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30kph coming to Dublin road near you? (note warning in post #254)

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  • Registered Users Posts: 934 ✭✭✭ Roadhawk


    What on earth is happening here??? 30km "special limit" being rolled out as if it were the solution to all transport problems. Its clearly another tactic to drive motorists nuts and encourage them to walk, cycle and/or get public transport. I see loads posted on boards.ie about people in petrol or diesel vehicles having issues driving at low speeds but Im driving a modern EV (EQC) at the moment...UK import. It has a speed limiter the stops at 20mph (33kph)...thats 10% above the special limit? Cars are not built to crawl. 30kph is farce. Im glad to see that AGS are not enforcing it and i dont think anyone should be driving that slow. The 30 limit was initially rolled out to increase safety for pedestrians, cyclists and locals to the area but this year alone has shown an increase (double in April YTD) in pedestrian deaths on the road despite a huge decrease in vehicle activity due to the COVID situation.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 44,000 CMod ✭✭✭✭ magicbastarder


    Roadhawk wrote: »
    Im driving a modern EV (EQC) at the moment...UK import. It has a speed limiter the stops at 20mph (33kph)
    you have a UK car that is primary designed around imperial units rather than metric, that's the problem there. if it had been built for a metric market, the limiter would work to 30km/h.

    the reason for the increase in pedestrian deaths was, according to the gardai among other groups, that less traffic meant people were driving faster due to no congestion.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 44,000 CMod ✭✭✭✭ magicbastarder


    re the 'cars are not built to crawl' - maybe people should stop driving them in heavy traffic so.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,036 ✭✭✭ 07Lapierre


    Roadhawk wrote: »
    What on earth is happening here??? 30km "special limit" being rolled out as if it were the solution to all transport problems. Its clearly another tactic to drive motorists nuts and encourage them to walk, cycle and/or get public transport. I see loads posted on boards.ie about people in petrol or diesel vehicles having issues driving at low speeds but Im driving a modern EV (EQC) at the moment...UK import. It has a speed limiter the stops at 20mph (33kph)...thats 10% above the special limit? Cars are not built to crawl. 30kph is farce. Im glad to see that AGS are not enforcing it and i dont think anyone should be driving that slow. The 30 limit was initially rolled out to increase safety for pedestrians, cyclists and locals to the area but this year alone has shown an increase (double in April YTD) in pedestrian deaths on the road despite a huge decrease in vehicle activity due to the COVID situation.

    If a car can’t drive at 30kph or less, the problem is the driver, not the car.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,036 ✭✭✭ 07Lapierre


    you have a UK car that is primary designed around imperial units rather than metric, that's the problem there. if it had been built for a metric market, the limiter would work to 30km/h.

    the reason for the increase in pedestrian deaths was, according to the gardai among other groups, that less traffic meant people were driving faster due to no congestion.
    Yep, less car’s travelling faster on roads that had more pedestrians/ cyclists.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭ kenmm


    07Lapierre wrote: »
    If a car can’t drive at 30kph or less, the problem is the driver, not the car.

    I honestly don't get it - I really do estimate I have driven 100s of different vehicles over the years - I don't recall any of them refusing to drive at 20/30, spontaneously combust, randomly blow up or any other such nonsense.

    For those that say they cannot sufficiently control a car at low speeds - it's a real worry, that you are allowed to use a car on public roads without a basic grasp of how cars work or understanding on how to drive.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,036 ✭✭✭ 07Lapierre


    kenmm wrote: »
    I honestly don't get it - I really do estimate I have driven 100s of different vehicles over the years - I don't recall any of them refusing to drive at 20/30, spontaneously combust, randomly blow up or any other such nonsense.

    For those that say they cannot sufficiently control a car at low speeds - it's a real worry, that you are allowed to use a car on public roads without a basic grasp of how cars work or understanding on how to drive.

    Agree. No difference driving in 1st or 6th gear. It does require skill/experience and the driver has to pay attention to what he/she is doing. But if your trying to send a text or WhatsApp, while also pressing the Brake, steer your car etc. Then it's more complicated! ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,810 ✭✭✭ Duckjob


    The whole "cars can't do 30kph" thing is just a smokescreen. The real msg is :

    "I don't have the patience to drive at 30kph because I'm used to going around the place at pretty much whatever speed I want."


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,496 ✭✭✭ Manion


    Duckjob wrote: »
    The whole "cars can't do 30kph" thing is just a smokescreen. The real msg is :

    "I don't have the patience to drive at 30kph because I'm used to going around the place at pretty much whatever speed I want."

    The gear thing is a real thing just badly described here. There are certain speeds at which a car is comfortable holding and other speeds where a car is looking to change down or up. These points change based petrol versus diesel, engine size, 5 gear versus 6 and even car make.

    In my own car I've found that 30 kmh is the lowest speed I can drive at in 3rd and is that bit too high for 2nd. This means any slow down at all requires a gear change and the engine naturally wants to speed up.

    So anyway, agree or disagree with it as an excuse, there are definitely speeds that are easier to maintain and drive at.


    https://rightwaydriving.com.au/Gear-Changing-Techniques


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭ kenmm


    Manion wrote: »
    The gear thing is a real thing just badly described here. There are certain speeds at which a car is comfortable holding and other speeds where a car is looking to change down or up. These points change based petrol versus diesel, engine size, 5 gear versus 6 and even car make.

    In my own car I've found that 30 kmh is the lowest speed I can drive at in 3rd and is that bit too high for 2nd. This means any slow down at all requires a gear change and the engine naturally wants to speed up.

    So anyway, agree or disagree with it as an excuse, there are definitely speeds that are easier to maintain and drive at.


    https://rightwaydriving.com.au/Gear-Changing-Techniques

    No one's saying it's not a bit if a pain, but some make out it's impossible.

    It's not like everyone will be doing bang on 30 anyway. 30 is a touch too high for second then go 28, or more likely go at 35 and hold 3rd more comfortably..


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  • Registered Users Posts: 934 ✭✭✭ Roadhawk


    you have a UK car that is primary designed around imperial units rather than metric, that's the problem there. if it had been built for a metric market, the limiter would work to 30km/h.

    Yeah I suppose...should have bought local. The deals are just too attractive.
    the reason for the increase in pedestrian deaths was, according to the gardai among other groups, that less traffic meant people were driving faster due to no congestion.

    I can see the logic... I still don't see the sense in 30kph. As a large portion of the roads being revised for the special speed limit are 60kph... trips will take twice the time to complete if traveling at 30kph. I spend roughly 45 mins going to work and another 45 returning home...1.5 hours total per day travelling...if i was travelling at the suggested 30kph my travel time would at least double because the roads i take are currently comprised of 50, 60 and 80 zones. Adding another 1.5 hours on to my travel time takes away from time i need for my family. Adding to 7.5 hours per week sure thats nearly an extra work day (all because of a speed limit). Keep adding, 30 hours a month or 390 hours (16.25 days) per year... To put it into perspective...in 1.5 hours you could get from Dublin to galway...Dublin to Wexford... or Dublin to the NI boarder. Its pointless other then to annoy and deter motorists.
    07Lapierre wrote: »
    If a car can’t drive at 30kph or less, the problem is the driver, not the car.
    kenmm wrote: »
    I honestly don't get it - I really do estimate I have driven 100s of different vehicles over the years - I don't recall any of them refusing to drive at 20/30, spontaneously combust, randomly blow up or any other such nonsense.
    kenmm wrote: »
    For those that say they cannot sufficiently control a car at low speeds - it's a real worry, that you are allowed to use a car on public roads without a basic grasp of how cars work or understanding on how to drive.

    spontaneously combust...? randomly blow up...? Thats quite an imagination. I should have mentioned my car does 30kph quite comfortably. I can understand it might require more work from a driver if driving a manual and again might have a random shift up or down in an automatic but EVs don't have any of those complications...smooth at every point. (im not in car sales BTW:))
    Duckjob wrote: »
    The whole "cars can't do 30kph" thing is just a smokescreen. The real msg is :

    "I don't have the patience to drive at 30kph because I'm used to going around the place at pretty much whatever speed I want."

    I kind of agree with you here...i dont really have the patience to drive at 30kph because i dont have the time to travel that slow...thats not saying I do "whatever speed i want"...clearly there are speeds suited for a road but the the "special limit" 30kph zones should be kept for road works, school areas, carparks and the likes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,496 ✭✭✭ Manion


    kenmm wrote: »
    No one's saying it's not a bit if a pain, but some make out it's impossible.

    It's not like everyone will be doing bang on 30 anyway. 30 is a touch too high for second then go 28, or more likely go at 35 and hold 3rd more comfortably..

    35kmh is above the speed limit. I think thats kinda the point.
    Roadhawk wrote: »
    Yeah I suppose...should have bought local. The deals are just too attractive.



    I can see the logic... I still don't see the sense in 30kph. As a large portion of the roads being revised for the special speed limit are 60kph... trips will take twice the time to complete if traveling at 30kph. I spend roughly 45 mins going to work and another 45 returning home...1.5 hours total per day travelling...if i was travelling at the suggested 30kph my travel time would at least double because the roads i take are currently comprised of 50, 60 and 80 zones. Adding another 1.5 hours on to my travel time takes away from time i need for my family. Adding to 7.5 hours per week sure thats nearly an extra work day (all because of a speed limit). Keep adding, 30 hours a month or 390 hours (16.25 days) per year... To put it into perspective...in 1.5 hours you could get from Dublin to galway...Dublin to Wexford... or Dublin to the NI boarder. Its pointless other then to annoy and deter motorists.

    Your average city driving speed should be no where close to the speed limit. I'm sure your EV will give you an average speed indication. It's a non linear relationship between speed limit and progress. Depending on the roads you use a reduced speed limit could result in congestion that disproportionately delays you or you know makes very little difference. For instance I often opt to take the river road over the navan road coming into the city, lower speed limit but higher average speed.

    Also, just to throw this out there, you don't have a right to get from A to B in a certain time regardless of the cost to wider society. Your need fo a 45 minute commute doesn't trump a cyclists or a pedestrians right to make it home in one piece. This is all about balancing the need of people for the most good.

    I'm not judging btw, I've had penalty points for speeding and a long commute but no one wants a 50kmh speed limit outside their front door, always someone elses.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 44,000 CMod ✭✭✭✭ magicbastarder


    Roadhawk wrote: »
    As a large portion of the roads being revised for the special speed limit are 60kph... trips will take twice the time to complete if traveling at 30kph. I spend roughly 45 mins going to work and another 45 returning home...1.5 hours total per day travelling...if i was travelling at the suggested 30kph my travel time would at least double because the roads i take are currently comprised of 50, 60 and 80 zones. Adding another 1.5 hours on to my travel time takes away from time i need for my family. Adding to 7.5 hours per week sure thats nearly an extra work day (all because of a speed limit). Keep adding, 30 hours a month or 390 hours (16.25 days) per year...
    You *do* realise the new limits will only apply in Dublin city, and not all roads are affected? If you're taking 45 minutes traveling to work at 50 or 60km/h, you're arguing against something which is not actually happening, because you're not doing that on roads that will be changed.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭ kenmm


    Manion wrote: »
    35kmh is above the speed limit. I think thats kinda the point.



    Be practical. No one will stick to 30. That's not kinda the point the point is to reduce average. But even then just do 30. That comment is for the ones that moan.

    (I still don't buy that cars cannot be driven at 30 for a few kms. I have yet to sit in one, it's one of the silliest arguments I've heard).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭ kenmm


    Roadhawk wrote: »

    spontaneously combust...? randomly blow up...? Thats quite an imagination. I should have mentioned my car does 30kph quite comfortably. I can understand it might require more work from a driver if driving a manual and again might have a random shift up or down in an automatic but EVs don't have any of those complications...smooth at every point. (im not in car sales BTW:))

    The way some people are getting hysterical about it, you would think that's what's going to happen (many people over different threads are getting hysterical about not being a able to control their car at 30).


  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,374 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Peregrine


    Roadhawk wrote: »
    I can see the logic... I still don't see the sense in 30kph. As a large portion of the roads being revised for the special speed limit are 60kph... trips will take twice the time to complete if traveling at 30kph.

    There were only 25km of 60km/h roads in Dublin City to start with. The road network in Dublin City is over 1200km in length. They were all small sections spread out between areas like Bluebell, Finglas and Coolock. Of that, 12km will remain at 60km/h while 13km will be reduced to 50km/h. None will be reduced to 30km/h. It's highly unlikely you'll encounter more than a few km of 60km/h roads on any journey. If you were somehow managing to drive at 60km/h for, say a 3km stretch, without slowing down or stopping (close to impossible) then it will take you an extra 30 seconds to do it at 50km/h.
    Roadhawk wrote: »
    I spend roughly 45 mins going to work and another 45 returning home...1.5 hours total per day travelling...if i was travelling at the suggested 30kph my travel time would at least double because the roads i take are currently comprised of 50, 60 and 80 zones.

    That would be true if you were traveling at a constant 50km/h speed for 45 minutes. Which you aren't. If you were traveling at a constant 50km/h for 45 minutes, you would drive 38km which would bring you from one end of the Dublin City Council area (where the reduced speed limits are) to the other end three times. Not exactly a realistic journey.

    Also, there's only one section of 80km/h road in Dublin City and it's remaining at 80km/h.

    So either you haven't read the proposal properly or you're making stuff up.


  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,374 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Peregrine


    Roadhawk wrote: »
    Adding another 1.5 hours on to my travel time takes away from time i need for my family. Adding to 7.5 hours per week sure thats nearly an extra work day (all because of a speed limit). Keep adding, 30 hours a month or 390 hours (16.25 days) per year... To put it into perspective...in 1.5 hours you could get from Dublin to galway...Dublin to Wexford... or Dublin to the NI boarder.

    Even if what you're saying was correct and the journeys were realistic (which they aren't, see my last reply), if you really wanted to put it into perspective then how many hours do you think the 5 in 10 people killed at 50km/h and the 9 in 10 killed at 60km/h loses with their families?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,036 ✭✭✭ 07Lapierre


    Roadhawk wrote: »
    Y


    I kind of agree with you here...i dont really have the patience to drive at 30kph because i dont have the time to travel that slow

    your not alone there, but you should try it sometime. In the city centre, driving fast usually means you simply arrive at the next set of lights as they turn red. if everyone drove at a steady 30kph, the majority of lights would be green.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,496 ✭✭✭ Manion


    kenmm wrote: »
    Be practical. No one will stick to 30. That's not kinda the point the point is to reduce average. But even then just do 30. That comment is for the ones that moan.

    (I still don't buy that cars cannot be driven at 30 for a few kms. I have yet to sit in one, it's one of the silliest arguments I've heard).

    I think the point of a speed limit is to establish the upper limit of speed on a road. Its a bit mental to introduce a speed limit with the express idea that people exceed it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,983 ✭✭✭ VonLuck


    Those of you saying it's madness having a 50km/h speed limit on Gardiner Street, can you tell me what relevance does the proximity of O'Connell Street have on it?

    If the general population find it difficult to stay below a speed limit then the speed limit is wrong. I've been on plenty of streets where 30km/h felt appropriate, but somewhere like Gardiner Street is just not suitable in its current form. I believe it's due to the fact that there are multiple lanes in some sections, very wide lanes in the remainder, it is a long stretch of straight road and downhill on the way to the city centre.

    Despite that, I also feel that going 50km/h at the junction with Talbot Street is asking for trouble. Traffic calming measures are the way to go if they feel it's necessary to reduce the speed limit.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭ kenmm


    Manion wrote: »
    I think the point of a speed limit is to establish the upper limit of speed on a road. Its a bit mental to introduce a speed limit with the express idea that people exceed it.

    The comment was mainly for those that seem to think it's impossible. To them I say you may as well go over 30 slightly, even although it's ridiculous because I have yet to drive a car that cannot achieve this miraculous feat of engineering.

    Generally tho, it will be expected that the limit will not be adhered to. That's why motorways are built with safety features that can handle speeds far in excess of 120. A policy of having 30 limit is purely to bring the average down. *Ideally* everyone will be 30max, but the powers that be know this is unrealistic.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 44,000 CMod ✭✭✭✭ magicbastarder


    VonLuck wrote: »
    If the general population find it difficult to stay below a speed limit then the speed limit is wrong.
    does not compute.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,036 ✭✭✭ 07Lapierre


    VonLuck wrote: »
    Those of you saying it's madness having a 50km/h speed limit on Gardiner Street, can you tell me what relevance does the proximity of O'Connell Street have on it?

    If the general population find it difficult to stay below a speed limit then the speed limit is wrong. I've been on plenty of streets where 30km/h felt appropriate, but somewhere like Gardiner Street is just not suitable in its current form. I believe it's due to the fact that there are multiple lanes in some sections, very wide lanes in the remainder, it is a long stretch of straight road and downhill on the way to the city centre.

    Despite that, I also feel that going 50km/h at the junction with Talbot Street is asking for trouble. Traffic calming measures are the way to go if they feel it's necessary to reduce the speed limit.

    Then DCC need to put a big,wide cycle lane on Gardiner St.! Reduce the width of the road, maybe add a few traffic calming islands, a few trees etc. Roads can be engineered in such a way that high speed is not possible.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭ kenmm


    does not compute.

    It's easy, it's the roads fault. Just asking to be driven fast on.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,810 ✭✭✭ Duckjob


    kenmm wrote: »
    It's easy, it's the roads fault. Just asking to be driven fast on.

    I know you're being a bit sarcastic there, but actually there's quite a lot of truth in what you wrote - the road IS asking to be driven fast on.

    If you have a wide open street with a 30kph limit on it that sends very confusing mixed messages to the driver. ie. the sign tells them they need to stick under 30kph but everything about the road screams otherwise.

    If you want people to slow down, don't just tell them to slow down, SLOW them down. The actual limit signs should be just an additional reminder, secondary in importance to the actual street structure.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 44,000 CMod ✭✭✭✭ magicbastarder


    Duckjob wrote: »
    the sign tells them they need to stick under 30kph but everything about the road screams otherwise.
    depends on how you look at it. maybe it's that people are conditioned to expect that 'there's lots of space so i can drive fast'. the conditioning is to blame rather than the road.

    i don't get to a wide open space on foot and think 'i have to run across this landscape'.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,810 ✭✭✭ Duckjob


    depends on how you look at it. maybe it's that people are conditioned to expect that 'there's lots of space so i can drive fast'. the conditioning is to blame rather than the road.


    i don't get to a wide open space on foot and think 'i have to run across this landscape'.

    Probably because you know if you run for any length you'll be bo**oxed.

    Well, AFAIU the Dutch see roads like that as what is doing the conditioning, and they alter the streetscape to de-condition drivers from the feeling that they should drive fast. Seems to work pretty work for them. Much calmer atmospere on city streets there.

    Compare to Nth America/Canada where over the years the roads have been widened and straightened in the name of safety, and where cars launching themselves off roads into the sides of houses and buildings is quite a regular occurance.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,983 ✭✭✭ VonLuck


    does not compute.

    I don't know if you've ever heard of it, but there's a design guide for roads called the Design manual for Urban Streets (DMURS). In it it specifically says the below:

    Clearer sightlines and wide carriageways also allow for greater driver reaction time/error correction. Whilst this approach is sensible on isolated roads, within urban areas it can be counter productive as it may transfer risk to more vulnerable users. Research has found that:

      The speed at which drivers travel is principally influenced by the characteristics of the street environment
      If the design of a street creates the perception that it is safe to travel at higher speeds drivers will do so, even if this conflicts with the posted speed limit.
    By eliminating risk and promoting free-flowing conditions, drivers feel more inclined to drive at higher speeds. Furthermore if speed limits are perceived as not being appropriate to the environment, it can undermine the speed limit system as a whole. The extent to which speeding in urban areas is a problem has been identified in successive surveys carried out by the Road Safety Authority, with 3 out of 5 drivers on urban streets driving in excess of the posted speed limit.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 44,000 CMod ✭✭✭✭ magicbastarder


    i understand that, but the comment i was replying to was a plain statement 'if people don't stick to the limit, the limit is wrong'.
    that means most limits in ireland are wrong, if we took it at face value; other factors (such as fear of getting caught) play a huge role.

    in short, if a speed limit is not enforced, it does not exist. or it's a suggestion, not a limit. and it's been stated in black and white that the gardai are not currently enforcing the 30km/h limit where it already exists in dublin.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭ Infini


    07Lapierre wrote: »
    Then DCC need to put a big,wide cycle lane on Gardiner St.! Reduce the width of the road, maybe add a few traffic calming islands, a few trees etc. Roads can be engineered in such a way that high speed is not possible.

    What they should do is get rid of the poxy car parking on the Northbound side tbh down near the talbot st end and improve the cycle lanes on both sides. I acually think they should put better cycle infractrusture in too and really should be focusing on this along with far better syncronised traffic lighting and better traffic flow. Let's be honest some of the goddamn light stay red for up to 2min and only change green for as little as 10 seconds in places. That's why red light running has become a thing.

    The fact the 30km limit is not even enforced is hillarious too. Let's be honest I dont even know why they're suddenly having this huge focus on 30km when in actuallity when it's busy it's not possible to go that fast even due to traffic during busy times. It seems to be purely driven by certain spite fuelled anti-car elements of the council with a desire to fúck with people who drive rather than improve thing overall.

    Honestly I don't like driving into Dublin City, if anything I'd avoid it if I didn't have to work there, gave up cycling both because of craptacular weather and because cycling infrastructure is utterly crap to the point it's unsafe.


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