Second Captains Part II

EltonJohn69

Did you smash it wrote: »

It’s bias maybe but Sutton’s points are valid. Martin O’Neill’s results were good. Beating Germany, Italy, Austria, Wales and Bosnia. We hadn’t a single example of beating sides like that since 2001. That wasnt good enough to really earn any praise from Ken at the time.

Now Ken is saying getting beat by Luxembourg at home is just losing a game, no biggie. It’s an epic moving of the standard a manager should be judged by.

Martin O Neil took over as Ireland manager 8 years ago. In those 8 years there has been a rapid decline in the quality of players in the Irish squad.

Did you smash it

EltonJohn69 wrote: »

Martin O Neil took over as Ireland manager 8 years ago. In those 8 years there has been a rapid decline in the quality of players in the Irish squad.

We were far from great 8 years ago horse. In 2012 we were laughed out of the euros. Then in 2016 we had a respectable tournament so it’s not even close to a sliding line of disimprovement in results. Results were fine till the very end of 2017, stayed bad in 2018. Got better in 2019 and have now hit all time lows in 2020 - 2021.

SheepsClothing

Did you smash it wrote: »

We were far from great 8 years ago horse. In 2012 we were laughed out of the euros. Then in 2016 we had a respectable tournament so it’s not even close to a sliding line of disimprovement in results. Results were fine till the very end of 2017, stayed bad in 2018. Got better in 2019 and have now hit all time lows in 2020 - 2021.

How good was that run to and at the Euros though? Martin O'Neill's Ireland did get some good results in important games which is to his credit, but he was fortunate as Ireland manager that the Euros was extended to 24 teams before his reign. Had that not happened, he wouldn't of qualified for the Euros (finishing third in the qualifying group) and he wouldn't have got out of the group at the competition (finishing third after beating Italy's second team in the final group game).

As for things getting better in 2019, that's true in some instances (Denmark and Switzerland draws), but not necessarily in others. We could have easily lost to Gibralter away and only beat them one nil in the home game. We were far more deserving of a defeat in the last Georgia away game than we were in this past Luxembourg game.

Did you smash it

SheepsClothing wrote: »

How good was that run to and at the Euros though? Martin O'Neill's Ireland did get some good results in important games which is to his credit, but he was fortunate as Ireland manager that the Euros was extended to 24 teams before his reign. Had that not happened, he wouldn't of qualified for the Euros (finishing third in the qualifying group) and he wouldn't have got out of the group at the competition (finishing third after beating Italy's second team in the final group game).

As for things getting better in 2019, that's true in some instances (Denmark and Switzerland draws), but not necessarily in others. We could have easily lost to Gibralter away and only beat them one nil in the home game. We were far more deserving of a defeat in the last Georgia away game than we were in this past Luxembourg game.

To be honest lads if you’re talking about the decline of the Irish international’s teams quality, it started in 2002 when Roy keane walked away in his prime.

If an Irish supporter wants to pick holes in getting to the last 16 of the euros or beating the world champions in the 14th year of a 20 year decline, well I’m not really gonna go for that.

505_

Just got around to listening to the football pod. I don’t actually listen as often as I used to but generally have enjoyed the lads work. Found the initial part of the pod tough work. Has Ken always been a massive Stephen Kenny fan or something?

42 to 98 in the world rankings is a big gap. Not insignificant as he tried to make out. I never expected an easy Ireland win. Luxembourg don’t roll over anymore. I think in their euro campaign their worst result was a 3-0 defeat to Portugal. But I still expect us to beat Luxembourg at home. All the talk of Collins playing for Luton and their striker playing for Dynamo Kiev. Dynamo are 7 points clear at the top of the league and he only has two league goals. Ok you can create a hypothesis to suit your argument there if you neglect to compare the other 10 players. They had a team full of players at similar or worse levels to our lads. I thought you could see the result coming, in the second half they got on top and deserved the win.

I know Ken provides a comedic value which I’ve always enjoyed in second captains. A bit lighter than other football pods. I’m not sure if that was what he was going for there or maybe he was just trying to create discussion with Eoin & Murph. I just found it such a strange take. It was almost like he was saying we should accept the result. His criticism of Coleman’s interview was strange too. It was a disgraceful performance. It was refreshing to hear Coleman speak honestly. Think he was critical of his emotion, but it’s an emotional game. Coleman knew that’s his last chance at playing in a World Cup gone. I’m sure if Coleman came out and said Luxembourg are seriously improved and it was an unfortunate result they’d surely be questioning his ambition. Enjoyable pod after Ken’s take though.

Did you smash it

505_ wrote: »

42 to 98 in the world rankings is a big gap.

The unmentioned part of that discussion is we were 32nd when Kenny took the reins.

den87

I love Ken, I love him even more now for not backing down to Sutton.

How much money did Martin o Neill Revolut Sutton to fight his corner I wonder?

Arghus

I listened to the clip. Sutton is even worse over the course of fifteen minutes. He even starts having a pop at Rory Smith. Rory Smith! He kept making these little shítty comments as well instead of counterpoints as it went on.

I think Ken lost them a bit at the start when he started talking about the Aviva being the cause of Ireland's misfortune and talking about the antics of John Delaney. He was right, but it was too complex of an answer for who he was debating, who I'm sure in the main they wouldn't have a clue who John Delaney even was.

I was a bit disappointed that Ken didn't wipe the floor with Sutton to be honest. Sutton didn't really know anything about Irish football and Ken could have shown up his contrarian nonsense, but Ken got a bit excited and unfocused himself in the debate.

It's funny how we can all understand the arguments Ken was making because we all know the the story inside and out for years - and then he comes up against someone who has only a bit of outside knowledge and is smug about it and doesn't want to know more.

Beau

Arghus wrote: »

I listened to the clip. Sutton is even worse over the course of fifteen minutes.

Where can I listen to the full clip?

Brock Turnpike

Arghus wrote: »

I listened to the clip. Sutton is even worse over the course of fifteen minutes. He even starts having a pop at Rory Smith. Rory Smith! He kept making these little shítty comments as well instead of counterpoints as it went on.

I think Ken lost them a bit at the start when he started talking about the Aviva being the cause of Ireland's misfortune and talking about the antics of John Delaney. He was right, but it was too complex of an answer for who he was debating, who I'm sure in the main they wouldn't have a clue who John Delaney even was.

I was a bit disappointed that Ken didn't wipe the floor with Sutton to be honest. Sutton didn't really know anything about Irish football and Ken could have shown up his contrarian nonsense, but Ken got a bit excited and unfocused himself in the debate.

It's funny how we can all understand the arguments Ken was making because we all know the the story inside and out for years - and then he comes up against someone who has only a bit of outside knowledge and is smug about it and doesn't want to know more.

Sutton is a clown. Shouting people down because he's not willing to be proven wrong.

Did you smash it

Sutton’s style is abrasive but popular with listeners. You don’t like it, fair enough.

His questions were good though and no one should have any problems with them unless you just don’t want to hear anything but pro Kenny views allowed.

My own opinion is this Kenny is a dead duck and this’ll end later in the year. That should be obvious to anyone.

yohan the great

Did you smash it wrote: »

Sutton’s style is abrasive but popular with listeners. You don’t like it, fair enough.

His questions were good though and no one should have any problems with them unless you just don’t want to hear anything but pro Kenny views allowed.

My own opinion is this Kenny is a dead duck and this’ll end later in the year. That should be obvious to anyone.

I don't mind Sutton having an opinion but it was all just to defend a previous manager of his

Arghus

Did you smash it wrote: »

Sutton’s style is abrasive but popular with listeners. You don’t like it, fair enough.

His questions were good though and no one should have any problems with them unless you just don’t want to hear anything but pro Kenny views allowed.

My own opinion is this Kenny is a dead duck and this’ll end later in the year. That should be obvious to anyone.

Were his questions that good? "Have you ever seen a fan score a goal?" Yes, ha, ha, very droll - but that wasn't the point Ken was making and that response was kind of indicative of the witless arguments he had. A lot of it was cheap smartarsery. Thought he came across terribly.

We used to have better players, no one is disputing that and O' Neill got us to the Euros in 2016, but repeatedly asking Ken if we got to the Euros in 2016 isn't really asking a good question.

Sutton just stated the obvious: we had better players in the past, we qualified for the odd tournament here and there and, yes, Martin O'Neill did get Ireland to the Euros. Those are all true, but it doesn't invalidate the wider point Ken was making that losing to Luxembourg is connected to the sorry state of decline in Irish football that's been going on for years. It's way more complicated than saying Kenny is a crap manager and the likes of O'Neill were great.

He knew nothing about anything else to do with Irish football. I wouldn't expect him to, he is an English pundit working in England, but I thought his points were largely absolute rubbish: far too simplistic, with no actual insight or knowledge about the subject and heavily biased in favour of an ex-coach of his. I'm sure the question of the sorry state of Irish youth development and the reasons for that were something he had literally never thought about in his life.

And there was something so smug and stupid about how he responded to Rory Smith's point about comparing the relative size and strength of countries and how some smaller nations have been improving etc, etc with a charge of "well, yeah, you're a hipster". What a cool guy. Someone else tries to enter a bit of nuance into the debate and he takes the piss. Outstanding analysis there from Sutton. I've no problem with contrarian viewpoints, but contrarians who can't back up what they are saying are the worst of the lot in my opinion.

BTW I'm not a fully paid up member of the church of Kenny. Quite possibly the job is too big for him and it's highly likely that he won't see beyond this campaign.

atilladehun

Is the longer clip better than the one they played on the show?

Every time Ken tried to speak Sutton just shouted over him. Ken had to shout in the end just to say anything. Anyone who behaves like Sutton did there on discussion shows is a nonsense contributor.

Arghus

atilladehun wrote: »

Is the longer clip better than the one they played on the show?

Every time Ken tried to speak Sutton just shouted over him. Ken had to shout in the end just to say anything. Anyone who behaves like Sutton did there on discussion shows is a nonsense contributor.

It was longer, about 15 minutes. Pretty good, entertaining.

Brock Turnpike

Did you smash it wrote: »

Sutton’s style is abrasive but popular with listeners. You don’t like it, fair enough.

His questions were good though and no one should have any problems with them unless you just don’t want to hear anything but pro Kenny views allowed.

My own opinion is this Kenny is a dead duck and this’ll end later in the year. That should be obvious to anyone.

His questions may well be good. But when he continually shouts people down as they try to answer the questions then he comes across as a boorish clown.

Did you smash it

I don’t intend to say anymore but I find Ken’s indignation over the attitude to Trap’s, Martin’s and Mick’s dismissive attitude to the quality of Irish players as somewhat rich given Second Captains have largely made their careers off coverage of football outside the island. It was ok for them to show no disregard for the last 15 years towards Irish domestic football but it wasn’t ok for Irish managers to look at our player pool and build a pragmatic plan to suit their limited talent. A limited talent pool largely borne out of Irish people not giving a **** about domestic football and only showing interest in the national team.

I listen to Dan Mcdonnell when it comes to knowing the score on Irish football. Dion Fanning and Ken live on their own planet in terms of their expectations of what the team should achieve ...well until recently, now their expectations have suddenly fallen to accept a Luxembourg defeat as normal. How convenient.

Beersmith

Well it certainly wasn't kens expectations last week. He wouldn't have taken a 1-0 win.
Funny that a poster here is saying Sutton was the contrarian when I think its very clear Ken is this week.

EltonJohn69

Brock Turnpike wrote: »

His questions may well be good. But when he continually shouts people down as they try to answer the questions then he comes across as a boorish clown.

CUT HIS MIC !!!! Get HIM OUT OF HERE !!!

deisedude

The big difference between this Ireland team and previous teams is the tap of 2nd generation and 3rd generation players has been turned down to a trickle.

Really Ireland/FAI as a footballing nation didn't deserve the success of the Jack years as we didn't earn it. Dont take this the wrong way the players were great and all but that success was largely built on persuading players of Irish descent to play for us while time and again neglecting putting the structures in place to develop our own players in Ireland.

Now that England have got their sh1t together the like of Grealish, Rice, Bamford etc arent declaring for us anymore and we have one of the worst national leagues in Europe and an academy structure with well-intentioned volunteers mainly instead of full time professional coaches.

We have no right to laugh at the like of Luxembourg, as a footballing nation they got their sh1t together and we are still scrambling trying to deal with the fallout of the Delaney debacle

kippy

deisedude wrote: »

The big difference between this Ireland team and previous teams is the tap of 2nd generation and 3rd generation players has been turned down to a trickle.

Really Ireland/FAI as a footballing nation didn't deserve the success of the Jack years as we didn't earn it. Dont take this the wrong way the players were great and all but that success was largely built on persuading players of Irish descent to play for us while time and again neglecting putting the structures in place to develop our own players in Ireland.

Now that England have got their sh1t together the like of Grealish, Rice, Bamford etc arent declaring for us anymore and we have one of the worst national leagues in Europe and an academy structure with well-intentioned volunteers mainly instead of full time professional coaches.

We have no right to laugh at the like of Luxembourg, as a footballing nation they got their sh1t together and we are still scrambling trying to deal with the fallout of the Delaney debacle

We will be decades dealing with the fallout of the Delaney debacle.
But everything you say above is bang on.

Say Your Number

Looking forward to hearing Roddy again, I remember after Ireland beat Estonia in 2011, both him and Ken were saying it was bad and would set the football team back years, would love if they dug up some audio of it.

deisedude

deisedude wrote: »

The big difference between this Ireland team and previous teams is the tap of 2nd generation and 3rd generation players has been turned down to a trickle.

Really Ireland/FAI as a footballing nation didn't deserve the success of the Jack years as we didn't earn it. Dont take this the wrong way the players were great and all but that success was largely built on persuading players of Irish descent to play for us while time and again neglecting putting the structures in place to develop our own players in Ireland.

Now that England have got their sh1t together the like of Grealish, Rice, Bamford etc arent declaring for us anymore and we have one of the worst national leagues in Europe and an academy structure with well-intentioned volunteers mainly instead of full time professional coaches.

We have no right to laugh at the like of Luxembourg, as a footballing nation they got their sh1t together and we are still scrambling trying to deal with the fallout of the Delaney debacle

Not seen a better thing summing things up all week despite loads trying. Nail on the head.

thenightman

deisedude wrote: »

The big difference between this Ireland team and previous teams is the tap of 2nd generation and 3rd generation players has been turned down to a trickle.

Really Ireland/FAI as a footballing nation didn't deserve the success of the Jack years as we didn't earn it. Dont take this the wrong way the players were great and all but that success was largely built on persuading players of Irish descent to play for us while time and again neglecting putting the structures in place to develop our own players in Ireland.

Now that England have got their sh1t together the like of Grealish, Rice, Bamford etc arent declaring for us anymore and we have one of the worst national leagues in Europe and an academy structure with well-intentioned volunteers mainly instead of full time professional coaches.

We have no right to laugh at the like of Luxembourg, as a footballing nation they got their sh1t together and we are still scrambling trying to deal with the fallout of the Delaney debacle

Player development fund slashed to a meagre 80 grand for 2021, while Mick McCarthy strolled off into the sunset last year after achieving nothing with a handy €1.1 million contract ending bonus, all thanks to big John's excellent negotiation skills and business acumen. We are ****ed for the foreseeable future. Any players that do come through will be a miracle to be honest.

Ol' Donie

Don't forget I'm off to see the queen tomorrow! Bleedin sap.

Don't forget 80k a year for player development, but €250k a year to Robbie Keane who has no role with the organisation.

You couldn't f*ck it up that badly if you tried.

MercuryBoy

Where did that €80k figure come from ? Had a google and could find any reference to it , all I saw was this https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/national-league/fai-comes-up-with-250-000-to-support-youth-development-1.3391231

atilladehun

Fully agree with Ken and the late night games. Pile of crap. I want to do something with my family at that stage of the day.

~Rebel~

MercuryBoy wrote: »

Where did that €80k figure come from ? Had a google and could find any reference to it , all I saw was this https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/national-league/fai-comes-up-with-250-000-to-support-youth-development-1.3391231

That link is from over 3 years ago, back in the ‘before-times’.

Here’s one with some of the cuts from just a few months ago.

https://www.the42.ie/fai-accounts-2019-5291885-Dec2020/

“Money ring fenced for Player Development was cut from €400,410 to €80,000.”

Running Balance

Is there anything better than when you are in a meeting and someone who doesnt listen to second captains says something that is in an audio bed.

A partner goes to me today we are cooking on gas now!! And all I could think of that audio bed where ken or maybe murph says it.

~Rebel~

atilladehun wrote: »

Fully agree with Ken and the late night games. Pile of crap. I want to do something with my family at that stage of the day.

Yup... a midweek 8pm kickoff is often a nice surprise for me, but a weekend one feels like a bit of a cheat.