Post primary return to schools roadmap

khalessi

maynooth_rules wrote: »

That's what should have been suggested at the start of July. If things had improved and our cases were low, then we could have upped that number. Instead Martin has put everything on a full opening, which will undoubtedly be against advice of NPHET. He is willing to risk all our health rather than back down from a suggestion that was never relaisitic. We have tablets for students so blended learning would work well, but the option hasn't even been given to us

Im just wondering how they missed phase 5, staggered reopening of schools in their own roadmap to reopening the country

RealJohn

I don’t think 50% attendance is much help. There isn’t much point in doing 50% attendance unless we’re doing it to halve class sizes, and if that’s the case, we still need twice as many teachers, to prepare/assign/correct work for the 50% who are not in attendance.
Or are we also saying that the students are only to receive 50% of the work to facilitate 50% attendance?
Am I missing something?

I mean sure, having 150 in instead of 300, or 400 in instead of 800, is better than having everyone in, but if we still have full classes, it’s still way above what’s being recommended for literally everywhere else.

Onshuh

RealJohn wrote:

I don’t think 50% attendance is much help. There isn’t much point in doing 50% attendance unless we’re doing it to halve class sizes, and if that’s the case, we still need twice as many teachers, to prepare/assign/correct work for the 50% who are not in attendance. Or are we also saying that the students are only to receive 50% of the work to facilitate 50% attendance? Am I missing something?

If you stream the class with half the students present and half at home and rotate who's in class so everyone gets face to face class time every week. For students who don't have broadband access, they could attend full time.

km79

Ok
It’s time for the Dept to share their remote /blended teaching plan for schools.
I mean they have surely been developing one over the past 6 months right .........

khalessi

km79 wrote: »

Ok
It’s time for the Dept to share their remote /blended teaching plan for schools.
I mean they have surely been developing one over the past 6 months right .........

NCCA secretly working on it:cool: THey are saving it for a Croke Park Day. Dont want to release prior to schools opening as it could give other options:cool:

Open or be dammed

RealJohn

Onshuh wrote: »

If you stream the class with half the students present and half at home and rotate who's in class so everyone gets face to face class time every week. For students who don't have broadband access, they could attend full time.

That doesn’t sound much better, and I haven’t consented to streaming myself. I don’t mind streaming my voice, but I don’t want to stream video, and I think I’m entitled to object to that.
However, without video, one of my subjects doesn’t really lend itself to being streamed. When I was working from home from March to June, I was making videos, but I did not feature in them.

combat14

doesnt sound like schools opening next week

Icyseanfitz

combat14 wrote: »

doesnt sound like schools opening next week

On the contrary it seems like no matter how bad it gets in the next week schools will be open

Leham

Onshuh wrote: »

If you stream the class with half the students present and half at home and rotate who's in class so everyone gets face to face class time every week. For students who don't have broadband access, they could attend full time.

This cant work, who minds the kids while theyre distance learning and parents have to go to work? How do students engage with practical subjects from home? The CBA for instance has to be completed in school and for most subjects it's a challenge trying to get through it on time while in class.
Distance learning didn't work last time, over 40% of my own students weren't engaging with it and speaking to colleagues it was the same for all of them.
Some students who did engage, it was obvious they didnt complete the work themselves, I know my students and their abilities, it was evident that parents had completed work for students.
I had a group of second year special needs students doing their CBA, they emailed me back work that I know they didn't complete themselves. Ive spoken to parents who told their children not to bother doing work for certain classes.
Disadvantaged students who don't have access to internet or computers at home and kids who as it is are hard to motivate while in class will fall behind.

Also, maybe this is just me but I wouldn't be comfortable having my classes live streamed into students homes, parents were incredibly critical of teachers during the last lockdown, imagine having them practically sitting in on our classes picking our lessons apart?

lulublue22

Leham wrote: »

This cant work, who minds the kids while theyre distance learning and parents have to go to work? How do students engage with practical subjects from home? The CBA for instance has to be completed in school and for most subjects it's a challenge trying to get through it on time while in class.
Distance learning didn't work last time, over 40% of my own students weren't engaging with it and speaking to colleagues it was the same for all of them.
Some students who did engage, it was obvious they didnt complete the work themselves, I know my students and their abilities, it was evident that parents had completed work for students.
I had a group of second year special needs students doing their CBA, they emailed me back work that I know they didn't complete themselves. Ive spoken to parents who told their children not to bother doing work for certain classes.
Disadvantaged students who don't have access to internet or computers at home and kids who as it is are hard to motivate while in class will fall behind.

Also, maybe this is just me but I wouldn't be comfortable having my classes live streamed into students homes, parents were incredibly critical of teachers during the last lockdown, imagine having them practically sitting in on our classes picking our lessons apart?

My main issue with live streaming is student confidentiality and dignity in the school setting. I would have one or two students who were prone to meltdowns. Don’t think that it’s fair or appropriate for that to be streamed into other peoples homes. I am primary level which I know is a different kettle of fish to secondary but if the schools close again and we return to online learning live streaming is not something I’d be happy with.

highly1111

Has anyone else not had their BOM meeting to ratify their covid procedures? I feel our place is leaving it very very late.

RealJohn

lulublue22 wrote: »

My main issue with live streaming is student confidentiality and dignity in the school setting. I would have one or two students who were prone to meltdowns. Don’t think that it’s fair or appropriate for that to be streamed into other peoples homes. I am primary level which I know is a different kettle of fish to secondary but if the schools close again and we return to online learning live streaming is not something I’d be happy with.

That’s another thing, yes. Even if I was okay with streaming live video of myself, which I’m not, wouldn’t you also need the consent for every student in the class, given that they would, or at least might, be asking questions, and you’d probably be using their names?
You can probably keep them off camera, but that’s about it.

Alex86Eire

Slightly off topic..

There's an article in the Irish Times this morning saying students will be able to access the grades that teachers calculated for them.
I thought we were told they wouldn't have access to them?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/leaving-cert-students-must-wait-a-week-after-results-day-to-see-teachers-estimates-1.4333498

Treppen

highly1111 wrote: »

Has anyone else not had their BOM meeting to ratify their covid procedures? I feel our place is leaving it very very late.

Tis a standoff

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PgAKzmWmuk

jimmytwotimes 2013

Alex86Eire wrote: »

Slightly off topic..

There's an article in the Irish Times this morning saying students will be able to access the grades that teachers calculated for them.
I thought we were told they wouldn't have access to them?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/leaving-cert-students-must-wait-a-week-after-results-day-to-see-teachers-estimates-1.4333498

We were told they would be able to see their grade and place in the class ranking if they wish to see it

Obviously they would get no details on any other students

am_zarathustra

RealJohn wrote: »

That’s another thing, yes. Even if I was okay with streaming live video of myself, which I’m not, wouldn’t you also need the consent for every student in the class, given that they would, or at least might, be asking questions, and you’d probably be using their names?
You can probably keep them off camera, but that’s about it.

There is no way every student will agree to this or that it can be done safely. There will be tictoks and insta videos of teachers almost immediately, never mind what could be done to vunerable kids with additional needs that could be seen or heard. Reduced timetable with more work at home to be completely like homework with an attenuated JC and LC would work, even cutting the hours kids are in school from 28 to 20 would free up teachers to split classes down. I know myself 1 hour with 12 kids is easily compatible for the students learning to 2 hours with 24. But this isn't about learning, it's about the economy, the government should just be honest

Treppen wrote: »

Tis a standoff

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PgAKzmWmuk

😂

lulublue22

am_zarathustra wrote: »

There is no way every student will agree to this or that it can be done safely. There will be tictoks and insta videos of teachers almost immediately, never mind what could be done to vunerable kids with additional needs that could be seen or heard. Reduced timetable with more work at home to be completely like homework with an attenuated JC and LC would work, even cutting the hours kids are in school from 28 to 20 would free up teachers to split classes down. I know myself 1 hour with 12 kids is easily compatible for the students learning to 2 hours with 24. But this isn't about learning, it's about the economy, the government should just be honest



😂

Totally agree with you - work could be set for the out of school time. It is just as productive and would encourage independent learning which is a skill a lot of children need to work on.

rainbowtrout

lulublue22 wrote: »

Totally agree with you - work could be set for the out of school time. It is just as productive and would encourage independent learning which is a skill a lot of children need to work on.

Parents also need to buy into this. Had a couple of emails before June from parents asking 'why is Johnny marked absent for X subject each day' and reply saying because he has never logged on for class and the reply that comes back is 'But I get him out of bed every morning and he's on the laptop all day'. Not on MS Teams he isn't. Or the parent who emailed saying her son had difficulty accessing Teams - poor internet etc, funny his sister living in the same home had no problem logging in daily.

lulublue22

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Parents also need to buy into this. Had a couple of emails before June from parents asking 'why is Johnny marked absent for X subject each day' and reply saying because he has never logged on for class and the reply that comes back is 'But I get him out of bed every morning and he's on the laptop all day'. Not on MS Teams he isn't. Or the parent who emailed saying her son had difficulty accessing Teams - poor internet etc, funny his sister living in the same home had no problem logging in daily.

Oh I know big time ( and I was one if those parents at times too - minus the email to the teacher ) It’s really not an easy situation for anyone .

jimmytwotimes 2013

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Parents also need to buy into this. Had a couple of emails before June from parents asking 'why is Johnny marked absent for X subject each day' and reply saying because he has never logged on for class and the reply that comes back is 'But I get him out of bed every morning and he's on the laptop all day'. Not on MS Teams he isn't. Or the parent who emailed saying her son had difficulty accessing Teams - poor internet etc, funny his sister living in the same home had no problem logging in daily.

Engagement was the biggest issue we faced with online learning. Parents, in certain cases, had no law over their children and some senior students found motivating themselves difficult.

That said, you could have guessed which students would engage fully with the process and which ones wouldn't before it started at all.

Funny to see the difficulties of online learning being presented in media as lazy teachers not doing a tap tho.

Rosita

am_zarathustra wrote: »

There is no way every student will agree to this or that it can be done safely. There will be tictoks and insta videos of teachers almost immediately, never mind what could be done to vunerable kids with additional needs that could be seen or heard. Reduced timetable with more work at home to be completely like homework with an attenuated JC and LC would work, even cutting the hours kids are in school from 28 to 20 would free up teachers to split classes down. I know myself 1 hour with 12 kids is easily compatible for the students learning to 2 hours with 24. But this isn't about learning, it's about the economy, the government should just be honest

😂

This is reality. I said it here recently that people talk about children needing an "education" but being wedded to the idea that that is deliverable only in the traditional 28 hour per week format. The situation that will prevail in one way or another (the threat of physical closure of schools, sickness, regular opportunist absenteeism from students, etc.) demands flexibility.

No harm in longer classes, less classes, less overall time, less than full days for all students if that's what works best. No harm either is less pointless homework which is aimed at expectation-management rather than genuinely developing the student. Teachers are supposed to be reflective people. In my reflections I have to say that no matter what corrections I do, no matter what "formative feedback" I give I tend to see the same errors recurring. I would see no loss in less volume and more common-sense when it comes to school-work.

Obviously, as you say, an attenuated JC and LC would need to reflect this and we all know how long we'd be waiting for details on those changes.

Rosita

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Engagement was the biggest issue we faced with online learning. Parents, in certain cases, had no law over their children and some senior students found motivating themselves difficult.

That said, you could have guessed which students would engage fully with the process and which ones wouldn't before it started at all.

Of course. The idea that being at home on-line suddenly demotivates students beyond all measure is laughable for teachers who see this in class in front of them anyway. There is no doubt that being at home trying to work/study is a very different vibe and is challenging but the same copers who cope in school will be the ones who cope best at home. The precise scenario might differ but the personnel involved probably won't.

rainbowtrout

And Elijah Burke won his case against the DES...


https://www.thejournal.ie/home-school-elijah-burke-calculated-grades-leaving-cert-court-5179900-Aug2020/

Treppen

rainbowtrout wrote: »

And Elijah Burke won his case against the DES...


https://www.thejournal.ie/home-school-elijah-burke-calculated-grades-leaving-cert-court-5179900-Aug2020/

Fair play, that family don't take no prisoners. https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/phd-student-awarded-13035-damages-against-nui-galway-over-final-viva-exam-delay-38868621.html

I wonder what grades she'll give him?

F5500

With a name like that I assume he's one of the Burkes of NUIG fame?

Fair play to them, would have been absolutely ridiculous if they were point blank excluded.

rainbowtrout

F5500 wrote: »

With a name like that I assume he's one of the Burkes of NUIG fame?

Fair play to them, would have been absolutely ridiculous if they were point blank excluded.

Yes, the same family. As a family they seem to be a bit of a dose, but it does highlight one of the problems highlighted here with predicted grades.

It'll be a brave DES employee who chooses to downgrade this lad.

RealJohn

Treppen wrote: »

I wonder what grades she'll give him?

He’ll be assessed independently, apparently.
It was ridiculous not to award him grades in the first place, as if the whole process would have been spotless, aside from one parent being allowed to award her child grades.

c.p.w.g.w

Treppen wrote: »

Fair play, that family don't take no prisoners. https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/phd-student-awarded-13035-damages-against-nui-galway-over-final-viva-exam-delay-38868621.html

I wonder what grades she'll give him?

Is that the family who are super religious?

rainbowtrout

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Is that the family who are super religious?

Yes. Protests outside Dail against gay marriage, abortion etc.

ClydeTallyBump

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Is that the family who are super religious?

4 of the older siblings got a lifetime ban from all NUIG societies over some of their protesting if I remember correctly.