grand.
Won, t be my decision, so wait and see.
Still curious to hear from someone using the ruger or savage.

Rows Grower

cookimonster wrote: »

If I didn't have something similar already I'd snap that Parker Hale .270 up.

Old school all the way, gun maker, calibre and classic scope. At that price the rifle is going for just over €300.00.
I'm shooting a 60 year old 270 and it's still knocking deer.

There's something classy about the old Parker Hale rifles alright, if I was ever changing a deer rifle one of them would be high on the list as a replacement.

tudderone

.308 Parker Hale, up noorth.


https://gundeal.co.uk/parker-hale-bolt-action-rifle-.308-.rifles-for-sale-5829


Another.

https://gundeal.co.uk/parker-hale-bolt-action-rifle-.308-.rifles-for-sale-6539

Rows Grower

tudderone wrote: »

.308 Parker Hale, up noorth.


https://gundeal.co.uk/parker-hale-bolt-action-rifle-.308-.rifles-for-sale-5829


Another.

https://gundeal.co.uk/parker-hale-bolt-action-rifle-.308-.rifles-for-sale-6539

There's a good old selection across the water too.

They are meant to be as reliable as the old Toyota Hiace.

Uinseann_16

tudderone wrote: »

.308 Parker Hale, up noorth.


https://gundeal.co.uk/parker-hale-bolt-action-rifle-.308-.rifles-for-sale-5829


Another.

https://gundeal.co.uk/parker-hale-bolt-action-rifle-.308-.rifles-for-sale-6539

Not to be a smarta** but id be careful buying older rifles from the north or UK more than likely someones been loading for it at one point in its life so throats can be eroded if someone was loading hot
I had the idea on buying a rifle from the UK before and thats what i was warned about

tudderone

Uinseann_16 wrote: »

Not to be a smarta** but id be careful buying older rifles from the north or UK more than likely someones been loading for it at one point in its life so throats can be eroded if someone was loading hot
I had the idea on buying a rifle from the UK before and thats what i was warned about

Doubt it, if you cannot knock deer with a standard .308 round you cannot knock them with anything. The .308 has plenty of power in standard loading. I heard these dealers stories before. I wanted a shotgun from the uk and asked a dealer to bring it in for me, well such fairytales of reasons not to buy a gun from there were hilarous :rolleyes:, "They proof test guns in the UK and they do have micro-cracks through out the action after it" was a particularly funny one.

Uinseann_16

tudderone wrote: »

Doubt it, if you cannot knock deer with a standard .308 round you cannot knock them with anything. The .308 has plenty of power in standard loading. I heard these dealers stories before. I wanted a shotgun from the uk and asked a dealer to bring it in for me, well such fairytales of reasons not to buy a gun from there were hilarous :rolleyes:, "They proof test guns in the UK and they do have micro-cracks through out the action after it" was a particularly funny one.

This wasnt from a dealer and loading .243 hotter than a 2 dollar pistol for "flat" shooting at foxes doesnt take long to wear out a barrel, Throat erosion is a issue on .243s when you use em like that

As for a .308 yeah you're fairly safe :pac:

tudderone

Uinseann_16 wrote: »

This wasnt from a dealer and loading .243 hotter than a 2 dollar pistol for "flat" shooting at foxes doesnt take long to wear out a barrel, Throat erosion is a issue on .243s when you use em like that

As for a .308 yeah you're fairly safe :pac:

I had a Sako .308 made in the 1960's that was imported from the UK, and it was still sub 1 inch at 100 yards after 40 years

Feisar

kunekunesika wrote: »

Thanks for the inputs. I'm the same as most contributors, 2nd hand 20yr old sako, with 2nd hand sb 3x12 x 50.
Was in the dealer today, picked up a Ruger, a sabatti and mauser 18, all new and just about in budget. Then I picked up a 2year old tikka, aaaaaaaaaaah. That's the one I d pick, no question. But the others all seemed grand.
Won, t be my decision, so wait and see.
Still curious to hear from someone using the ruger or savage.

A friend of mine has a Savage Axis. It shoots under an inch at 100 and functions flawlessly however there is no aaah factor.

ejg

My experience, and I have bought quite a few second hand "done nothing " rifles. 50% are shot out.

edi

ps, rifle is way more important than scope. Very easy to put a crosshair on the target, getting it to hit consistently is another story. The main thing is that it is so much easier to get a scope changed than getting a rifle changed. For me the rifle is more important.

Richard308

Well it’s a fact narrow necked cartridges will burn a barrel faster, ie a 243, 6.5 creedmore 220 swift will burn out faster than a 308. Channeling energy through a smaller hole will cause damage after a while.

Rows Grower

Feisar wrote: »

A friend of mine has a Savage Axis. It shoots under an inch at 100 and functions flawlessly however there is no aaah factor.

Unless you're a deer.

Rows Grower

ejg wrote: »

My experience, and I have bought quite a few second hand "done nothing " rifles. 50% are shot out.

edi

ps, rifle is way more important than scope. Very easy to put a crosshair on the target, getting it to hit consistently is another story. The main thing is that it is so much easier to get a scope changed than getting a rifle changed. For me the rifle is more important.

I'd be too inexperienced in the game to be the first to state this but to be honest I'm glad you said it because it's what I truly believe.

The days of only a couple of very expensive brands being worthwhile to use are long gone.

I've been out with fellas that spent over two and a half grand on a scope and expected awesome stuff altogether when dusk descended on us, it didn't happen.

A lot of guys are caught in the time warp of "save hard for a scope and spent the change on a rifle", those days are gone.

You could pick up a scope now for around a couple of hundred euro that will hold it's own with anything 10 times the price. The difference in quality isn't there to justify the difference in price.

cookimonster

Rows Grower wrote: »

You could pick up a scope now for around a couple of hundred euro that will hold it's own with anything 10 times the price. The difference in quality isn't there to justify the difference in price.

I'm tending to agree with you here. I will add that many of us are throwing to many whistles and bells at it as well. In the past few years I've jumped at bargain deals on secound hand scopes and have now got simple fixed power scopes on my stalking rifles.
I very rarely found myself looking for higher mag if anything there were several occasions I needed less. If I was to go down the variable power route again then I would be looking at something starting at 1x.

tudderone

cookimonster wrote: »

I'm tending to agree with you here. I will add that many of us are throwing to many whistles and bells at it as well. In the past few years I've jumped at bargain deals on secound hand scopes and have now got simple fixed power scopes on my stalking rifles.
I very rarely found myself looking for higher mag if anything there were several occasions I needed less. If I was to go down the variable power route again then I would be looking at something starting at 1x.

100%, Schmidt and Bender, Zeiss, swarovski fixed power scopes, which you can get secondhand, are the business for stalking. Variable power, with BDC turrets, adjustable objectives and all that are a faff in the field.

Feisar

tudderone wrote: »

100%, Schmidt and Bender, Zeiss, swarovski fixed power scopes, which you can get secondhand, are the business for stalking. Variable power, with BDC turrets, adjustable objectives and all that are a faff in the field.

Some lads have an aversion to second hand. After one buys a new scope/rifle, the second time it's brought out, it's second hand.

Edit - OK I'm being a bit simplistic about it but still. Some people get caught up in the out of the box factor.

Rows Grower

tudderone wrote: »

100%, Schmidt and Bender, Zeiss, swarovski fixed power scopes, which you can get secondhand, are the business for stalking. Variable power, with BDC turrets, adjustable objectives and all that are a faff in the field.

I reckon Hawke scopes would hold their own with any of the big brands when it comes to visibility at low light. Maybe it's just my eyes but don't knock it 'til you've tried it.

I'd love to see an actual proper side by side test done on a range of scopes at dusk looking at an object at say 100 or 200 yards.

tudderone

Rows Grower wrote: »

I reckon Hawke scopes would hold their own with any of the big brands when it comes to visibility at low light. Maybe it's just my eyes but don't knock it 'til you've tried it.

I'd love to see an actual proper side by side test done on a range of scopes at dusk looking at an object at say 100 or 200 yards.

You could well be right, i have no experience of Hawkes though. The brightest scope i ever seen was a high end Leopold, it was fantastic, and well out of my price range .

Feisar

Rows Grower wrote: »

I reckon Hawke scopes would hold their own with any of the big brands when it comes to visibility at low light. Maybe it's just my eyes but don't knock it 'til you've tried it.

I'd love to see an actual proper side by side test done on a range of scopes at dusk looking at an object at say 100 or 200 yards.

Myself and one of the lads are going to do this. The lineup is:

Leupold FX ll 2.5x20
Hawke 4x32
Leupold VX ll 6-18x40
Bushnell Banner 6-18x40/50???
Sightron 8-32x56
Nightforce 8-32x56

I know we'll be comparing apples with oranges in that the scopes aren't of relatively similar specs however it'll be interesting to see how the Hawke does.

Rows Grower

Did a bit of an experiment myself this evening with 4 spare Hawke scopes I have.

Went outside at 8.20pm and ranged two marks, one was the metal foot grips on an Eircom pole at 93 meters which is surrounded by forestry behind it, the other was the top of a spruce tree at 183 meters with the sky behind it. Both are in a north easterly direction and there is no artificial light whatsoever.

1 HD Sport 3-9 x 40 left at 9 mag

2 Endurance 3-12 x 50 at 12 mag

3 Eclipse 3-12 x50 set at 12 mag - 100 yards

4 Sidewinder 10 x 42 set at 100 yards

From 8.20pm to 9.30pm I did 5 tests at regular intervals, which consisted of picking up each scope from 1-4 starting first with the spruce tree then the pole scoring visibility from 1 -10 on each mark.

From the off the 3-9 was marginally behind the others for clarity but stayed consistent until the second last test at 9.10pm when it could still make out the tiniest branches on the spruce tree but the pole was, lets put it this way you wouldn't be chancing a shot at it never mind the iron grips.

The Sidewinder was marginally better than the Eclipse until the last test when I thought they were both equal.

The Endurance started off excellent and at 9.30pm was still very good, I could make out the small top branches on the spruce no bother and could identify the iron grips on the pole albiet just about.

I had intended to check them twice more in the next 20 minutes but the last frame of snooker between Ronnie O Sullivan and Mark Selby is to blame for the fact I didn't.

It was overcast here at 8.20pm and started to rain lightly about 8.40pm and hasn't stopped since.

The Endurance was the winner tonight but I reckon the 4-16 x 50 Sidewinder, 4-16 x 50 Edgar Brothers and 4-16 x 50 Tac Vector I have mounted on my rifles are better than it.

Next time I get a chance I'll try some of the other spare scopes I have against the Endurance and then try the ones mounted against the best one.

It's a bit of craic anyway.

meathstevie

tudderone wrote: »

I'd rather have a mediocre rifle with a good scope, than a good rifle with a crap scope, for deer shooting that is. The old advice of saving up money for a rifle and spending it on a scope and then getting a cheap rifle is still good. I'd be looking for an old CZ with maybe a fixed power schmidt and bender.

A secondhand CZ550 in any of the suitable calibers with a decent scope, realistically you don’t need more than 8x or 9x magnification and decent mounts. You should be able to find that secondhand for around your budget, maybe a bit more.

Hunter456

Lots of choices in regards of a budget rifle but what ever you buy it will be good enough to knock deer, i would not be spearing on a scope.

ejg

One trick is to get a second hand 6x42 or 8x56 Schmidt Bender scope for 250-300 Euro... use it a few years and then move on to a good quality 3-12 or similar. The 8x56 S&B can be sold on for the same money as bought.
edi