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Revocation of citizenship acquired through naturalisation

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    #152
    1hnr79jr65
    Registered Users Posts: 916 ✭✭✭1hnr79jr65


    Bob24 wrote: »
    1) This is already allowed by Ireland, so what you describe is the current situation.
    2) Ireland can’t force them to retain it though, especially if their previous country of citizenship doesn’t allow dual-citizenship.

    So there is no way to ensure all naturalised citizens retain a second citizenship.

    I am talking about not changing the law to make them revoke old citizenship. However i should have expanded that a treaty document should be drawn up to return people to their own country for such crimes if citizenship removed here regardless if they rescind their own nationality.


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    #153
    padser
    Registered Users Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭padser


    Yellow_Fern wrote: »
    On the topic of race in prison, I am really clueless so I did some digging and I was quick shocked. There disportionate racial make up in prisons for a long time. In 2008 there was 750 out of a total of 10,900. This seems massively over representative. It seems to gotten more equal in recent years.


    Just so I understand what you find shocking (I have a suspicion but just to be sure). Are you saying

    1) "It's absolutely shocking that racial minorities are disproportionately more likely to be involved in crime" OR
    2) "Racial minorities are more likely to be imprisoned which proves Irish justice system is systematically racist"


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    #154
    Yellow_Fern
    Registered Users Posts: 2,581 ✭✭✭Yellow_Fern


    1). But also how I have never heard of it. At one stage it was around 7% of inmates but only 1% of the general population. How Africans are younger and most crime is done by young men so that may explain some of it but its pretty baffling.


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    #155
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Sour Lemonz wrote: »
    I am talking about not changing the law to make them revoke old citizenship. However i should have expanded that a treaty document should be drawn up to return people to their own country for such crimes if citizenship removed here regardless if they rescind their own nationality.

    If they have chosen to give-up their previous citizenship or if the other country has taken it away from them, their "own" and only country is Ireland. Why would a former country of citizenship necessarily take them back?

    And to be clear, I am not saying it makes them a good citizen for Ireland (making them a citizen in the first place probably wasn’t a great idea); but thinking they have another "own" country which has to take them back is neither the practical nor the legal situation on the ground.

    Again, it goes back to understanding (or accepting) that once we issue someone with a certificate of naturalisation, Ireland legally becomes their country in the exact same way as it is for a citizen by birth. Nothing is forcing us to issue such certificate, and instead we could very well issue a permanent residence permit if we wanted to. But once it is issued the person is an Irish citizen like any other.


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    #156
    ExMachina1000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭ExMachina1000


    Akesh wrote: »
    No, citizenship should not be revoked. However, for crimes such as the one in the OP the person should never get out of prison. The problem is Ireland is a soft touch on crime. Instead of giving violent and sexual predators playstations, gardens, televisions etc. they should be doing long stretches.

    What if the person came here illegally in the first place


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    #157
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    ExMachina1000 wrote: »
    What if the person came here illegally in the first place

    Then they should never have been granted citizenship.


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    #158
    padser
    Registered Users Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭padser


    Yellow_Fern wrote: »
    1). But also how I have never heard of it. At one stage it was around 7% of inmates but only 1% of the general population. How Africans are younger and most crime is done by young men so that may explain some of it but its pretty baffling.

    It's never really mentioned as its "racist" to talk about how some races have higher crime rates.


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    #159
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    padser wrote: »
    It's never really mentioned as its "racist" to talk about how some races have higher crime rates.

    It's less about race and more to do with socio-economic factors. Africans coming to Western countries typically don't have the same level/quality of education (fake qualifications being common, or universities being inadequately funded) as those in the target nation, so they end up working at lower end jobs. Lower end jobs means having a lower income and so it brings about an inequality on a social level.

    However, we have so many NGOs and organisations talking about "equality" for migrants irrespective of the harsher realities of life, such as eligibility for employment and other concerns. So, migrants are told that they should receive the same standard of living as the native groups, simply because they're in the same country. And since they don't receive that same standard of living, then it must be connected with discrimination, which leads to anger or apathy towards the system, so, encouraging many of them towards making up the difference with crime. (or expressing their anger through violence)

    There's also the problem that values are not universal, and they weren't brought up under the same laws (or perspective of what the law represents) as westerners. So, often, they'll have less respect for western laws, because in their original nations, cops are untrustworthy, and the law is 'flexible'. Different application of laws depending on which group they belong to, as a result of corruption. Which leads to breaking western laws/conventions simply because their own experience tells them that's what people do.

    Just because people migrate to Europe, doesn't mean that they've embraced western culture/laws/values/perspectives.

    Citizenship shouldn't be awarded to people who haven't shown that they understand/accept the world they're choosing to reside in. There should be a "parole" or trial period prior to full citizenship, so that they can show they've accepted the western way of living. Too many people seem to think that western values are common worldwide... they're not.. and we shouldn't be assuming that people appreciate these values just because they've arrived on our shores looking for entry.

    As for revoking citizenship, it should be there as a final resort. Since we've done away with capital punishment, then exile is a fairly decent alternative... I'd be perfectly happy if people disqualified this way, were housed in a foreign prison, at the same cost that we provide for an Irish citizen. They serve their sentence, and afterwards, are banned for life from returning to Ireland/EU.


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    #160
    mr_fegelien
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,483 ✭✭✭mr_fegelien


    If someone were to become an Irish citizen, renounce the citizenship of their old counry and then commit a crime, could they be deported?


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    #161
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,919 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    mr_fegelien wrote: »
    If someone were to become an Irish citizen, renounce the citizenship of their old counry and then commit a crime, could they be deported?

    No international law you can’t make someone stateless.


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    #162
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,919 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Sour Lemonz wrote: »
    Thats the great thing about free thought and opinion, i disagree with your view and feel strongly about what i have debated. You and others are of course free to agree or disagree with me.

    From the practical side of things, well as i said i have no sympathy for people who commit such scummy crimes, however if they not born here then they should have no right to reside here if they committed such crimes.

    We all know our justice system is not going to be reformed any time soon or even far away.

    Indeed I think the disagreements here have been healthy and this is a great discussion thread.


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    #163
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,859 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Irish passports should be purely for Irish people.

    I've worked abroad on a visa and never felt entitled to anything in that country.

    Non-EUers coming here should be on a visa regardless of who they marry, if they have kids here or make investments. They are here as our guests and if they break the law they have broken the terms of their visa, and they go.

    No appeal.


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    #164
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,919 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Irish passports should be purely for Irish people.

    I've worked abroad on a visa and never felt entitled to anything in that country.

    Non-EUers coming here should be on a visa regardless of who they marry, if they have kids here or make investments. They are here as our guests and if they break the law they have broken the terms of their visa, and they go.

    No appeal.

    So no naturalization process whatsoever, no avenue for anyone not born Irish to earn Irish citizenship?


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    #165
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,859 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Overheal wrote: »
    So no naturalization process whatsoever, no avenue for anyone not born Irish to earn Irish citizenship?

    People with an Irish parent or grandparent currently have the right to Irish citizenship and of course that should remain.

    Why should somebody be able to "earn" Irish citizenship? :confused:


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    #166
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,104 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Why should somebody be able to "earn" Irish citizenship? :confused:
    Indeed. This is not America, or Canada or any other ex European colony founded and sustained by earning citizenship, though it seems to bear much repeating as it's being constantly applied to non colonies in Europe. Good luck in trying to get a Chinese passport, or Japanese, or Korean and they're dead right.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #167
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Overheal wrote: »
    So no naturalization process whatsoever, no avenue for anyone not born Irish to earn Irish citizenship?

    Citizenship isn't a competition it's not there to be won ,

    As it is anyone can walk into this country and claim asylum be denied a few years later they are still here and then be allowed to apply for and get citizenship with next to no background checks and no way to stop dangerous criminals .

    It's one way win for the foreign Nationalities coming to abuse our generous over welcoming government and people.


    The argument is well other countries give out citizenships so we should too , but other countries deport foreign criminals but no we can't do that were different
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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    #168
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,919 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Indeed. This is not America, or Canada or any other ex European colony founded and sustained by earning citizenship, though it seems to bear much repeating as it's being constantly applied to non colonies in Europe. Good luck in trying to get a Chinese passport, or Japanese, or Korean and they're dead right.

    And that’s a fine position for Ireland to take but it must go on to assert that.


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    #169
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,104 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Overheal wrote: »
    And that’s a fine position for Ireland to take but it must go on to assert that.
    We should and to a large degree we have. The removal of the loophole that led to birth passports(in which we were an outlier in Europe and pretty much everywhere else) by an overwhelming majority of the electorate was one indication. That damned near 99% of individuals applying to get in here now from the same nations that made up the 90's and early noughties influx are rejected another example. Sadly IMHO the gate was closed a little too late and we're going to see the problems with that going forward.
    Which makes a good launchboard for an argument for reviewing your naturalization process, but that's another matter than denaturalizing for a heinous crime.
    What can be given by a nation can and should be open to being taken away. We already do with personal liberty. I do a crime and I get put in gaol(hopefully, though...)

    I personally would be right behind revocation of citizenship because of criminal and other anti social behaviour if it were a pattern with an individual, or a heinous crime. Like Klaz pointed out exile was a large part of many judicial systems throughout history and it wouldn't leave anyone stateless because they're not originally from here.

    The problem is the West has lost it's spine and self confidence in many ways and is too damned apologetic and Ireland is very much near the top in that regard. Ironically because we weren't an imperial power carving up various parts of the world. The Irish media is very much slanted only one way, which only leaves nutters on facebook and youtube as alternatives. Ditto for our political class, none of whom will have to deal with the issues they lord over and are often looking to their EU position pension parachute, so unless the EU says nay...

    The Irish psyche is a mix of servility to the authority de jour and a large helping of shure it'll be grand and yes a general kindness(though very clannish), so unless things are put to them by secret ballot like the birth passports loophole, they'll do largely nothing really. I would bet the farm that today that ballot wouldn't be mentioned and you can be sure no way would the political class risk a ballot on the matter of this thread, because again I'd bet the farm it would pass.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #170
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Indeed. This is not America, or Canada or any other ex European colony founded and sustained by earning citizenship, though it seems to bear much repeating as it's being constantly applied to non colonies in Europe. Good luck in trying to get a Chinese passport, or Japanese, or Korean and they're dead right.

    Don’t know about China, but Japan and Korea actually have a naturalisation process.

    But the massive differences compared to Ireland are that:
    - the criteria are much more stringent
    - if you acquire their citizenship, you have to give-up any other citizenship you might have (which I think they are right about, as the idea of pledging allegiance to two different countries at the same time is a fallacy)
    - as a consequence of the other 2 points, the numbers of naturalised citizens are massively smaller and they can be fully assimilated (I insist on “assimilated” - i.e. made similar to the rest of the nation, and not just “integrated” - i.e. able to live within the country)


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    #171
    Donald Trump
    Registered Users Posts: 19,143 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Irish passports should be purely for Irish people.

    I've worked abroad on a visa and never felt entitled to anything in that country.

    Non-EUers coming here should be on a visa regardless of who they marry, if they have kids here or make investments. They are here as our guests and if they break the law they have broken the terms of their visa, and they go.

    No appeal.




    Marriage is different. You cannot have a clean rule for what you suggest in relation to marriage


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    #172
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,859 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Donald Trump wrote: »
    Marriage is different. You cannot have a clean rule for what you suggest in relation to marriage

    Of course you can.

    Nothing to stop the state in doing so.


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    #173
    McGiver
    Registered Users Posts: 4,434 ✭✭✭McGiver


    Zebra3 wrote:
    Nothing to stop the state in doing so.

    What do you suggest exactl?


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    #174
    DelaneyIn
    Registered Users Posts: 524 ✭✭✭DelaneyIn


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    People with an Irish parent or grandparent currently have the right to Irish citizenship and of course that should remain.

    Why should somebody be able to "earn" Irish citizenship? :confused:

    Should someone who has never lived or worked in Ireland be given citizenship purely as they have one Irish grandparent?

    Look at all the British citizens in the U.K. now using us as an European Union passport factory after Brexit? We give it to them for around €127.


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    #175
    DelaneyIn
    Registered Users Posts: 524 ✭✭✭DelaneyIn


    Overheal wrote: »
    So no naturalization process whatsoever, no avenue for anyone not born Irish to earn Irish citizenship?

    I’d rather no naturalisation process than the current set up. We’ve naturalised lads who went off and joined Isis for a bit of oul head hacking, we have naturalised international drug dealers on the run from Interpol, we have naturalised lads who went on to rape Irish grandmothers etc.

    It seems to be a money spinner for the government and a bit of a shambles.


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    #176
    DelaneyIn
    Registered Users Posts: 524 ✭✭✭DelaneyIn


    Donald Trump wrote: »
    Marriage is different. You cannot have a clean rule for what you suggest in relation to marriage

    We give it to the spouse of an Irish citizen after 36 months residence. No language or civics exam. You just fill in the forms, pay the fee and get the harp on the passport.

    No western country has such a lax criteria for being granted citizenship.


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    #177
    Donald Trump
    Registered Users Posts: 19,143 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    DelaneyIn wrote: »
    We give it to the spouse of an Irish citizen after 36 months residence. No language or civics exam. You just fill in the forms, pay the fee and get the harp on the passport.

    No western country has such a lax criteria for being granted citizenship.


    I think you might be a little bit wrong there in that conditions for obtaining citizenship through marriage would be broadly similar in most Western Countries.


    US is 3 years, UK is 3, France is 4, Spain is 1, Germany is 3 and so on.


    But don't let actual facts get in the way of a feeling you might have.


    My original point is that you cannot easily talk about deporting an naturalised spouse of a birthright citizen. Are you going to deport the Irish-born partner as well?


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    #178
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    DelaneyIn wrote: »
    Should someone who has never lived or worked in Ireland be given citizenship purely as they have one Irish grandparent?

    Look at all the British citizens in the U.K. now using us as an European Union passport factory after Brexit? We give it to them for around €127.

    Actually pre Iraq war (2nd) a lot of British soldiers applied for Irish passports based off grandparents being Irish ,so they could have an Irish passport on them if captured
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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    #179
    Donald Trump
    Registered Users Posts: 19,143 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    DelaneyIn wrote: »
    Should someone who has never lived or worked in Ireland be given citizenship purely as they have one Irish grandparent?

    Look at all the British citizens in the U.K. now using us as an European Union passport factory after Brexit? We give it to them for around €127.




    I think it can go back further than grandparent. As long as the connection is unbroken (that changed in the 90's too I think ... before that it could have been broken)


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    #180
    ExMachina1000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭ExMachina1000


    We are akin to the village bicycle. Give us a few drinks and we will give it away for nothing.

    Our passport is cheap. I don't mean financially


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    #181
    Donald Trump
    Registered Users Posts: 19,143 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Of course you can.

    Nothing to stop the state in doing so.




    Tell us your clean rule for doing so?


    Bear in mind that when you strip the naturalised spouse and deport them you are going to have to figure out how to deal with the spouse left behind, which you cannot deport, and who have rights!


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