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30kph coming to Dublin road near you? (note warning in post #254)

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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 44,018 CMod ✭✭✭✭ magicbastarder


    SeanW wrote: »
    It's not unusual for pedestrians to have to scramble out of the way of, or be hit by, lawbreaking cyclists.
    where do you live, that you need to have the reflexes of a ninja simply to survive?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,862 ✭✭✭ John_Rambo


    SeanW wrote: »
    It's not just motorists. Most of us who drive also walk frequently on our streets and find that the behaviour of cyclists at times is a menace.

    Then we come home and read from cyclists about how motorists are responsible for everything bar the Bubonic Plague ...

    It's not unusual for pedestrians to have to scramble out of the way of, or be hit by, lawbreaking cyclists. To be fair, I've never been hit by a cyclist but that's only down to luck, careful observation, a willingness to negotiate with lawbreakers on the footpath and at green-man crossings, and sometimes a combination of two or all three. But hey, let's focus on motorists who normally drive with manners :rolleyes:

    Good point, me neither. Obviously our joint experience of zero injuries or fatalities regarding cyclists are compatible with the norm in Ireland and the rest of the world. Not an issue thankfully.

    30kph has been in affect in my area for a while now. As a driver I've found it manageable but have been guilty of creeping upwards to 35kph when in a rush to get somewhere. As a parent with kids of an age where they'd be heading out to various sports events on their own I'm happy with the reduced speed limits.
    I do find it hard to keep below the speed limit on larger, wider roads but I've seen a reduction of road space in areas around the suburbs that will reduce the temptation to speed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,378 ✭✭✭✭ MJohnston


    SeanW wrote: »
    It's not just motorists. Most of us who drive also walk frequently on our streets and find that the behaviour of cyclists at times is a menace.

    Then we come home and read from cyclists about how motorists are responsible for everything bar the Bubonic Plague ...

    It's not unusual for pedestrians to have to scramble out of the way of, or be hit by, lawbreaking cyclists. To be fair, I've never been hit by a cyclist but that's only down to luck, careful observation, a willingness to negotiate with lawbreakers on the footpath and at green-man crossings, and sometimes a combination of two or all three. But hey, let's focus on motorists who normally drive with manners :rolleyes:

    99% of pedestrians deaths every year are caused by motorists. *99%* compared to 1% of pedestrian deaths caused by cyclists.

    That’s the kind of percentage that highlights that manners has absolutely fück all to do with this conversation. What you intended to do doesn’t matter when you’re talking about machines that can crush the bodies of humans in a second through pure accident.

    Manners aren’t the main problem with drivers (although it’s comically ignorant of you to claim that motorists are well mannered), it is ignorance, carelessness, lapses in concentration, and selfishness.

    These are the traits that turn driving into a lethal activity for other people on the streets, be they other drivers, pedestrians, or cyclists.

    And those are the reasons why there *will* be 30kph speed limits across most of Dublin soon. Those are the reasons why the new minister for transport is likely to push for the NTA to be allowed to run ANPR enforcement of bus lanes, red lights, yellow boxes and hopefully eventually speed limits. Those are the reasons why countless roads are being converted into pedestrian spaces, why Grangegorman was freed by stopping the rat run, why Blackrock is now a one-way system, why a car lane on the quays has been converted into cycle lanes. On and on. These things are done among many reasons because people don’t trust motorists to be considerate or even just keep their eyes on the road.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 44,018 CMod ✭✭✭✭ magicbastarder


    MJohnston wrote: »
    99% of pedestrians deaths every year are caused by motorists. *99%* compared to 1% of pedestrian deaths caused by cyclists.
    1%? Is it even that? The last one I know of in Ireland happened in 2002 or 2003, where it was determined the cyclist was to blame.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,378 ✭✭✭✭ MJohnston


    1%? Is it even that? The last one I know of in Ireland happened in 2002 or 2003, where it was determined the cyclist was to blame.

    I think there was one in Phoenix Park more recently than those, but yeah says it all that you can identify individual incidents of that, compared to the endless statistics of death by vehicular incompetence


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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,378 ✭✭✭✭ MJohnston


    MJohnston wrote: »
    I think there was one in Phoenix Park more recently than those, but yeah says it all that you can identify individual incidents of that, compared to the endless statistics of death by vehicular incompetence

    To correct myself - the collision in Phoenix Park between a pedestrian and a cyclist resulted in the death *of the cyclist*


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,193 ✭✭✭ Dublinstiofán


    I tried to drive at 30km/h earlier this afternoon in a 50km/h zone when nobody else was around. It’s not practical. I’d argue it’s more unsafe as people will be tailgating and trying to illegally overtake. Gonna be catastrophic to try have the whole city moving at that pace.

    Are cyclists going to have to reduce their speed to 30km/h aswell to keep the pedestrians safe? Is that what it’s all about? Keeping pedestrians safe?

    Never mind all the new speed cameras already popping up in the newest of the 30km/h zones.


  • Registered Users Posts: 115 ✭✭ Thingymebob


    Cyclists are not angels and I’m sick of the cyclists perfect/drivers are evil. In 2012 I was hit by a cyclist running a red light while I was crossing on the green walk on Leeson St - I was 90% across the road. I had two operations to pin my wrist and still suffer pain. The cyclist rode off, leaving me in the gutter, never to be seen again. I spent the best part of a year out of work, lost my job. Cyclists should be licensed to use the road, it’s a significant reason I have front and back Dash cameras.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭ Charles Babbage


    where do you live, that you need to have the reflexes of a ninja simply to survive?

    It doesn't really matter where he lives, the conduct of cyclists is not materially different in one place rather than the other.
    Cyclists are not angels and I’m sick of the cyclists perfect/drivers are evil. In 2012 I was hit by a cyclist running a red light while I was crossing on the green walk on Leeson St - I was 90% across the road. I had two operations to pin my wrist and still suffer pain. The cyclist rode off, leaving me in the gutter, never to be seen again. I spent the best part of a year out of work, lost my job. Cyclists should be licensed to use the road, it’s a significant reason I have front and back Dash cameras.

    My sympathies Thingymebob, almost every pedestrian has been hit by cyclists on one or more occasions. However, you get no sympathy here from the cyclo lobby who regard you as a necessary casualty in their campaign.
    Of course some motorists are reckless, but their behaviour has been corralled by some level of enforcement, they have to be tested, their vehicles are numbered. Cyclists are subject to little or no enforcement. For instance their is a strong case of traffic light cameras in Dublin, but the most frequent breakers of traffic lights are cyclists and no effort would be made to charge them or sanction them in any way.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,378 ✭✭✭✭ MJohnston


    It doesn't really matter where he lives, the conduct of cyclists is not materially different in one place rather than the other.

    What relevance is it to a thread about 30kph speed limits?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭ Charles Babbage


    MJohnston wrote: »
    What relevance is it to a thread about 30kph speed limits?

    I think you should address that question to the person who posted the comment I replied to.


  • Registered Users Posts: 58 ✭✭ M256


    where do you live, that you need to have the reflexes of a ninja simply to survive?
    In the Docklands there are areas where the dedicated cycle path goes next to the pedestrian path but then moves out to the road. Guess what, cyclists continue cycling on the pedestrian path. A few near misses as I walk there everyday to work. If the 30kmh limit is about safety cyclists should be equally regulated as their speeds are comparable.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,378 ✭✭✭✭ MJohnston


    I think you should address that question to the person who posted the comment I replied to.

    Just because you’re replying to someone doesn’t make it any less off topic.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 44,018 CMod ✭✭✭✭ magicbastarder


    MJohnston wrote: »
    I think there was one in Phoenix Park more recently than those, but yeah says it all that you can identify individual incidents of that, compared to the endless statistics of death by vehicular incompetence
    There was a collision down near Clonmel (I think) last year, which resulted in the death of the pedestrian. I'm not sure yet of the results of any inquest which might explain what happened.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,378 ✭✭✭✭ MJohnston


    M256 wrote: »
    In the Docklands there are areas where the dedicated cycle path goes next to the pedestrian path but then moves out to the road. Guess what, cyclists continue cycling on the pedestrian path.

    You mean like the awful cycle path at the Rockets restaurant? Hmm I wonder why it could be that cyclists don’t want to be forced out at a 90 degree angle into fast moving traffic?

    Now, maybe once the speed limit is 30kph it’ll be less terrifying for some people, as I’m sure most drivers will of course carefully respect the posted speed limits.

    Personally I just avoid that cycle path entirely and cycle on the road, making sure to take the lane. But then, that means I’m holding up precious traffic. Being a cyclist in conversation with motorists, you soon learn that you can’t win no matter what you do. They’re just irritated that you’re not as selfish as them!


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 44,018 CMod ✭✭✭✭ magicbastarder


    Are cyclists going to have to reduce their speed to 30km/h aswell to keep the pedestrians safe? Is that what it’s all about?
    Again, they won't because speed limits don't apply to pedal cycles and because cyclists doing more than 30km/h in these contexts are a rarity. Only an extremely fit cyclist could maintain 35km/h on the flat.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,378 ✭✭✭✭ MJohnston


    Again, they won't because speed limits don't apply to pedal cycles and because cyclists doing more than 30km/h in these contexts are a rarity. Only an extremely fit cyclist could maintain 35km/h on the flat.

    I’d say it’s almost physically impossible in the city centre to hit 30kph on a bike, unless you’re breaking red lights, but then you’re breaking a law.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,810 ✭✭✭ Duckjob


    Funny how a thread about drivers being tasked with being a bit more careful and responsible when driving in built up areas gets hijacked by posters frothing at the mouth and ends up being about the various "wrongdoings" of people on bikes.

    You've got to admire the deflectory skills.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,197 ✭✭✭✭ AndrewJRenko


    My sympathies Thingymebob, almost every pedestrian has been hit by cyclists on one or more occasions. However, you get no sympathy here from the cyclo lobby who regard you as a necessary casualty in their campaign.
    Of course some motorists are reckless, but their behaviour has been corralled by some level of enforcement, they have to be tested, their vehicles are numbered. Cyclists are subject to little or no enforcement. For instance their is a strong case of traffic light cameras in Dublin, but the most frequent breakers of traffic lights are cyclists and no effort would be made to charge them or sanction them in any way.

    Every pedestrian has been hit by a cyclist Charles? Time to wake up now from your dreamworld please. Where on earth did you get this from.

    And BTW, motorists are the most frequent breakers of traffic lights in Dublin - 88% of red light jumpers are motorists.
    http://kerrycyclingcampaign.org/but-all-drivers-break-the-lights/

    I tried to drive at 30km/h earlier this afternoon in a 50km/h zone when nobody else was around. It’s not practical. I’d argue it’s more unsafe as people will be tailgating and trying to illegally overtake. Gonna be catastrophic to try have the whole city moving at that pace.

    Are cyclists going to have to reduce their speed to 30km/h aswell to keep the pedestrians safe? Is that what it’s all about? Keeping pedestrians safe?
    Why exactly is not practical? What kind of speeds do you when driving around car parks? If the best reason you can come up for not managing the speed of drivers is that other drivers will drive even more recklessly, you're on slightly dodgy ground.
    MJohnston wrote: »
    I think there was one in Phoenix Park more recently than those, but yeah says it all that you can identify individual incidents of that, compared to the endless statistics of death by vehicular incompetence
    It was a cyclist that was killed in the Phoenix Park, as a result of a pedestrian stepping into the bike lane.
    M256 wrote: »
    If the 30kmh limit is about safety cyclists should be equally regulated as their speeds are comparable.
    Their speeds aren't really comparable, but even if they were, their momentum is in a completely different ballpark. It's the difference between a 10-20kg bike and a 1-3 tonne vehicle.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,645 ✭✭✭✭ Spook_ie


    Every pedestrian has been hit by a cyclist Charles? Time to wake up now from your dreamworld please. Where on earth did you get this from.

    And BTW, motorists are the most frequent breakers of traffic lights in Dublin - 88% of red light jumpers are motorists.
    http://kerrycyclingcampaign.org/but-all-drivers-break-the-lights/



    Why exactly is not practical? What kind of speeds do you when driving around car parks? If the best reason you can come up for not managing the speed of drivers is that other drivers will drive even more recklessly, you're on slightly dodgy ground.


    It was a cyclist that was killed in the Phoenix Park, as a result of a pedestrian stepping into the bike lane.


    Their speeds aren't really comparable, but even if they were, their momentum is in a completely different ballpark. It's the difference between a 10-20kg bike and a 1-3 tonne vehicle.

    Anyone ever wondered why it's always a 10-20kg bike and never a 10-20kg bike plus a 50 - 100kg rider? These bikes are obviously controlled by a person rather than being autonomous.

    And before AJR gets his knickers in a twist, it's merely an observation.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,810 ✭✭✭ Duckjob


    Spook_ie wrote: »
    Anyone ever wondered why it's always a 10-20kg bike and never a 10-20kg bike plus a 50 - 100kg rider? These bikes are obviously controlled by a person rather than being autonomous.

    And before AJR gets his knickers in a twist, it's merely an observation.


    Not a very astute observation. He compared it to a vehicle, not a vehicle + occupants.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,645 ✭✭✭✭ Spook_ie


    Duckjob wrote: »
    Not a very astute observation. He compared it to a vehicle, not a vehicle + occupants.

    Ah I knew somebody wouldn't have had his weetabix today, how many vehicles or bicycles do you see travelling at 30kph without occupants? ( OR cyclists )

    Edited to include cyclists before the pedants descend en masse


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,810 ✭✭✭ Duckjob


    Spook_ie wrote: »
    Ah I knew somebody wouldn't have had his weetabix today, how many vehicles or bicycles do you see travelling at 30kph without occupants? ( OR cyclists )

    None of either. We all know both cars and bikes need at least a driver/rider which is exactly why it's a fair comparison to not mention either.

    And it sounds to me like only a ballpark comparison anyway since the vehicle weight itself depending on model could vary in weight by over a tonne, plus there could be an additional 4-5 occupants which would add other 200-400kg.

    Its just strikes me as a bit of a petty thing to try to score a point on.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,378 ✭✭✭✭ MJohnston


    Submitted a strongly supportive response!

    I also mentioned the need to back up the lowered speed limits with a drastic, widespread program of road diets, footpath widening, rat run elimination, and lots of other street design measures that will induce motorists to subconsciously reduce their speed. I honestly think that's more important than enforcement, unless the enforcement can be near-omnipresent.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,645 ✭✭✭✭ Spook_ie


    Duckjob wrote: »
    None of either. We all know both cars and bikes need at least a driver/rider which is exactly why it's a fair comparison to not mention either.

    And it sounds to me like only a ballpark comparison anyway since the vehicle weight itself depending on model could vary in weight by over a tonne, plus there could be an additional 4-5 occupants which would add other 200-400kg.

    Its just strikes me as a bit of a petty thing to try to score a point on.

    Sorry, but if you are involved in a collision as a pedestrian or cyclist with another cyclist then the actual mass of what hits you will make a substantial difference.


    10kg bike as base line
    75kg rider
    Mass increase 650%

    2000kg car as base line
    75kg driver
    Mass increase 3.75%

    If you can't see that in an argument of cars v cycles that the mass of the cyclist makes a substantial difference, then you shouldn't be using 10kg v 2000kg as an argument

    Wonder why it's always cyclists that seem to think the actual cyclist has no mass or effect during a collision?


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,378 ✭✭✭✭ MJohnston


    What's that got to do with the public consultation on 30kph speed limits again?


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,197 ✭✭✭✭ AndrewJRenko


    Spook_ie wrote: »
    Sorry, but if you are involved in a collision as a pedestrian or cyclist with another cyclist then the actual mass of what hits you will make a substantial difference.


    10kg bike as base line
    75kg rider
    Mass increase 650%

    2000kg car as base line
    75kg driver
    Mass increase 3.75%

    If you can't see that in an argument of cars v cycles that the mass of the cyclist makes a substantial difference, then you shouldn't be using 10kg v 2000kg as an argument

    Wonder why it's always cyclists that seem to think the actual cyclist has no mass or effect during a collision?
    The bit that you seem to be missing is the 25-fold increase from the bike/cyclist/85kg to the car/driver/2075kg. That's the real problem.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,645 ✭✭✭✭ Spook_ie


    The bit that you seem to be missing is the 25-fold increase from the bike/cyclist/85kg to the car/driver/2075kg. That's the real problem.

    I'm not missing that at all, I'm just pointing out that in any calculation or comparison between cyclists and cars you must include the mass of the cyclist.

    The impact force of a 75kg cyclist and a 10kg cycle at 20Kph over a 0.5s duration is in the order of peak 1,888N average 944N

    The impact force of a 10kg cycle at 20Kph over a 0.5s duration is in the order of peak 222N average 111N

    Quite substantial differences if you happen to be the pedestrian or cyclist hit by the 10kg bicycle

    All calculations via https://www.gigacalculator.com/calculators/impact-force-calculator.php


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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,645 ✭✭✭✭ Spook_ie


    MJohnston wrote: »
    What's that got to do with the public consultation on 30kph speed limits again?

    About the same as AJR's contribution of 10-20kg bikes vs 1 to 3 tonne vehicles, did you want to ask that question of AJR or just me?


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